Opinion  Others
Sephardi girl? Not in our school
Roni Aloni-Sadovnik
Published: 07.05.06, 12:59
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1. Uch, who would want to go to Beis Yaakov anyway?
Jenny ,   NYC   (05.07.06)
2. Never heard of
yakov shani ,   afula   (05.07.06)
an organization by this name. On the other hand I do know one called BET YAKOV. Remember a policy called NUMERUS CLAUSUS. I am an Israeli, I am Jewish. I refuse to accept sectorial Judaism or Israeliness in any shape or form, that is what Kibbutz Galuiot is all about. There is no such thing as Sepharadim and Ashkenazim. The mere use of the terms should be outlawed, any use of sectorial terminology should be outlawed. Any sectorial practices should be outlawed and their perpetrators condemned wholeheartedly.BET YAKOV is for all Israeli children.I am ashamed and disgusted, NUMERUS CLAUSUS IN ERETZ YISRAEL, i WANT TO BE SICK.
3. And that is exactlty why Shas needed to be in the GOV
(05.07.06)
To protect and give freedoms to the Sephardim
4. #2's hypocrisy
Reuven Brauner ,   Raanana, Israel   (05.07.06)
#2 gives a back-handed slap to the very authentic Ashkenazi pronounciation (Beis) by feigning ignorance of it or disparagingly dismissing it as illegitimate, and then goes on to condemn "sectorial terminology and practices". He even wants it "outlawed". How far down have we sunk? If you want respect, #2, you must first give respect.
5. "racism"
dana ,   us   (05.07.06)
I t is well known that Jews have one of the highest average IQ's of any nationality, with an inordinate number of geniouses. However , after reading this article I wonder if this only applies to the diaspora. Since Sephardic and Ashkenazi Jews are of the same racial origin, any discrimination between them would by any definition would not be "racism". Are there not any editors at your publication ? This is quite elementary.
6. racism?
Ben ,   Israel   (05.07.06)
let us be honest here and speakfrom an educational standpoint. bais yaakov is anashkenazi school system, no matter how much you try to slant this issue to look rascist, those of you who do not have a hareidi upbringing need to understand that despite the fact that we are all jews and should be all the same there are differences in custom and tradition of ashkenazim and sefardim just as in the hareidi world there are differences between the lithuanians headed by rav eliyashiv and the chassidic world each group headed by his Rebbe. just as A non chassidic hareid boy or girl does not fit into a hassidic yeshiva or seminary due to the different customs, so too sefardic girls and boys should be educated in their own tradition and not in the ashkenazic tradition. it is unfair to make a Sefardic child pray from an ashkenazic prayer book and be taught that they may not eat legumes on Pesach and that they must receive the shabbat 40 minutes before sundown. The same goes for a lituanian child to be taught that one must not make knaidelach on Pesach and to pray from a hassidic prayer book. We each havve our traditions and they are all beautiful and should be passed down to our children.Shas must build schools for their constituency in the upper grades as they do in the lower grades.This is not racism, do not besmirch the schools!
7. Racism ?
Ruth D. ,   Virginia, USA   (05.07.06)
Ben, it's a shame to read a such thing is happened in Israel. I though that our Torah and faith come only from G-d. Is G-d Ashkenzic or Sephardic ? In which right those Rabbis decide who is or who can come in the school ? I live in the States, and if a such situation will come, I will not be surprised but in Israel and by some guys who think they are Rabbis ??? I prefer a reformist rabbi than those kind of Rabbis. If they really do such a thing, I have no respect for them. A shame .... A shame
8. # 4
yakov shani ,   afula   (05.07.06)
"All" sectorial terminology and habits from "all" former branches of the unfortunate Galut should be abolished in favour of forging a new Jew, known as an Israeli. The continuation of sectorial differences is conducive to rift and disparity, this is self evident and only when we recognize this as a fact will we be able to rectify it. No hypocrisy was intended, just constructive criticism. I happen to feel very strongly about it and everything about the Diaspora is anathema to me. Sorry, but that is the way I feel and I do not intend to hide my feelings.
9. Hypocrisy yourself Reuven
S Judah ,   London   (05.07.06)
Beis is an incorrect pronounciation even if it is used by some Askkenazi Sages. Instead I suggest you address the well known discrimination against Sephardim that still exists. It is why Shas was formed and one of many reasons as to why it suceeds.
