if proff was needed, that haLiqud is turning into a marginal lunatic fringe group where blind ideology stultifies any attempt to adapt to the changing realities on the ground. Mofaz, we "need" Yesh as much as we "need" Alzheimer's. We do need to retain control of the Jordan Valley FOR THE TIME BEING, and we should probably keep the major settlements abutting on the Green Line. But the rest of Yesh is a stone around our necks, which is splitting us internally, costing us money and lives, and is killing us morally. Thank G-d there is a party in haAretz normal, decent people can rely on: QADIMAH IM SHARON!

Eh? Whassat? Security interest in Judea and Samaria? An Israeli leader talking sanity? On economic issues Mofaz talks like a dumb populist, but if he can beat the other two horrible candidates, Sharon and Peretz, we'll forgive him that. For 12 years Israeli leaders have been saying "We don't need land at all. We're the only people on earth that doesn't need land. We might as well go back to Poland."

He knows it deep inside, like all those Israeli Political claws, that no peace can EVER be attained without giving us our 1967 lands back, but due to the insecure extremist constituency of Likud in partciular and Israel in general, they (all of them, from Peretz to Lapid to Sharon) lie to their public. What is ironic is, they lie and they know they lie, and their public knows they are lying and the world knows they lie to their public that knows they're lying !! What a lying messed up political arenea is that? No wonder Figlins prosper :-)

Beyond that a campaign promise is but an empty promise. For when the powers that be break the will of the best intended with arm twisting and threats nothing else seems to matter.

Salameh, your leaders all tell the truth, right? Arafat, Abbas, Dahlan--bunch of truth-tellers, right? Models of honesty! Your culture is so drenched in lies that you wouldn't recognize a true statement if you ever heard one.

However, that doesnt mean we cant share for peace, but people like the British who forced Jews from their homes in Judea and Samaria should mind their own business. I still want to know why there should be a second Arab Palestinian state? There already is one. Adjust the borders and more a few hundred thousand people on BOTH sides. IF they could move millions when Pakistan split from India, this is easy. The ONLY problem is Arabs DONT acknowledge the Jewish state or the fact that Jews are natives to the area. With the exception of Egypt all of todays Arab countries are made up ones. Israel isnt made up. It existed long before Arabs were there and is the only country that deserves to be there. Look, its a fact. Jews are the natives, just like the Native Americans in North America. The Temple Mount where the temples stood is 2,500 years old where JEws lived. The census of Jerusalem was Jewish majority until under British and Jordanian occupation they forced the Jews out. When people call the area west of the Jordan historic Palestine, in what history are we talking about? make believe? How can 25 years of calling the area Palestine make it so? There was a partition and its done. Israel and Jordan/Palestine. Adjust the border and be done with it. Jerusalem is the capital of Israel and Amman the capital of Jordan/Palestine.

You know they're lying and you dwell on it, and instead of coming up with a smart argument, you, like ALL brainwashed zionists, attack without even thinking :). As for our leaders, they surely don't lie to us, they tell us straight that we can not bring Haifa back, but we can attain a 2-state solution, and they are acting on that. They know they can deliver because they're basing their promised on international laws, not Kahanist trash, not Ovadia's hallucinations, and certainly not Messiakh koko-mambo-jumbo

Mofaz should put a sock in it. He lies the same way that he breathes. Does he think the "zionists" are stupid enough to believe that he will strenghten the "settlements" when he went along with destroying 23 ! thriving Jewish communities? Aside from Landau and Feiglin the pickings are slim. Before it is too late demand a Constitution with Jewish rights as its centerpiece, and a representative democracy in place of the corrupt part lists. I know the Arab appeasers will whine that I am a "rascist" for wanting Israel to declare its Jewish essence . Well boys and girls, first you need to tell the 22 Arab states who declare Jews and Christians persona non grata as far as ANY rights are concerned that they are rascist (and in some countries "Jew dogs" are not even allowed in) before you jump on my bones.

can your swing at the Likud leadership any cheaper?

I can only assume that you are a sick stupid antisemite. what I cannot imagine is why something of your ilk shud call on Hashem?

#8 Salameh you are so full of hate, it's not funny! And you write Gaza,/Palestine...in your dreams buddy, there is no such country as Palestine. Read your history.

Salameh, if there's a two-state solution, what will happen with the "right of return." What is your opinion on that?

MOFAZ SAID, "I promise to get rid of soup kitchens, because charity shouldn't take the place of social justice. It's the State that must take care of citizens, not soup kitchens." MOFAZ WANTS TO TRANSFER THE "THIRD SECTOR OR SOCIAL SECTOR, I.E. NON-PROFITS" TO THE GOVERNMENT. CLEARLY HE IS MORE NEO-SOCIALIST, THAN MOST KNEW.

