Opinion  Sever Plocker
Disengagement lessons
Sever Plocker
Published: 16.04.06, 16:40
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1. Disingenuous Disengagement
Yisrael ,   Jerusalem, Israel   (04.16.06)
Only a blind fool or a committed leftist/Kadima supporter could fail to see the disaster of Gaza, and I was a supporter ! The settlers have been removed for nothing, except to make them suffer, apparently, for their Zionism. As for border recognition, please send me the drugs these guys are smoking, it must be something special. The world did not recognize Jerusalem as Israel's capital BEFORE 1967, so al echad kama ve'kamah ! As Ann Lander's used to say, wake up and smell the coffee ! These guys don't learn from ancient history; they don't learn from recent history; they just don't learn ! After all, these are the pathetic losers who are tired of winning. But in every generation, God saves us from them ! I sure hope so, before more Jewish lives are destroyed for nothing.
2. Like always, Sever is 100% right.
Caligula's Horse ,   Solomon's Stables   (04.16.06)
He was right about Bibi's economical plan, about the convergence, about everything, now he is right about the disengagment. The only thing is that he is right a month too late...
3. Good questions, wrong answers
Anthony ,   London   (04.16.06)
Those who planned the disengagement did not promise us that Gaza would become "a Palestinian Hong Kong" but that the Palestinians would be responsible for whatever mess they would find themselves in. Sever Plocker is right that in the eyes of the international community israel is still responsible for the mess the Palestinians live in- yet that doesn't change what has actually happened. Gaza and the Westbank will have to become part of Palestine in any future settlement, so the sooner we get out of there, the sooner the Palestinians will be solely responsible for their lot. Disengagement recognises the need for Israel to do the right thing (get out of their land) even while the Palestinians fail to carry out their own duties (recognise us). It is the only thing Israel can do to bring us nearer to the 2-state solution that is the only feasible end to this conflict.
4. put those responsible on trial for treason
jason white ,   afula,israel   (04.16.06)
What happened in gaza is nothing compared with the plan of ehud omelet. Instead of being sworn in as the new prime minister,he should be on trial for the gaza disaster. Everyone who voted for it should be tried. No two-state solution will help.The terrorists want it all. Death is what they deserve,not our Holy land. They only respect strength.
5. 2 state solution?
Yisraeli   (04.17.06)
A 2 state solution didnt end the conflict from 1922 when Jordan was created on 79% of the area known as palestine, so Anthony you now think 3 states will end this conflict? I think not, in fact I know it wont. The only way to end this conflict is by transferring most of the the arab population from all areas west of the jordan river to the other side east of the river. Whether by monetary means or force in the end all other so called plans and solutions are fairy tales. You may not like the solution, but in the end that is the only solution that is if one wants Israel to exist and this conflict to end.
6. Mr. Plocker and Qassams. PART (1)
Ron ,   LA   (04.17.06)
MR.Sever Plocker LIES ARE HERE : “The Qassams, of course, do not constitute a danger to Israel, but they're bothersome, annoying, and made the daily life of Gaza-area residents very difficult. And dangerous. Eventually, even if only due to the laws of probability, a rocket would land in a crowd concentration and lead to disaster.” Mr. Sever Plocker is lazy reporter and therefore dangerous, Not only he is ignorant and misleading, his articles are used by our enemies to show how those Jews “terrorize” those Palestinians without any provocation. Unfortunately this lead to MORE Palestinian attacks. Of course Mr. Sever Plocker ,nothing dangerous to kids of Sderot who are terrorized and pee in their beds, can not attend school, live on pills and all other “annoying” and “bothersome” occurrences . Mr. Sever Plocker home in Tel Aviv where he writes his “ article” is safe. His kids are sleeping tight. My relatives in Sderot are NOT Mr. Plocker. I expect Mr. Sever Plocker and Ynet to apologize to those innocents families who might read his articles, and make sure not to repeat this shame again. THE TRUTH IS HERE: List of notable Qassam Attacks On June 28, 2004, the first fatal Qassam rocket attack occurred in Sderot, when rockets launched by Hamas killed two Israelis. On September 29, 2004, a Qassam rocket fired from the Gaza Strip hit the southern Israeli town of Sderot, killing two Israeli children. It was the second fatal Qassam rocket attack. Hamas claimed responsibility for the attack. On October 3, 2004, Mahadi Mushtaha, a senior member of the Qassam production and development team in the Gaza Strip was killed by an Israeli targeted assassination. Mushtaha, a resident of the Jabalia refugee camp, was alleged to have been the manager of workshops and labs producing components of the Qassam rockets. [7]
7. Mr. Plocker and Qassams. PART (2)
Ron ,   LA   (04.17.06)
