Dont try to create a banalic equlivance between Israelis and Palestinians. The truth is a little bit more complicated than that, I could present you with historical facts (which you probably know) to show you how the Arabs own a bigger part in this conflict, that with their stubberness, hatred and violence they detroyed their own chances for independence and peace. You say that Ehud Barak was "Nearly-brave", the man offered you 97% of the territories, including a compermise in Jerusalem which puts the mosques in your control, what did Arafat "The brave" do? Started the next intifada, with the guns that Rabin gave him, and with the men Rabin imported from Tunis with him. Your "Brave" Arafat told his assitant himself that he "Plans to make these shameful agreements into a curse upon the Yahud", meaning that his satanic campaign was planned ahed, that while he was shaking Rabin's hand he was thinking how would he stab him in his back when he turns around, Yigal Amir, who is a true extremist, did not kill the peace process, the peace process was born with a tumour placed by Arafat, if Rabin would of been alive to see what his Oslo brought, and it would of had the same consequences either way, he would of died of sorrow himself, for he was truly Brave. It takes courage to be moderate, but it doesnt take much courage to say "Both sides are to blame equally so both sides should do such and such", it is much harder to look at what was wrong in your own actions, rather than dismiss them by saying "The other side was also bad", are you brave enough, Ray?

1. Ray said "even though they never really turned toward Hamas at all". The Palestinians voted with a suprising majority for Hamas. 2. Extremism is not an easy choice for Palestinians - their lives get worse as they turn to terror. Moderation is easy - use common sence, be pragramtic and be good. Don't vote for leaders extremist leaders. #1 "The other one" said it well. When it comes to moderation you must write on a forum targeting Palestinians. You will not get much of an argument from Jews to be moderates.

Ray, an Israeli extremist is more moderate than any Fakestinian so-called moderate. Regarding refugees, this situation has been created by Arabs so they must fix up the mess they created. If you want to create a new paradigm you must stop blaming Israel for all your sins and mistakes. BTW a people who voted for an extremist party is an extremist people.

As soon as you put Rabin and Arafat in the same category you lost me, Ray. Your inability to see the profound difference is disturbing.

Whenever Israel has given anything, the only thing they have received is more terror. No pull back. No more land giveaway. How about *you guys* give for a change. Give up your arms. Give up your hatred. Give up your terrorist leaders. Give up Gaza. Give up. Then, and only then, can meaningful talks happen.

controls the minds of men there will be war.Only when humankind arrives at the conclusion that the invention called "religion" was one of man's lesser achievments, will peace and a sense of brotherhood start to prevail. Man must be free, like a bird on the wing, free from all restraints and constraints except those he places upon himself and not out of fear that some metaphysical entity will punish him. Like a bird on the wing man will soar to amazing heights and achieve among other things peace.

B"H Ray, You see this as a conflict between moderates and extremists. And I think that you are starting to take the vantage point not of pettiness, but of what is real justice in this situation. You probably suspect that the Right-wing is more extreme than the left-wing. But I am going to tell you that if anyone has a chance of understanding this issue clearly, it is the National Union as as far as I can tell. You are looking for an equatable solution based on justice. If Kadima gets elected, I think we know what path is going to roll forward with a fair degree of certainty. You cast it in your article as, "I say the dead we mourn today will be pushed aside by the dead we will mourn tomorrow, in conflict and, unfortunately, in the early stages of peace." You see a bloody struggle ahead. Now listen. National Union took an explosive situation in Gush Katif. And it opened dialogue and it worked with the residents to find a solution that was not perfect, but was not filled with blood. This is the team that knows how to keep blood out of the picture. It has the insight, and it has the expertise. It has the ears to listen to your solutions to the problem. You can even leave your opinions at http://www.leumi.org.il/english/Contact.asp What the centralists need to realize is that this is the winning team that truly values justice, life, and peace. It has the mandate from the religious right to do what needs to be done to create a more harmonious atmosphere in the region. It can reach those who are upset, and work to resolve the pain. What needs to be done, from my perspective, is to involve this team on forming standards for non-citizens of Israel versus citizens of Israel in neutral language in the interest of saving lives. It needs to define where the citizens of Israel may live and where they may not live, and the rest of the territory needs standards set according to region for non-citizens. Both sides need accontability to those standards to keep the peace. We cannot allow Hamas to represent Jews and Arabs who are not citizens of Israel. It is time for an end to that. It is time for us to figure out what we can agree on and persue a genuine peace, not based on agreement or treaty, but based on rigorous practice. Vote National Union for true peace.