10. Disgraceful racism and Beis is NOT AUTHENTIC
Noam ,   Washington, DC   (05.07.06)
Reuven, I have studied Biblical Hebrew, Modern Hebrew, and Arabic and I can tell you that pronouncing a tav (originally spelled "tau") without a dagesh as "s" is historically inaccurate. Why were all Biblical names of people that had a dagesh-less tav spelled with the "th" sound, such as NaTHan, GoliaTH, Gath, Bnai BriTH? These are names the ancient Greeks translated as they heard the ancient Hebrews speak in the original tongue. "S" mostly likely came about because they had trouble pronouncing "th" at the end of the words (Castillian Spanish had the opposite problem, hence they say "cathtillian"). Moreover, my Egyptian Arabic teacher pronounced the "th" sound as "s" but acknowledged that "th" was the correct pronunciation. There are already two "s" sounds: sin and samekh (and tzadde used to be an emphatic "s"), thus it illogical that Hebrew would have a third "s" sound
11. Cant we all just get along?
Michael U ,   SF,CA   (05.07.06)
Hi, Here in the Bay Area of California I am privelidged to be part of a minyan of Orthodox Jews even though I have not yet fully become observant. In this minyan we are mostly Ashkenazi but we have at least 3 Sephardic men and their children. I don't detect racism at all from the Rabbi nor anyone else. We have siddurs for both Askenaz and Sephard so that they can daven according to their custom. Here in California I have not felt any bad feelings for Sephardic judaism. I have much hope for judaism if what my orthodox Rabbi practices is EMET. I love the Torah, and study it whenever I have 'free' time. I love all my fellow Jews, as commanded in last Shabbas parsha. I even love the convert as I love the born jew. I work with a secular Israeli and I even love him despite his obvious bias against the religious. Please brothers and sisters, keep the faith and love your brother. We have no room to fight amongst our family when we have true enemies at our gates.
12. Close all these schools.
jason white ,   afula,israel   (05.07.06)
There should be only state-runned religous and secular schools.All schools should be equal. Why should some schools receive extra money for their budgets.Any donations should go into a general fund to be divided up according to the student 's attending.
13. # 10
yakov shani ,   afula   (05.08.06)
Thank you for your support. "Frum" (horrible word) Jews go to "shul" and don a "yamulke' and wrap themselves in a "talis". Get the Galut out of your bones and if you wish to be religious that is fine by me but please be dati or maamin and go to "bet haknesset" and don a "kisui" and wrap youself in a "talit" the plural of which is talitot and not "talesim". The Galut brought upon us shame and near extermination, be proud Jews and hold your heads up high and have national pride and stop wearing these ridiculous 17th century Polish outfits that only make people ridicule you.
14. More thoughts about this issue
Noam ,   Washington   (05.08.06)
The Beis Yaakov (supposed to be pronounced Beth Yaakov or Bet Yaakov) has no right to discriminate solely based on the traditional family practices of the students. I would like to know if the discrimination is based as much on physical appearance of the students as on the practices of their parents. These labels Ashkenasi and Sefardi (which can either overlap or be entirely different from ancient Mizrahi communities) are personal constructs based more on belief than on ancestry. A fair-skinned Ashenasi baby adopted by Algerian Jewish parents would be just as much a "Sefardi" as a Moroccan man whose ancestors lived in Marraketch for 30 generations. Now if the school demands that all of its students at least follow the Ashnesai customs of the school while in school, fine. Its only fair to ask the students to adhere to its traditions in school. But to forbid several students attending solely based on pseudo ethnic quotas is horribly opposed to our past history of Am Yisrael as one, tantamount to the Kohen Gadol restricting the number of sacrifices that individuals of each tribe can offer or a Rabbi restricting the number of black skinned people that can convert to Judaism.
15. #5
Eli ,   Israel   (05.08.06)
Due to your atrocious spelling, racist posture and illogical argument I can see that you are NOT one of those high IQ Jews.
16. #12 Your a commie, get out!!
Moshe ,   Jerusalem   (05.08.06)
"There should be only state-runned religous and secular schools.All schools should be equal. " Yeah lets Kadima control what we teach to our kids, (sarcasm) Get your communist ideals out of here!!
17. Yakov Shani Is A Communist - Go To North Korea!!!
(05.08.06)
18. I wonder
Bozoer Rebbe ,   Motown, USA   (05.08.06)
I wonder if those who insist that the "s" pronunciation for Tav is correct believe that HaShem disregard the prayers of those who speak with a Sephardi mivtah. I once had an ashkenazi rav here in the states criticize my davining and said "if you want to sound like an Israeli, why do you pronounce the tzeri and segol differently?" I told him that just because the average Israeli mispronounced Hebrew didn't mean that I had to.
19. Judiasm's Halacha is Sepaphardic Based
Marc Green ,   NJ USA   (05.08.06)
Ramam, Ramban, Rif, Rav Yossef Karo,Iben Ezra, Yehudah Halevi, Abarbanel, Rav Chaim Luzato are all Sephardic giants whose views our halacha,philosophy, and biblical thought are primarily based on. Proper Hebrew pronunciation is primarily Sephardic.