Page2 On January 21, 2005, the fifth Israeli died from wounds sustained during a Qassam rocket attack in Sderot. On March 2, 2005, IDF forces discovered a bomb-lab near Jenin that manufactures Qassam rockets. IDF Sappers safely detonated the lab, which contained many explosives and a Qassam rocket in initial stage of production. [8] This is not the first time that a Qassam rocket was found in the West Bank. On July 14, 2005, Dana Galkovitch, a 22-year-old Israeli, was killed in a Qassam attack in the Netiv Ha'asara kibbutz, just north of the Gaza Strip [9] On September 12, 2005, a Qassam rocket hit an Israeli town, following the Gaza Pullout. On September 23, 2005, at least 3 Qassam rockets were shot from the Gaza Strip, hitting the Israeli town of Sderot. [10] On September 24, 2005, five Israelis were injured when Palestinian terrorists launched about 30 rockets on Israeli communities from the Gaza Strip. This attack followed an incident the previous day, in which 20 Palestinians, including 16 civilians, were killed when a vehicle carrying Qassam rockets exploded during a Hamas rally in Jabalya. The exact circumstances surrounding the incident are still unknown. To date, no evidence has been found to substantiate Hamas’ claim that Israeli interference was responsible for the accident.[11] In mid-December 2005, a Qassam rocket hit near the moshav of Ram-on, part of the Ta'anachim group of agricultural villages outside the northern town of Afula. On December 26, 2005, a Qassam rocket landed at a very small distance from a kindergarten during a Chanukah party at kibbutz Sa'ad.[12] February 3, 2006, a Qassam rocket struck a family's house in the western Negev village of Kibbutz Karmiya, moderately injuring four people, icluding a 7-month-old baby. [13] On March 28, 2006, in a direct hit, a Qassam rocket killed two Israeli-Arab shepherds in Kibbutz Nachal Oz. This incident was at first falsly reported as being a loose IDF shell that exploded. Islamic Jihad claimed responsibility.[14] On March 29, 2006, the Israeli Navy heavily shells Qassam launching sites in Northern Gaza.[15] On March 30, 2006, Two Qassam rockets landed kibbutz Karmiya, south of Ashkelon. One of them hitting a soccer field, lightly injuring one person and damaging a parked car. Only hours before the attack, children ended a soccer game at the field.
8. There is an Alternative to WB Disengagement
Robert ,   Jerusalem, Israel   (04.17.06)
There is an Alternative to spending 100 billion shekels to forcibly expel 80,000 Jews from their homes! There is an Alternative which respects everyone's human rights! There is an Alternative which ensures a Jewish majority for generations to come! There is an Alternative which will unite the nation and not divide it. There is an Alternative which a majority of Palestinian Arabs could be convinced accept. There is an Alternative which Israel can implement without the agreement of the US, EU or Arab countries. What is this Alternative? To establish a Ministry of Emigration which would give the same financial incentives and aid to Arabs who want to emigrate as is given to Jews who want to make aliyah. According to polls 59% of Israeli Jews support the government encouraging Arabs to emigrate, and 20% of West Bank Arabs would emigrate today if they had the money to do so, more would do so if the financial incentives were available. There is an Alternative! http://www.petitiononline.com/altern1/petition.html
9. Russian, Ethiopean immigrants ,victims
Ron ,   LA   (04.17.06)
Another point for your consideration. Lots of victims are weak populations, who hardly speak Hebrew and English. They are newly immigrants from Russia and Blacks from Ethiopia. They don't know what kind of abuse those “humanitarians" put them through. This is the reason it hurt so much. How can a Jew write this? Is Jewish blood so cheap? Where is the Jewish soul? I can never understand. Do you?
10. Two state solution
Navi ,   Canada   (04.17.06)
A two state solution is the only logical way to resolve this conflict. The reason for this is that giving the Palestinians a state, whether they agree to its borders or not, will force them to be responsible for their actions. They will no longer be able to complain that the daily "occupation" embitters their lives. If, as an independent state, they choose to attack Israel, they will have declared war, and that is not a war they will win....
11. The disengagement did not cause a rift within Israel society
happysettler ,   Ofra   (04.17.06)
how wrong you are that the disengagement did not cause a rift within Israel society. It has sown many seeds that are leading to a future strom within our society.
12. Refugees
Eliyahu Ben-Haim ,   Israel   (04.17.06)
the Gaza pullout has been a disaster on all levels and Plocker omits one of the biggest:our refugees. After 8 months most Israelis refugees do not have permanent housing. They do not have gainful employment. They do not have any witness that what happened is in any way for the "national good". This is the case with 8,000 mostly gentle people - what will happen with 80,000 more entrenched people? If Peretz/Olmert doesn't bankrupt Israel this surely will - on many levels
13. really??
eliezer ,   Jerusalem   (04.17.06)
"The Qassams, of course, do not constitute a danger to Israel" Really? I like the "of course" is gives credence when there is no truth.