"What Rabin and Arafat achieved was sledge-hammered by extremists." How can you make such a statement and expect people to take you seriously afterwards? Do you think Arafat, the father of all terrorists who initiated two bloody intifadas and never missed an opportunity to miss an opportunity for peace, was not an extremest? What do you think of Ahmadinejad?

A well-balanced, thoughtful, intelligent piece of writing. I'm thrilled to see that there are still people out there who recognize the situation as being between extremists and moderates and not between peoples as a whole. I greatly respect and admire your ability to draw those ever-important distinctions. Nicely done.

Yakov claims that religion is the cause of all the suffering in the world. He claims peace and brotherhood will exist when religion is gone. How far from the truth can an individual be? Look at two prime examples of societies without religion... How about the Soviet Union which slaughtered its Jews because they hated religion so much. This society without religion became a society with no moral guidance. Another good example is Hitlers Germany. How many people died in wars because of religion vs how many died from non-religious wars. I currently believe that more people have died in wars which are not related to religion, including US Civil War, US Revolutionary war, French Revolutionary war, Spanish-American War, Korean War, Vietnam War.. Many, many more people have died in conflicts not related to religion than have ever died as a result of religious wars. Stop blaming religion for your own sinful behaviour. You think you know better than the Creator, don't you... You will find out the fruits of your crazy beliefs... Michael U

in speaking about Iraq that people use their brains only when they have exhausted all other options. The same applies to us Jews and Arabs. But Ray, there is a huge difference today because Israelis have already seen the light. They have officially recognized a Palestinian right to a state. What is preventing any further discussion is that there still does not seem to be any sort of recognition from Palestinians that Jews have a right to a Jewish state. (Correct me if I am wrong here, but there is an overwhelming consensus in public opinion polls of Palestinians that there is no right of Jews to have a Jewish state). Unless that happens, you are right, there is nothing but more war in our future. So why don't we start there for moderation. I can name many moderate Israelis off the top of my head and many more if I research it a bit. Please name some moderate Palestinians (that are still alive) for me.

DEAR YAKOV, LOOK UP INTO THE SKY TONIGHT. IF IT IS CLEAR ENOUGH YOU WILL SEE THINGS THAT BY YOUR DEFINITION ARE MAN MADE. GEE , I WAS THINKING OF A NAME CHANGE FOR THAT PLANET URANUS........NO HOWBOUT WE JUST ELIMINATE IT COMPLETELY. IT IS ONLY CROWDING OUR GALAXY WITH UNPRODUCTIVITY. ALSO , I WANT TO KNOW THE PHYSICS BEHIND HOW HUMAN BEINGS FIGURED OUT HOW TO KEEP THE OCEANS FROM FLYING OUT INTO OUTER SPACE, CONSIDERING THE FACT THAT WE ARE SPINNING AT 17,000 MPH ..BY MAN'S MEASUREMENT??? HECK WHERE WOULD WE GO TO SURF? OR......GET A TAN........OR......WELL...YOU GET THE POINT BY NOW. MAN IS MORE INCOMPETANT THAN ANIMALS BECAUSE WE HAVE THE CAPACITY TO THINK AND FOR SOME STRANGE BUT KNOWABLE REASON-----WE SEEM TO F___ IT UP OVER AND OVER . WE ARE THAT SMART?ANIMALS JUST DO WHAT THEIR ___ GIVEN INSTINCT TELLS THEM. SHIT--------WE CAN'T EVEN GET THAT RIGHT AS YOU HAVE SO DEFTLY POINTED OUT. YOU HAVE OMITTED CERTAIN UNDENIABLE FACTS IN YOUR ASSESSMENT. BY THE WAY, WHO, EVER WOULD THINK OF A NAME LIKE URANUS???????? MEN WOULD...OR MAYBE I MISSPELLED IT?????? DID I???? SEE WHAT I MEAN.......HOW FITTING FOR ALL OF US TO BE HUMBLED!!!!....BUT BY WHOM??? SINCERELY, MARK M. LYNN