I don't buddy with neither morrons nor haters, so buzz off and go get your bnai brith blackmail going, you have elections coming up in January

to try you for all the war crimes and terror you committed against Palestinian men, women, and children.

never win mo faz.......we will wait the pot on the fire yet lastly we will take what inside it please mo....faz use a spoon with a long long hand away from the pot i see you put your hand inthe fire if you are truly mean what you say so get the west bank carry it on your back with all the palastinian inside west bank and out side west bank and in gaza wich you left but gaza will not leave you simply they are palastinians like me and others it is true salamah salam salameh

#10: International law of today is not based on the state of affairs as they were 2000 years ago. Get real. Israel's borders and territorial claims are governed by various UN resolutuons, but most importantly by UN's recognition of the State of Israel. As far as the Palestinians...read on #15: True, Palestine does not exist as an international entity. Neither did East Timor five years ago, and neither did dozens of African countries fifty years ago. What's your point? International law is very clear on a group of people's right to self-determination. Please, both of you and others, cut this incessant bullshit and quack historical claims, which have no basis in logic, law or morality. Fact is, Israel has no legal right to areas beyond the "green line" and fact is also that the Palestinians (who very much DO exist) have every right to independence and self-determination. It may not fit in with your warped Weltanschauung, but most of the world recognizes this. Of course, we can always choose to disregard international law and live in isolation of the international community based on that law, but I'm not too keen on Israel turning into an Afghanistan under the Taliban.

Beacuse we will never accept to live in ghettos and cities surounded by walls. and jerusalem it is either the key for peace of the break point of all the chances to live in a peaceful land.

Jews/Israel with Taliban. Taliban was oppressive. The Jews have never created an oppressive regime. Well, the problem is that the Arabs who claim to be Palestinian have been assigned by the Greater Arab world to dislodge Israel by any means possible. They know no limit and are supported by the Arab, Muslim and anti-Semitic world. Today they claim Samaria but tomorrow it will be Tel Aviv. They are insatiable. The only reason they demand self-determination from the Jews is because they know they can get it from the Jews. They did not try to get it from the Hashemites when they controlled the area West of the Jordan River nor did they harrass the Egyptians when they were occupying Gaza. The Jews are easy. They will use the Israeli loopholes to snick into the Jewish state of Israe, receive the welfare checks, complain about the poor treatment and in addition get their state, a 23rd corrupt and violent Arab tyranny as if this world needs another Somalia.

Your points taken, I don't think you addressed the claims of the other writers, which are that the WB is disputed land, and will not be Palestinian land until negotiations with Israel under UNSCR 242 make it so. True, if there were to be a Pal state it would be in at least some and probably most of WB land, but as you've said in your other comments it wouldn't be all of it, and in any case in order to be consistent with UN Security Council resolutions, any such solution couldn't threaten Israel's "secure borders". It is the "secure borders" phrase that underpins the ENTIRE settlement enterprise from a legal perspective, and the only way to undermine it is for the Pals to show they can, like Jordan (the 50+% of "historic Palestine" that many writers quip about when they refer to "22%" that remains for a Pal state, leaving Jews with about 1/4 of "historic Palestine"), protect their boundaries and undermine the terrorist forces amongst them. You'll admit, I hope, that they have not done this. Maybe they can't, and if so, you'll have to accept that under law there CANNOT be a Pal state. So, really the issue comes down to "secure borders" and whether any agreement with the Pals will ensure that, in the likely event that the Pals do not fulfill their obligations (should we close our eyes and make an agreement with them anyway for a Pal state), Israel can defend itself by itself. Therefore, I think your claim that "incessant bullshit and quack historical claims..with no basis in logic, law or morality" is over reaching. Historical claims are necessary to establish connection to DISPUTED lands. Check. Basis in Logic is that a Pal state threatens our security, and it's not logical to withdraw from areas that threaten our security. Check. The Law is exclusively enfranchised in UNSC Resolutions (be aware that "various" resolutions are not all relevant to international law from a legal perspective, but may carry some "moral weight", but I'll address "morality" later), and this calls for reciprocal obligations being fulfilled CONCURRENTLY with a Pal state. Check. And MORALITY has ittle to add to international affairs that concerns any other nation, so why especially do we have to be "the Jesus Christ and hang ourselves on a cross for the world's sins?" For some reason, everybody expects us to fulfil this role, and they get really upset when we don't play according to their script. Let's be honest, Morality has no role to play in international affairs, as it should be obvious by now that third worldism and liberalism has so subjectified the term "morality" as to leave it with no objective meaning that can be agreed on by all. For example, most Pal supporters think that it's immoral for Jews to have gotten a state, and to defend themselves within it, irrespective of their history at the hands of the world (including Arabs), in in this specific Land, solely because they feel that it's "immoral" to restrict Arab national asperations settlement in the Holy Land in a way that permits this. At some opint, Michael, you need to decide at what point you are willing to throw yourself on a handgranade for what you believe in. I, here in Israel, literally face this dilemma and it's especially real to me. By contrast, what do you do when you have an opponent who will literally throw himself on a handgranade for everything! Not only that, he'll where a skirt of them and walk into a shopping mall and blow them up. So, I hear where you're coming from, but I don't think it's proper for you to be so dismissive of other views or as selective in your defense of your view without pointing out where it's weak.