20. Just Rediculous
Neal ,   Bristol, USA   (05.08.06)
This is the most rediculous thing I have ever heard of. I am Jewish and concerned with Israel. Jew should not let even the appearence of racism enter into anybody opinions. This practice STINKS of racism. The state should not be providing religeous education. It should provide non religeous education. The world complains that the Arabs only teach the Koran and not non religeous education. We cant be thought of as doing any thing even close !!! Israel is a safe haven for Jews. A home. Racism was never practiced in my home. I cant belive that you let it be practiced in yours. This type of practice makes the Rabbis seem no better than Mulas. I cant belive it.
21. lashes
yoav david ,   boston   (05.08.06)
The gedolim who allow this should be publicly flogged
22. to #3
dave ,   herzliya   (05.08.06)
didn't u read the story, shas sacrificed their own sector so they wouldn't lose votes to the mayor who tabled the vote. And why is anyone mad anyways? Think how many girls were saved from backwards beit yaakov schools thanks to this polic
23. Rebuttal
Reuven Brauner ,   Raanana, Israel   (05.08.06)
1. Mr. Shani seems to be obsessed with the idea that the Galus was all negative and that we should dismiss it and that entire experience. I disagree. Besides, he forgets that the terms talit, bet haknesset, et al were used in certain Galut communities, too. Why is one Galut pronounciation acceptable, but another unacceptable? 2. Mr. Judah repeats the error that the Ashkenazi pronounciation is "incorrect". I am not sure that we can apply the term "correct" to pronounciations and dialects. If you want to say "close to the original" or "ancient", maybe. Also, I have great respect for all Jewish traditions. I do not speak against one or another, I only defended the authenticity of the Ashkenazi tradition. 3. Noam in Washington: If you can have two letters with the same sound, why not three? Do you know how many ways the "ay" sound can be written in English? Best regards to all, Reuven Brauner
24. #8
Dov ,   Los Angeles, CA   (05.08.06)
"Everything about the Diaspora is anathema to" you... And yet you write these very words in English. And somehow, I'm sure that you or your children have no problem adopting American standards, American culture, and sometimes unfortunately even American ethics as exported in their movies and music and adopted within "Israeli culture." It's only "those religious" who get under your skin by choosing to stay true to the traditions that have kept their families together and striving for sanctity for so many generations. It's sad to think that this is what has become of "the new Jews" who are Israelis first and Jews second. Why not learn in this regard from Arik Sharon, who got up in front of thousands of kids from all over the world at a Birthright event and said: "First, before anything, I am a Jew!"
25. Exclusion of Sephardim is DISGUSTING, Please Read.
howard ,   pacific coast, usa   (05.08.06)
Bigotry has no place in Israel. NONE. Ashkenazim and Sephardim are descended from Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. I don't care if you mispronounce "beit" or if you come from the Diasporah and mispronounce almost everything. DOES IT MATTER? DOES IT MATTER AT ALL? In an Israeli community, kids are being DENIED SCHOOL in a public school system based on their background, their version of Jewish religious observances or their origins. THAT IS WHAT MATTERS. That is criminal. The people who are responsible should be removed from their positions with extreme prejudice and possibly locked up for the harm they have done. Beis Yaakov. House of Jacob. YEAH RIGHT. You must accept ALL of the daughters of the House of Jacob. Thanks for listening.
26. What does the army do?
Chaya ,   Bat Yam   (05.08.06)
Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't the IDF utilize the Sephardic siddur? And during Pesach serves legumes and rice? There should be a meeting among all the rabbis in order to come up with ONE custom to satisfy everyone. IF people - in the privacy of their own homes - want to practice something different; but in the batei knesset and schools there should be one unifying custom that eventually will be practiced by all, even in their homes.
27. The Reason Is Very Simple
A ,   Jerusalem   (05.08.06)
Sephardim have many different customs and follow different Rabbi's on virtually ALL Halachic issues. Its similar to a modern orthodox school not accepting a hasidic student. It has nothing to do with racism or bigotry.
28. # 17
yakov shani ,   afula   (05.08.06)
Your response is very analytical and might I add profound. You must have exerted a great deal of mental effort to arrive at a conclusion which shines in its clarity and outstanding logic.
29. Rebuttal Reuven 23 - and address the main issue
S Judah ,   London   (05.08.06)
It is valid to say that the dialect of the Torah and the Talmud is middle eastern, there is no evidence of Beis in these dialects. None the less this is not the issue, the issue is discrimination against Sephardim. Let here your views on that Reuven.
30. A pulsa dinora on beit yakov!!!!
mike ,   gedera   (05.08.06)
First cut off their funding then take those responsible for this Taliban policy and cut off their balls.
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