Hang in there buddy. As an Israeli and a Jew, I really appreciate your sincere efforts to be balanced and look at the concerns and fears of both sides (unfortunately it is rare these days). Although I find myself disaggreeing with you sometimes, I respect your views and recognize that at the end of the day, people and peoples have different view points and narratives. The important thing is that moderate people with differing narrative viewpoints can find ways to reconcile and compromise. Normally I would not bother to write to a post like this, but I decided to write this "small" letter of support only bc Im tired of reading all of the one sided, simplistic haters on my side who cant stand to even here a pro Palesintian view and respond to every argument with slogans such as "Palestine is a myth, it doesnt exist." (Ill let a moderate Muslim deal with the same such people on their side) Im not a naive peace-nik who blames everything on Israel; I think that the Arabs carry more blame for the conflict than they are willing to admit and need to recognize Israel's narrative just as we need to recognize theirs. I just wanted to assert that although I and most Israeli's may disagree to varying degree with some of Ray's arguments, the majority of us recognize and appreciate his moderate attitude. We need more people like him in order to move forward...

He is worse!

Why is it you Palestinians go on about Barak's offer being a sham, when it was clearly not? It had the backing of President Clinton! All Arafat had to do was accept, and he couldn't, because it was HIS acceptance of Israel that was a sham! You Pals want us dead, full stop. We aren't going to cooperate with you. If you can't deliver peace for a settlement, any settlement that we may come to offer you by agreement or not, then your version of "peace" is worthless whether it's written on paper or not.

I think its gonna be worse.. I always have this feeling and more whenever i travel almost daily from Bethlehem to Ramallah back and forth. When I see all these settlements which were built on Palestinian villages starting from Bizgout near Ramallah through Maale Adumim and ending in Harhouma and Bitar Elite and alot more. So when I read that Palestinians refused the 97% offer that Camp David negotiation had given them I really laugh. This so sarcastic from the a perspective of a person whose following up with conflict. The offer was a big lie and a way to manupolate the international community. In fact the 97% is supposed to be the net of land after keeping in control of all settlements and linking them all to way to Israel by bypass roads. And what remains after that is like half or one third of the West bank or whatever the percentage is; (because any how the israelis in Campdavid insisted on keeping controlling the borders, air, water as well as most of the Jordan Valley) so can you imagine how can we have a state on 97% of the land!!! And yet, when some body sayong that Campdavid gave the palestinian the control on the Mosque,,this is even funnier, I mean the Al-Aqsa mosque by itself is not the issue it is just a building,,we can worship any were to Allah,, the issue is Jerusalema nd all the land in Jerusalem east and west that was belong to its original owners before the creation of Israel were Palestinans were expelled by force from their land... that the issue. Finally, thanks to Ray, I appreciate his vision Peace and justice.

the solution is good but the tactics is offenseve ...it is from the start ,,if we look to oslo as a begining of the solution arafat sighne only to be with his plo inside palastine ,,and the israili sighn to [a b c ...gaza and jericho first to have more settelments to drow lines on the lands and make the offensive wall ...so the result what we see now ....so it is the life huury to the end no it is flying to the end not for the sake of peace not for hop and happiness ..BUT to escape the end ,,the end which all we know is death ,,,so the palastinian escape the end and also theisraili escape the end and the end is destroying of both

As a palestinian when you are humiliated daily , it is very difficult not to be pushed into despair and stop believing in peace. But the battle of peace must go on and the moderates have to unite. I agree it is amazing all the hatred and generalisation that we read on these chat rooms. Anyway we will keep our moderation but never give up our rights for dignity, indepedance and most importantly an open and shared Jerusalem.

Jerusalem is nothing to do with your religion. The word "Jerusalem" does not occur in the Koran once, conversely it features in the Bible over 800 times. A Mosque was deliberately and provocatively built right on top of the Temple Mount, not 100 metres to the north, south, east or west, but smack bang on top. It is merely a political site for you. Camp David was the last offer you're ever going to get. It was at least the 3rd time you've been offered statehood. You refused it in 1937, 1947 and 2000-01. Also when Egypt and Jordan occupied Gaza, Judea and Samaria between 1948-1967 no state was provided for you by your fellow Arabs. Your present situation is entirely of your own making.