I spoke in error in a previous post. Here are the facts I've uncovered: The division of "Historic Palestine" in 1947 called for the Jews to get 17% of the Palestine Mandate, and Arabs to get 83%, which includes 7% west of the Jordan river and 76%, known today as "Jordan", east of the Jordan River. In broad terms, this was in 1947 considered "fair". The Jewish leadership accepted it, and the Arab leadership refused to. Arabs argued that since at that time they were the majority population west of the Jordan that they should get more land west of the Jordan, but the commission that divided the land apparently thought that would result in an unsustainable Jewish state, and that 80%+ of "Historic Palestine" was enough to support a viable Arab state. The areas that were not to be given to Jewish settlement _west of the Jordan river_ amounted to about 33%, then, of the territory of "Historic Palestine", but today, after several wars, that amount has been reduced to 22% of the area west of the Jordan River, as was correctly stated by others. I was wrong, but let's look at this number in more detail: 1) The 22% includes almost ALL the areas of Judea and Samaria, like Beit El, Jerusalem, Hebron, Schem and others that are of the deepest significance historically to Jews. THe Pals want these areas to be, ironically, free of Jews in any political settlement with them, a requirement that has not been made reciprocally by Jews with regard to Arabs living in their territories. As yet, the Jews haven't even required to redraw the boundary between the Arab and Jewish states such that Arabs inside Israel would be inside Palestine. 2) the area within Israel's portion includes the Negev desert, the entire part of which is south of Beer Sheva is for all intents and purposes uninhabitable and can only support sparse populations of peoples who can survive without infrastructure. These are the Beduin, and they are Arabs. For all intents and purposes, Arabs populate this area irrespective of it being part of a Jewish state, and it should be noted that this area was not part of historic Jewish land at the time of the Jewish Commonwealths, though the West Bank was. 3) when you eliminate the Negev south of Beer Sheva from the equation, it seems to me that the habitable areas of a state formed of the WB and Israel are approximately equal in size, that Arab settelement in any case takes more than 22% of the land, and that the claims of 22% seem to be designed to purposefully mislead people to seeing Israel's portion as unfairly large (which is difficult to understand when you consider the small portion that it is of the original Palestine Mandate, and that Arabs received about 80% of that).

Re-take Jewish Gaza! It's been transformed into terrorist training camps - the "peace" promised by PLO/PA. Global jihad is empowered as Islamofascists receive amazing help in the jihad against Israel from the international community. The entire world will pay the price of an Islamic terror state in Israel. THERE NEVER WAS AN ARAB COUNTRY OF PALESTINE. Jerusalem was NEVER the capital of any Arab or Muslim entity. JERUSALEM IS MENTIONED OVER 800 TIMES IN THE BIBLE, not once in the Koran. Around 1948, Arabs violently ETHNICALLY CLEANSED about one million Jews from Arab countries. Arab governments seized the land, homes, bank accounts, businesses and assets of the Jews. Most of the Jewish refugees fled to Israel. THERE MUST NOW BE A JUST SETTLEMENT FOR THE JEWISH REFUGEES AND THEIR DESCENDANTS-COMPENSATION IN LAND AND FINANCES. In 1922, Britain illegally gave MOST OF PALESTINE-80% TO THE ARABS. The area became Jordan, giving the Arabs an Arab Palestinian state on JEWISH land. IT WAS ETHNICALLY CLEANSED OF JEWS. This area is part of ancient, Biblical Israel, and along with present-day Israel, including Judea, Samaria, Gaza and the Golan was recognized by the League of Nations as the Jewish homeland. In 1948, Egypt invaded Gaza and ethnically cleansed ALL Jews. In 1948, Jordan invaded Judea-Samaria (West Bank) and east Jerusalem and ETHNICALLY CLEANSED ALL JEWS. Jordan, opposing G-D DESTROYED 58 synagogues in Jerusalem. In 1967 when Israel won Islam's religious war of aggression against it, Jews returned to the areas of their homeland they had been ethnically cleansed from for 19 years. Islamofascists DECEITFULLY call this return "occupation". Under international law, territories are considered "occupied" only when taken in an act of aggression which does not apply to Israel. Judea, Samaria and Gaza are not 'occupied territories' according to international law because they were not taken from any foreign sovereign. ALL of the Jewish land, homes, properties and businesses stolen from the Jews in the 1948 Islamic invasion must be returned to the Jews IMMEDIATELY

In 1922, Britian illegally gave most of JEWISH Palestine, 80%, to Arabs giving Arab Muslims their Arab Palestinian state. This Jewish land became Jordan.

