Okay, here are my answers to your questions: >>But my original question was whether intentions should play a role in our moral thinking? Absolutely. See part two regarding how to define "intention". >> Whether there should be an ethical distinction between a person who deliberately kills innocent people and one who does so unintentionally? There is no such thing as unintentional death by the IDF. If you fire a weapon in a civilian population, there is intention to kill. Period. Sure, not all soldiers like to murder 13 year old girls, but this is far from an isolated incident. How do you explain the pattern of murder at UN-run schools? Oh, let me guess there are terrorists in the school. There is another part of intention, not that of the foot soldier but the policy maker that places the occupation teenage soldier into a civilian population. This decision is an intentionally murderous decision. Just look at the numbers over the last four years, even the most conservative of estimates shows over 1/2 of Pal deaths are civilians and 1/2 of those are minors. I am sickened by people who still try to use the "there is no moral equivalence between their murders and our 'accidental killings'". There's nothing accidental about it, it is a campaign to occupy and terrorize through the death of their youth in the hope that they will just leave and you can have all their land.

It's too bad you're not courageous enough to at least put down your name instead of using an "initial." You are correct, it makes no difference who I am, but if what I'm saying has merit, then that's all that should matter, and to my credibility, even Israel's own human rights groups backs that up, unless you would also like to call them "liars.". The facts speak for themselves, and I think the time is long overdue to separate fact from fiction. Calling me names only proves that you cannot disprove anything I have said.

Good post, however, I disagree about the motives of most Israeli soldiers. You might be right but apart from the individual case(s) we have discussed, where is your evidence for this suggestion? We have ample proof that Palestinian suicide bombers target civillians because they openly admit this. Do you have proof that Israel deliberately targets civillians or do you infer this simply because there are more dead Palestininans than Israelis? Let me ask you another question. If a strong man fights with a weak man and defends himself is his act of self-defence less ethical just beacuse his attacker comes off worse as a result? As for your comment about what Hamas has to lose compared with what Israel has to lose, surely these are pragmatic considerations, rather than ethical ones? If a man has something in his possession, even if its rightfully mine, can we ethically justify any method used to reclaim it? I say no, perhaps you disagree? Returning to your pragmatic considerations, we know that the Palestinians will gain everything they claim to want through non-violence means, i.e. a state in the vast majority of the territories, with East Jerusalem as the capital and a compromise on the return of the refugees (incidentally the return of all refugeees is logically incompatible with a two-state solution). Violence however has set-back every aspiration the Palestinians have had, since the beginning of the conflict. It is the Palestinians who have everything to gain but they sure know how to go about it. Anyway, surely even you can admit that Hamas are beyond the pale. Hamas is committed to nothing less than the eradication of the state of Israel, primarily through violent means (if you don't believe me read their charter). Its one thing to argue about the intentions of Fatah who apparently accept the two-state solution but Hamas, are undeniably not interested in peace. Surely you agree that it is in the interests of the Palestinian people for their leadership to prevent violence? But since when is Hamas either the leadership of, or representative of the Palestinian people? Surely Hamas suicide bombers are even less ethical because they harm not just Israelis but also Palestinians interests? By the way its nice to be able to debate the issues without spitting venom at each other.

Who does Livingstone think he is by bad mouthing our Prime Minister,Ariel Sharon? Livingstone is not a politician,but a simple cival servant. He should be removed as the mayor of London, before he causes real harm. He is showing himself to be a very stupid man.

Hey, who cares who I am? It is not about me! I am not making a name for myself at Al Awda or whatever it is called. Stringing along a meaningless litany of words a la: apartheidracistgenocideethniccleansingterrorisedhumiliatetortureassassinate is propaganda not debate. You have effectively killed debate with your wholesale onslaught of accusations. Yawn! Who wants to debate fanatics,pseudo leftists stalinists? Besides dumping on Israel is the fashionable cause du jour! Nothing constructive there.