14. #6, #7 Agree! Apologize PlotCker!
Shameful ,   Lie   (04.17.06)
15. #3 Anthony is right 100% plus link, see
Ron ,   LA   (04.17.06)
The hope was for THE LONG TERM, not immediately. Any fool can tell, Qassams will not end immediately, nobody argued this. If we respond strongly, not by striking empty football fields, but as previously done by targeting Haniyeh, like we did Yassin and Rantissi, I believe they will stop eventually. Again, this is long battle, not " zbeng ve gamarnu" Lazy journalism, at best. http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/pages/ShArt.jhtml?itemNo=416024&contrassID=1&subContrassID=1&sbSubContrassID=0&listSrc=Y Pay attention: B. "The plan will lead to a better security reality, at least in the long term."
16. Ron of LA's long term
Phil ,   US   (04.17.06)
In your support of Anthony's argument in favor of unilateral withdrawl and criticism of Plocker's points, you did not offer one fact to refute Plocker. Exactly what makes you think that unilateral withdrawal will help in the long term? What leads you to believe that giving up territory and allowing a hostile force to become more radicalized and lawless will benefit Israel? Where will Israel get the huge amounts of money to implement the withdrawal and then house and find jobs for the settlers? Remember during the Sharon era, Israel was force to call up reserves and retake parts of the West Bank that had been handed over to the PLO to stop some of the terrorism.
17. ??diengagement did not cause a rift in israeli society??
david ,   miami usa   (04.17.06)
this reminds me of a joke: a man is sitting next to a window on the 30th floor of the empire state building, when he sees a man jump off the roof and whiz past his window on his way to crash into the street below. as the man man falls past his window, the man inside asks him quickly: "how are you doing?", the falling man yells back: "so far so good!" a civil war is not going to happen in 1 day, 1 week or 1 month, but the damage that disengagement did to israeli society is long lasting and future traumas are cumulative. there is now a whole segment of the population (the most patriotic ones) who feel that the israeli government and army are the enemy and to be opposed at all costs. and you know what? -- they're right!
18. Re #10. Wake up to the one state solution
Steve ,   USA   (04.17.06)
B"H Only the one state solution will prevent Arab complaints and definately not a two state solution, as their "elected" body only recognizes a single state from the Mediteranian to the Jordan river. The question is will the Jews recognize that this one state has to be a Jewish state for Jewish survival? Or are the Jewish people in store for another round of bloody slavery? The story of Egypt had two miracles, the enslavement and also the redemption. Which way are we going Jews?
19. The new trend?
Caroline ,   Israel   (04.17.06)
Three main articles on Ynet's "Opinion" today - three disapprovements of Olmert's convergence plan. And this happens only three weeks after the elections. After all the enthusiasm supporting the newborn leader's plans it becomes clear to all that it was only an illusion, a wishful thinking. Doesn't this change come a bit late? The elections are over and the convergence machine is ready to move forward. Or maybe it still can help?
20. #16 Detailed answer Phil and others PART (2)
Ron ,   LA   (04.17.06)
Indeed, this combines with the intractability of the peace process to result in a growing movement among some Palestinians and Israelis towards a "one-state" solution, with all people in Israel and the occupied territories being full citizens with full voting rights. In such a future, with right of return and with Israeli Arabs and Palestinians comprising about half of the total population, destruction and genocide of Jews is inevitable. This is serious shit , Phil. Such talk is anathema to most Jewish opinion as it would mark the end of the Jewish state. Support for such a "one-state" solution remains small. It comes mainly from Palestinians, enemies of Israel, extreme leftists, useful idiots and ignorant tree huggers, but for many Israelis it is easy to see why it is seen as a time bomb striking at the very existence of Israel. In these circumstances, this move removed well over a million Palestinians from this calculation. But the main reason, to my humble opinion, is a strategic agreement between Bush and Sharon, regarding the FINAL borders of Israel. The logical progression is a famous Olmert plan, which is at the main stream of Israel Public Opinion. The final “hand shake” will be between Bush and Sharon when he visits him soon. This is UNILETERAL SOLUTION. The timing is extremely important. Window of opportunity is small. Fortunately Palestinians are loonies as always. They don’t understand what they are doing. On the other hand they always were losers, no expectations here. We are sick and tired of Palestinians. Look at Gaza Zoo.. (See Yair Lapid article) “Where will Israel get the huge amounts of money to implement the withdrawal and then house and find jobs for the settlers?” The move is too important to think in those terms, it’s existential, Phil, life and death situation. This is about next generations and survival of Jewish people, not money… “Remember during the Sharon era, Israel was force to call up reserves and retake parts of the West Bank that had been handed over to the PLO to stop some of the terrorism. “ Reserves are IMTEGRAL part of Israeli war machine. The question is mainly economic and also bothering highly productive population from their civil responsibilities, but this is minor for the above reason. IDF is far superior beyond any comparison. Phil, good thinking, hope I helped…