Yediot Ahronot-Hebrew, 1Dec05 The Situation at the Rafiah Crossing - Total Neglect - Yossi Yehoshua Less than a week has gone by since the Rafiah crossing was opened between Gaza and Egypt and the Israeli security establishment is extremely worried by the new reality, which was defined Wednesday by a senior security source as "total neglect." Army sources argue that because of pressure by Secretary of State Rice, the agreement had been signed too hurriedly, without providing an answer to Israeli security needs. According to the Israeli understanding of the agreement, the Israeli-Palestinian joint command center was supposed to obtain comprehensive information about whomever is passing from Gaza to Egypt and the reverse. In actuality, since the crossing has been opened, Israel only receives pictures of whomever is crossing and only eight minutes or so later information arrives about the identity of the person passing through. In that time, it is possible to go through the crossing without Israeli security authorities knowing the identity of the person. A senior member of the General Security Services remarked: "It's like watching a movie without any voice or subtitles." After raising the matter with the EU representative, it became clear that there was no common understanding. The EU's Italian general argued that he doesn't recognize a requirement to pass on data to Israel in real time. Maj.-Gen. (res.) Amos Gilad, who heads the political-military section of the Ministry of Defense, stated that the critical clause exists: "With this situation, the agreement is worthless." (Yediot Ahronot-Hebrew, 1Dec05)

#23: I don't know if you're a liar or an idiot but either way, read what I wrote again. I didn't compare us to the Taliban. If you cannot understand conditional sentences, let me know and I'll translate them into any major language of your choice. #24: I'm sorry you went to all that effort because it is quite unnecessary. As a holder of a Master's degree in international law and as someone who's been involved in studying int'l law for years, I have to tell you that you are wrong on many points. The right to self-determination (statehood) is not contingent on anything other than the fulfillment of the Montevideo criteria. And I think you'll find that when it comes down to it, the international community will decide that harashut hapalestinit satisfies these criteria. As far as the disputed territories: Israel's legitimate borders are those from the time of its recognition, i.e. 1948/1949 (the green line). This act SUPERSEDES all previous acts, be it Balfour, be it UNGAR 18, be it something else. Territories outside these borders may be disputed, in which case you have our claim that it was ours 2000 years ago and the claim of five million people who want to have their home there today. I think it's a no-brainer that we don't have a legal leg to stand on. Eventually, of course, it'll be down to a political resolution in which the Palestinians will forgo a few things and so will we. And while it pierces my heart to even fathom the idea, I have to say that the chances of our keeping e.g. maarat hamakhpelah in the long term are nill. And if you read Riviera's vomit (#s 26 and 27), you'll see exactly what I meant when I talked about incessant bullshit. Shabat shalom.

Michael, my point was that you prove only that our claim from 2000 years ago is insufficient to earn the WB for us, not that the desire for statehood by Palestinians is enough to earn for them the WB. Yes, all attempts at political settlement have called for their state to be established there, but these were political resolutions that the Arabs have never accepted, and the Jews simply went on as though they never would. Under the circumstances, I think that was completely legitimate. Even today, the actions of the PA and their supporters don't leave me with much hope that anything has changed. As a student of Int'l law, you're also aware that the concept of what "int'l law" is is something that has changed drastically in the last 50 years since Israel was established. Your knowledge of what it is today ignores what it was then. It's almost unrecognizable, today, from what it was then, thanks in very large part to some very hard work by Kofi Annan to reduce sovereingty rights of individual countries in general. Yet, I don't think that Israelis can be blamed for believing that the recognition of 1948/49 is not the last word on what their boundaries are when every jot and tittle of legal resolutions (rather than GEneral Council Resolutions) that referred to the conflict between Jews and Arabs also had requirements of Arabs to allow the Jews to live in peace in order for them to actualize their national claims. They aren't and haven't yet kept part of their deal, and therefore Israel is not in breach. And as far as maarat hamachpela, yes you're probably right that in a political deal it won't be part of Israel, but nevertheless I would expect you as a person who respects international law to find an accommodation that allows Jews to live in Hebron safely, and for those who don't live their to arrive at their holy places with no restrictions whatsoever. Will you throw yourself on a handgranade for that?