Given your denial of Israel's right to exist

First of all religion has nothing to do with the whole issue, at least in my opinion, it should be from standpoints that deal with humanity, international law, and even historic but without saying who and which nation was here before.. cuz this does not make any sensce inthe human history, US and america is about 300 yrs old could we tell americans you leave there and leave the land to natives (this is another and different topic though). In addition, your way saying this is very strange and reflect the obvious fear that have in your attitude . when you write " Camp David was the last offer you're ever going to get...." This is not the way of depate for civilized people or even basic negotiation principles.. Well, what matters here is that both parties (Pals and Isrs) should recognize the ultimate rights of each other. Israel can win this conflict because its the stronger and has the upper hand by building settlements and confiscating more land etc..so they can get the victory but they will never get a real and lasting peace by doing so. Peace and justice for all

The word Palestine sounds a lot like Philistine, right. Thats because the Romans knew of the ancient philistines who used to inhabit modern Gaza (up to Ashdod). However by the time the Romans had conquered the area we now call Israel , the Philistines were long gone (believed to have relocated on the greek isles). There is a museum in Ashdod dedicated to the ancient philistines and their history..In any case, the Romans misnamed the region, thinking that the people there were the descendants of the philistines. My point is that if you look at ancient Roman references to people living here, jews are always refered to as jews....not palestinians or falestina or any of that. That means that if the jews were jews than the remaining people living here would have been called palestinians...(since the Romans). And there were always non-jews living in Israel as well. My REAL point is this : Who are YOU to say that a people do not exist. Even if the name is somewhat of a misnomer, these people have BECOME a nation, thanks to the occupation in no small way. Refugees, nomads, whatever... I can recall one nation that came into being from a bunch of slaves. In any case your hatred is an embarassment.

Mohamed, the "Big Lie" you refer to was the perspective of one person in the American camp associated with the negotiations who was not in a better position to know the contents of those negotiations than Bill Clinton himself. The Saudis, and President Clinton himself, all confirmed that the offer Barak described was made, that it indeed was 97% of the entire W.Bank and Gaza land area, not as you calculated, and that the offer become increasingly sweeter after Camp David until Taba, during which time Barak paniced at the winds of war that Arafat was brewing and was struggling to save the last chance for peace. It's worthy of note that Arafat refused every single offer AND made no counter offer. Certainly, no offer as generous as yours, the Temple Mount for E. Jerusalem's ARab communities. Heck, I'd give you that at the drop of a hat. The fact is though that Arafat and the Wakf made sure that there wouldn't even be a vertical sovereingty possibiility because the Wakf "established facts in the field" that made this impossible. But narry a word of protest from the world about he Palis' "facts in the field". Obviously, you guys have a problem with the concept of "negotiations", and how fighting over that last 3% might just not have been worth a fight. Well, boy did we overestimate Palestinian intelligence. War is so glorious and fashionable, to be downtrodden and to fight back, and even to die is better than to live and to not kill. You're sick. Chief amongst your sickos is Marwan Barghouti, who achieved fame with Arafat's backing preparing for the "arafada" IN ADVANCE of the offer at Taba, which Arafat refused "because the street isn't ready". Well we found out what they were ready for, didn't we Mohamed? Of course, the Palestinians abandoned terrorism as a strategic and tactical weapon, because the Palestinians redefined it as what Israelis do. Or, when they couldn't see us doing anything, they invented it - nuclear tipped weapons, birth control bubble gum, spreading of aids amongst the Palis, the list goes on. Let's get the facts straight. There was no lie, Mohamed. You missed your chance at a state because your leaders chose to miss it, not because there was nothing to choose. Issues of control of water, borders and air, and most of the Jordan Valley would not have been an impediment to a state that was truly interested in living side by side at least until Israel had peace agreements with all the other Muslim nations that threaten her. But again, remember that even if these terms were problematic for you, there was no counter offer, and this is nobody's fault but your own. What there has been since is Palestian revisionism of the type served up by Ray Hanina and you designed to make you feel that your refusal was based on a reason more substantitive than the usual reasons, which is that Palestinians raisson de etre is to deny Israelis a raisson de etre. You are an anti-People, not a People, and an anti-State, not a state. You are a living Marxist / Islamist cliche.

who define themselves Palestinian to dislodge the Jewish state of Israel. The Arab regimes + Iran are fighting israel by proxy via the Palestinian Arab Islamic insurgency which is no different from the Islamic insurgency in Thailand, the Philippines, Chechnya, India, the Balkans, Bali, etc.

That's just another "Palestinian" lie, that if Israel just commits suicide and withdraws to indefensible borders, Islamic terrorism will suddenly end overnight. There's not even any peace amongst different Islamic factions across the Middle East, so the chances of them making peace with Jews is a billion to one.