two comments. 1. Ken Livingstone's most recent diatribe in the Guardian, which clothes itself in the self-righteous mantle of its anti-Israel stance (Mar 4), is noteworthy for its bloviating tone and arrogant complacency. No need to back up assertions with facts; no need, for that matter, to worry about accuracy , let alone give evidence of expertise in foreign affairs. Rather we get an exhibitionist stunt of London's "bad boy" which somehow delights his fans who praise him for "sticking it" to the powers that be and delude themselves into thinking that Livingstone's rants are the "real thing" in a hypocritical world. Perhaps this would fly on a talk show of media-hungry personalities, but from an elected official, it is shocking. As an American (yes, an American), for all our faults, I cannot imagine anyone in public office, who could stay in office with these kinds of pronouncements and level of uncontrolled rancor. What makes the matter even worse is that this man represents one of the greatest cities in the world and its multicultural constituency. Where are the voices other than those of Jews that are raised up against him. Where is the vaunted civility of the British, which I have so much admired. 2. Reading the feedback on this article, however, demonstrates the serious flaw in the unrestrained (and mostly anonymous) spate of vituperative name calling or inane half-baked comments. These are hardly better than Ken Livingstone's rant. perhaps the whole issue deserves no better than this format that gives folks the opportunity to sound off or to air their nastiness. This is not progress.

Where is your outrage at the racist, sexist, homophobic Arab countries? Women and gays are murdered everyday in "honor killings" across the Middle East and all you can do is criticize Israel for defending itself against terrorists? I think Israel has shown a lot of restraint in dealing with these Islamic terrorist pigs. I'm American Indian and would rather live in a Jewish society than a backward killing Arab society anyday!

It's sad that you both have bought the Arab Islamic propaganda. If Israel was really "ethnic cleansing" the Arab "Palestinians" there wouldn't be any left. The fact is that these Arab terrorists are the ones advocating the ethnic cleansing of Jews. That is one of their goals that they openly promote. It's unbelievable that you both side with groups who have such hatred toward Jews. Marlene and Alex probably feel that they deserve to be killed by Arabs for the crime of being Jewish. How pathetic!

A people invented by Egyptian terrorist Arafat to destroy Israel. He admitted it in an interview. The "Palestinian" people who came from Syria and Jordan are now called the "indigenous" people of Israel and unfortunately the world believes this mythical history. The Arabs have brainwashed idiots like the ones on this board and millions of others. I have to admit that they are succeeding in their goal of destroying Israel. I don't see how Israel will survive if it gives away it's land and makes other concessions because of pressure from their enemies. I'm not Jewish but I do feel solidarity with the people of Israel. It's a travesty that the Jews have never been able to live peacefully on their homeland because the Arab Muslims want all of the Middle East to be free from infidels. "There will only be peace when the Arabs love their children more than they hate the Jews." Golda Meir

R in Toronto, it's comments like yours that keep me going, really make me feel warm inside. You wear your emotions on your sleeve and your anger exposes your lack of confidence in your statements. You resort to name calling as if your "fanatical" and "stalinist" blasts will actually affect anyone. Keep it up big R. Daisy, I have a few quotes for you if you can find time to read them from your busy day of lynching and burning crosses. "We must use terror, assassination, intimidation, land confiscation, and the cutting of all social services to rid the Galilee of its Arab population. -- David Ben-Gurion, May 1948, to the General Staff. From Ben-Gurion, A Biography, by Michael Ben-Zohar, Delacorte, New York 1978. "Jewish villages were built in the place of Arab villages. You do not even know the names of these Arab villages, and I do not blame you because geography books no longer exist. Not only do the books not exist, the Arab villages are not there either........There is not a single place built in this country that did not have a former Arab population." -- David Ben Gurion, quoted in The Jewish Paradox, by Nahum Goldmann, Weidenfeld and Nicolson, 1978, p. 99 FIZ, do you feel it necessary to criticize the discourse on the very site in which you post? Is your hypocrisy not excentuated by your very presence here? Nobody said this is progress, this is ventilation for racist bigots and an opportunity for people like myself to fuel the fire within them by presenting historical facts, disproving their propoganda. If you want to hang out here, why don't you climb down from your high horse at Princeton and join the proles for a while, you might learn something. BTW - I agree Stephen, it is nice

Alex is a very lazy propagandist. He has not read any of the books he uses as a reference. He lifted them from a website run by Mona Baker, the infamous anglo-egyptian who fired 2 of her translators because they were Israelis. 2 antizionists Israelis! Check out monabaker.com. Useful idiot indeed! BTW, don't flatter yourself, kid ( you are probably 15) you don't know whether I was angry or rolling myself in hysterics when I posted. I tell you what you do know. I You do know the propali rhetoric. And I am happy to get you all puffed up to spew it again and again. Hey, let us hear another round of it.