21. #16 Detailed answer Phil and others PART(1)
Ron ,   LA   (04.18.06)
Hi, Phil, thanks for intelligent argument. “In your support of Anthony's argument in favor of unilateral withdrawl and criticism of Plocker's points, you did not offer one fact to refute Plocker” First, let’s establish some facts. Plocher lied to you. There is NO justification, he is Israeli, he knows, but doesn’t care. I even predict, he WILL NOT POST AND APOLOGIZE. I hope I am wrong. Let’s see. Those facts represented in detail in my posts # 6 and #7. Also look at #9 . Exactly what makes you think that unilateral withdrawal will help in the long term? What leads you to believe that giving up territory and allowing a hostile force to become more radicalized and lawless will benefit Israel?” Unfortunately “believe” is more accurate. If Israel will have correct policies (as described above regarding Yassin, Rantissi) we can have peace in Gaza in one week. The reason Hamass declared “hudna” was because their leaders were scared shitless. They don’t care about 72 virgins, fer sure. But Phil to see THIS reason for withdrawal will be wrong. If you follow closely you will find out it WASN’T the MAIN reason for withdrawal. My opinion: Couple of separate motives; settlements were proving massively costly to maintain, given their encroachment into a heavily populated Palestinian territory, just for the benefit of a few thousand settlers. A second motive is in the long run, Gaza much less of a security problem for Israel than one containing scattered settlements. Another one for you: Jewish population of Israel and the Palestinian territories - is progressively losing the demographic war, in that, on current trends, Jews will be in a minority in the whole territory in perhaps a decade.Russian immigration altered the Jewish/Arab demographic balance for some years but the rate of immigration into Israel has now slowed to a trickle, while the Palestinian birth rate has been maintained at an unusually high level. It is worth stressing that the high birth rate among Palestinians is not as a result of the kinds of factors that have operated in many third world states in the past five or six decades. Rather, it is a matter of direct intention for hundreds of thousands of Palestinians for whom raising large families is seen directly as slowly dominate and set an agenda in Israel (look at Europe).
22. #16 ( revised) Detailed answer to Phil and others PART (1)
Ron ,   LA   (04.18.06)
Hi, Phil, thanks for intelligent argument. “In your support of Anthony's argument in favor of unilateral withdrawl and criticism of Plocker's points, you did not offer one fact to refute Plocker” First, let’s establish some facts. It’s VERY IMPORTANT to look at my previous posts! Those facts represented in detail in my posts # 6 and #7. Also look at #9 . Exactly what makes you think that unilateral withdrawal will help in the long term? What leads you to believe that giving up territory and allowing a hostile force to become more radicalized and lawless will benefit Israel?” Unfortunately “believe” is more accurate. If Israel will have correct policies (as described above regarding Yassin, Rantissi) we can have peace in Gaza in one week. The reason Hamass declared “hudna” was because their leaders were scared shitless. They don’t care about 72 virgins, fer sure. But Phil to see THIS reason for withdrawal will be wrong. If you follow closely you will find out it WASN’T the MAIN reason for withdrawal. My opinion: Couple of separate motives; settlements were proving massively costly to maintain, given their encroachment into a heavily populated Palestinian territory, just for the benefit of a few thousand settlers. A second motive is in the long run, Gaza much less of a security problem for Israel than one containing scattered settlements. Another one for you: Jewish population of Israel and the Palestinian territories - is progressively losing the demographic war, in that, on current trends, Jews will be in a minority in the whole territory in perhaps a decade.Russian immigration altered the Jewish/Arab demographic balance for some years but the rate of immigration into Israel has now slowed to a trickle, while the Palestinian birth rate has been maintained at an unusually high level. It is worth stressing that the high birth rate among Palestinians is not as a result of the kinds of factors that have operated in many third world states in the past five or six decades. Rather, it is a matter of direct intention for hundreds of thousands of Palestinians for whom raising large families is seen directly as slowly dominate and set an agenda in Israel (look at Europe).
23. jewish blood
malka c.cantor ,   jerusalem israel   (04.18.06)
how much more pain and suffering do we need to go thru? i know jewish blood is cheap,but do we not need to get out of the twlight zone. we had religious and secular jews need to wake up already and see what the one above is showing us. we need to start helping one another not dislike each other already. we need to sit down somewhere and have a good time and be happy,not next hour in a grave. not to sit and have luch with getting blown up. and people mocking us. wake up already this is for real not a movie.
24. sign it!!
(04.20.06)
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