Religious war is being waged against us by Islamists, and the mayor blames the Jews! But most people are not aware of extreme anti-semitism in Israel. Laws in the U.S. (Europe?) make it illegal to discriminate based on race or religion. Desiring an Islamic state, the U.S. are breaking these laws. Demanding forcible, violent removal of Jews from the JEWISH homeland based on RACE-JEWS & RELIGION-JUDAISM. Christians in Palestinian Authority areas are brutally persecuted and live under sharia law. Their human rights destroyed by Oslo/Road Map. This MASSIVE ATTACK ON JUDAISM & CHRISTIANITY by U.S. EU, UN & Russia, has ominous implications for every Jew & Christian on earth. File lawsuits to STOP THE RELIGIOUS PERSECUTION & prevent theft of Jewish Land & HOLY PLACES! Jews & Christians must have human rights!!!

Mind if I fiske you, Marlene? "...any criticism of Israel is deemed as anti-semitic or inflaming "prejudice," the accusation now also being used by the Israeli Ambassador Zvi Heifetz..." Only real anti semitism like shown by mayor Livingsnazi is correctly labeled as such by Ambassador Heifetz. "If prejudice does exist, then the only one to be held largely responsible for that is Israel itself." Why don't we cast the blame on the indivdual? Take responsibility for your own actions. Israelis and Jews do not "make" rascists insult and attack them. "...continuous crimes and inhumane acts against the entire Palestinian people that reveals a policy of ethnic cleansing and racism, which is also supported by the Israel Committee Against Home Demolitions and other human rights organizations." Continuous crimes? Ethnic Cleansing? It is a crime to murder yes. The Palestinians are guilty of this in abundance. Five wars of agression, every one with genocide as the main goal. But let's get some perspective. I live in Detroit. The homicide rate is much worse in Detroit per capita than in Gaza, Sumeria, and Judea combined. Kind of hard to envision "continuous" crimes as you claim. If you need help in seeing ethnic cleansing you need look no further than the 20+ Arabic countries on this planet. Those leaders have accomplished something Hitler only dreamed of...making vast swathes of land Judenrein. "However, the problem is that the Mayor's voice reaches far wider audiences and echoes over greater distances than that of Israel's own human rights groups which the majority of Israelis choose to ignore." The majority of Israelis choose to ignore these groups because they are biased, communist propaganda outlets. Israelis are uch more sophisticated than you and your cohorts give them credit for. They see right thru lies quite well. "It seems ironic that a country that has practiced systematic brutality and discrimination against the Palestinians (and its own Arab citizens) would have anyone accusing others of prejudice and hatred." No what is ironic is that you fail to understand that the brutality is systematic from the Arab side. You also fail to realize that Israelis are Palestinians, so are Jordanians. And what discrimination against it's own citizens are you referring to? The favored loan status available to Arabs or the exemption from military service? "While Israel may not be in the process of systematically annihilating the Palestinians as what was done by the Nazis during World War II (as pointed out by Mayor Livingstone), the fact remains that the demonization and dehumanization of Jews during the 1930's is exactly what paved the way to genocide." It has not stopped. Have you seen Arabic channels lately? Have you read Arabic papers? Seen Arabic cartoons? Watched Abu Dhabi tv shows showing Sharon as a blood drinker? The Arab word is guilty of everything you falsely accuse Israel of and more! That is the irony of your words.

"Should the systematic abuse, humiliation, indiscriminate killing, wanton destruction of homes and property, ethnic cleansing, denial of medical care, and racial targeting of Palestinians who are also subjected to apartheid conditions, a dual system of law, and stripped of even their most basic human rights, be considered any better? "systematic abuse" Terrorfat abused the Arabs his entire career yet you say nothing. There is no systematic abuse. Arabs are free to worship and live in jewish communities. The abuse comes when Jews try to live in any Arab country on earth. "indiscriminate killing" this describes a suicide bomber. He kills indiscriminately. IDF return fire when fired upon. Terrorists use children as human shields. It is a shame that these cowards have to resort to using human population centers to wage war. "wanton destruction of homes and property" It is a good policy to punish the family that created a suicide bomber. They are taught from cradle to grave to hate Jews. The homes are torn down by neccessity or as part of the law. Nothing wanton about it. If they wanted to be wanton the IDF could just bulldoze a 1 kilometer strip around the green line, but they don't. Even though that would solve a lot of innocent Israelis from getting killed. "ethnic cleansing" please explain how it is ethnic cleansing when 1 in 5 Israeli is an Arab, and the majority of Israelis are not European. "apartheid conditions" Bantusians were set up to place the majority race in tightly controlled areas. None of them were allowed to live in white communites. Since 1 in 5 Israeli is an Arab, many are black and middle eastern, this does not hold true. "The Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide as adopted by the United Nations General Assembly on December 9, 1948 says otherwise. Full-scale genocide does not happen overnight." There was a genocide attempt. If people like you get their way it will be complete sometime. If the Arab armies in 1948 would have been victorious do you think there would have been a Jewish culture in Palestine today? Genocide is the systematic destruction of a culture. I wonder? According to Azzam Pasha, Secretary-General of the Arab League just before the war started he said, "this will be a war of extermination and a momentous massacre which will be spoken of like the Mongolian massacres and the Crusades." What do you suppose he meant by war of extermination or momentous massacre? What do you suppose Nasser meant when he said his, "our main task is to destroy Israel"? And what about Assad of Syria, "It is time to embark on a war of annihilation." War of annhiliation, war of extermination, momentous massacre? There is genocide, but you are twisting the facts as to who perpetrated it.

"I for one say bravo to Major Livingstone for having the courage to speak up knowing he would be subjected to such ridicule, and whose stand is supported by many other Jews, including myself." Livingston is not courageous. He is a coward, and so are you. You sit back in your New York loft typing away your smug little lies. You think posting your name is heroic, but in reality you would not dare post it if you had anything negative to say about these terrorists. Livingston is no hero, he chose the current rising tide of hatred to loosen his collar and speak his real mind. The British should be ashamed of this small minded idiot. "It is not time to recall Israel's Ambassador because of the Mayor's remarks, as your opinion suggests, but rather time for Israel to look at its own inhumanity and indifference to others who it thinks are of a lesser God, and to cease its representation of all Jews throughout the world" If your remark was true yes, but the Israelis are not intolerant nor are they indifferent to others. It is the vile and repulsive peoples you have chose to champion that are guilty of everything you accuse. If you want to impress me you can go to Saudi Arabia or Iran and walk around with your hair exposed and fight for women's rights loud and clear. You are too cowardly for that though so you have nothing but disgst from me.

Sever Plocker You would seem to be saying that you are not against the people of London, only against Ken Livingstone. And granted, being anti-Livingstone does not necessarily equate with being against Londoners generally. But your words and the way you use them could easily reinforce prejudice against these good people, even if you appreciate what fine citizens they are.

Good point Joseph. It does sound like anti-British slander going on. Besides, with all due respect Sharon IS a war criminal. Check out the slaughter of the refugees in Lebanon in the 1980's. He should have been locked up long ago.

The PLO murdered many thousands of Lebanon's Christians and maimed many more. The Lebanese Christian town of Damour treated Muslims who lived in nearby villages, for free in their hospital. The PLO returned this kindness with a horrifying onslaught of acts of great savagery, murdering hundreds of Damour's Christians. Rather than seeking to bring the PLO terrorists to justice for their crimes against innocent Christians, the PLO were rewarded: implanted into Israel through Oslo. Heavily armed and trained. Financed by the nations, they continue their bloody, barbaric jihad against the Jews and Christians of Israel.

if everytime when some european politician expresses his hatred for israel, israel responds by recalling its ambassador...then very soon you wont have any ambassadors in Europe left.

The annoying thing of those who criticize Israel is that they can't resist the temptation of falling into the anti-semitic trap. It's so bloody annoying. What? You can't think of anything original to say? Where does this compulsion to drag in the Holocaust come from? Atrocity? Genocide? War crimes? Geez you're so boring. There is plenty to say about Israel. Our politicians are corrupt and it's just plain wrong to occupy people. You can complain about the settlements, about the militairy actions, about the targetted killings about godsknows what. But why always try to deligitimise Israel? What for? I mean, obviously Israeli's wont listen if you tell them they are almost just as bad as Nazi's or that they don't have the right to exist. What are you thinking when you say such things? The Israeli population will agree and en masse will report to the International Criminal Court? Of all the conflicts in the world this one is the least deadly. More people die every week in Congo than Israeli's and Palestinians have died in 15 years of intifada and suicide attacks. So to speak about Israeli war crimes is like a firefighter pissing over a sigarette while the city is going up in flames. But more importand, this conflict is going to end whereas Congo or Sudan are conflicts where there is no end in sight. There's a whole lot of good Mr Livingstone could do over there. The real atrocities occur there. Israeli's and Palestinians don't need him, they are going to sort themselves out just fine-thankyouverymuch.

Micheal Since the beginning of the Second Intifada, more than 4,200 Palestinians have been killed and tens of thousands have been injured. The overwhelming majority were civilians. Oh did I fail to say they were innocent! Israel failed to investigate numerous killings of civilians by the Israeli Defense Forces, and no one has been held accountable for these deaths. Rarely are Palestinian witnesses consulted, and Palestinian deaths are generally treated less seriously than are Jewish Israeli deaths! ne Palestinian Child Killed, Two Men Assassinated - Israel violates ceasefire again 16 February 2005 In Beitunia, Ramallah area, two Palestinian boys were shot yesterday by Israeli security personnel, one of them killed. Two men were also assassinated in Nablus area by Israeli Occupation Forces in direct violation of the ceasefire. Did I say that they were innocent civilians!!!!!

The main message that I'm reading from my fellow Jews around the world is: where is the compassion and understanding? Where is the support from our fellow Londoners to back us Jews up? Its nowhere. Its the same as it ever was in Germany and in Warsaw in 1940. The fact is that people really dont give a damn about Jews and if Livingstone wants to stand up on the world stage and state clearly that Israel has no right to exist then who will say he is wrong.....? No-one! There are only one people who will stand up against people like Livingstone and thank GOD for Israel. Am Yisrael hai!

totally true Linda. its beyond belief that the US welfares Israel's existence. Israel is not a self sufficient country- it depends on outside(mostly US) aid. AND Israelis have universal health care, dental, and free university education. Do Americans?

While more Palestinians then Israelis died in this round of violence, which the Palestinians started, Most of the Palestinians who where killed were combatants, armed persons. Members of paramilitary organizations dedicated to the slaughter of Israeli civilians. And the overwhelming majority of our dead were innocent men, women and children targeted deliberately and systematically. Do Linda and Raphael consider armed Palestinians innocent?

Raphael, your statement is ignorant of the fact that the Palestinians are a welfare people. The Chinese were chased to an island of Formosa with no hand outs at all and have not become beggars. Welfare is meant to be a temporary situation. Palestinians have made it into a lifestyle. They have not built anything of substance. Can you name one single medical breakthru or scientific advance by Palestians? Other than terror. They receive 2 billion a year to perpetuate endless welfare. We need to cut them off completely and the terror will stop in no time.

The Pals receive only 200 million a year- compared to around 6 BILLION the Israeli/zionists receive- nothing compared to the ISraelis- and more Palestinians need medical care daily- do to the Israeli army.AND the ISRAELIS have bulldozed the infrastructure of the Palestinians, taken their livelihood (land , orchards, businesses) etc. ,some claim in the name of punishing or looking for terrorists, but ,mostly itschildren and old people,and good civilians. Have you been to GAZA? I HAVE.

But, from the pint of view of the Palestinians, the JEWS / ISRAELIS are the invaders of there land- given privelege and weapons to conquer the natives- Whether you see this or not- or follow the jewish version of the bible closely and think the land belongs to jews, is irrelavent to the Palestinians- Its is not their belief system- AND though the Jews say the Palestiniasn must respect their belief system- it works both ways- The jews must respect theirs.

Coyoto, Jack, I agree %100 with your statement.

Raphael,we Israelis do not have free unviversities,we do have to pay towards our health & dental care,depending on the strength of our monthly salaries. Nothing in Israel is free.

This is not about us owning the land. This is about us owning ourselves; being self-ruled, and not a perpetually depended minority. The right of the Jewish state of Israel to exist comes first from the right of the individual to be free. As for the old anti-Zionist canard about native and “evil Jewish invaders”, this land was a part of the Ottoman empire, and the Ottoman empire was a part of a European imperial politics, since before Napoleon. They took part in many of internal European wars, and most the agreements that followed. For the Palestinians/Muslims, we were not invaders, we undermined the imperial order and the dihimi system.