I can see clearly that this news is scaring the hell out of you.... Welcome to the New NEW WORLD ORDER....Arafat created the term " Palestinians" in 1963 ? Any proofs ? My grandfather was born in 1914 and he held a Palestinian Passport back then....i have the document under my eyes, a British PALESTINIAN passport dating from 1936 ! ....his nationality on the passport is " PALESTINIAN" , and its 3 decades before 1963...don't you feel ridiculous now?

All the debate on the status of the 67 line is irrelevant. It is typically the issue people love so they can to avoid handling the reality. If, which is a big if, the palestinians offer the 67 line as a border, it is, at least, the beginning of a negociation, the out come of it depending of the balance of power between the two sides. But Yakov is right, there is the question of terror : we can't negociate while business goes on.

Didn't you notice : she nevers answers to arguments but hammers always the same pages, with the lovely addition of a few insults or derogatory remarks. She doesn't want to debate with her opponent but to get rid of him : extreme-right behaviour at its best...

Why do you write here if Israel should not exist? Is it because the palestinian authority do not provide freedom of speech there, so you have to come here to give your opinion?

The world has changed since 2,000 years ago.

You are a good man Ramzi but a bit naive. I think Abu Mazen will get the support but I also think he will not survive because it is not in the interest of many many people in the Arab world to end this conflict, they will find a way to dispose of him. Let's assume for a moment that I am wrong on that point and he does survive and we do enter negotiations. Do you think Israel will agree to the 1967 borders ? I can tell you the answer to that is a definite no. Do you think Palestinians will agree to any sort of compromise on these borders or for a land swap. I can again tell you the answer to that is also a definite no. So where does that leave us ? In a stalemate, in this situation, because of the Arab mindset another intifada is on the cards, where will this bring us ? You will go on suffering. Ramzi, I am going to say something to you which is very very honest and from my heart, al eini wa al rasi min elbi. I do not want to see you or any Palestinian suffer, when I see another suffer I also suffer, but ya sahbi, all the suffering you have brought on yourselves, your leaders from way way back in the last century took the wrong path and it has taken you to a living hell. Get rid of the leaders and start thinking positive. Mubarak was once asked by Arafat why the Palestinians have no State, Mubarak replied, because you, Arafat, are not Ben Gurion. I hope I am wrong in my predictions above, and I wish I had your optimism. Problem is Ramzi, I know I am right. It is very sad. Salaam wamabruk.

I guess that Goldwhatever believes that the sun evolves around Planet USA-ISRAEL and that the rest of the world is getting the light because in Planet USA-ISRAEL they are madly generous ! but you know what my friend? The day we will have a peace a agreement, these people will be the first to get disappointed! This is what draws a smile on my face when i think about the subject....

Borders or what it really IS .... an ARMISTICE line ............ Definition: ....break in fighting: a truce in a war to discuss terms for peace ..... SO get educated in terms and in terms of past history - otherwise you look really stupid So here AGAIN: Get your facts right !!! Learn about Laws and agreements before you Arabs post crap. The so called "Green Line" has never represented an international boundary. The 1949 ARMISTICE AGREEMENTS specifically refer to this fact. There was never a recognized and legitimate sovereign in the West Bank. The legal status of these areas remains that of disputed territory- to be resolved through negotiations . It is this that is required by Security Council Resolutions 242 and 338, which call for the parties to start negotiations , inter alia, on "secure and recognized boundaries", and agreements reached between the parties specifically refer to the need for direct negotiations to resolve this issue. IF YOU CANNOT FACE .... facts - then go and see a proper Lawyer who will explain this to you You are welcome to get in touch with the Asser Institute T.M.C. they can help you you and educate You http://www.asser.nl/index.htm

Israeli presence in Yesha does not constitute "occupation," and moreover, that the U.N. Partition Resolution of 1947 is a "recommendation" and not obligatory. "Up until 1948, Judea, Samaria and Gaza were a part of the British Mandate. In the 1948 War of Independence, Egypt illegally grabbed the Gaza Strip, and Jordan took Judea and Samaria, the 'West Bank.' Egypt did not claim sovereignty in Gaza, but Jordan deigned, in 1950, to annex Judea and Samaria. This annexation was not recognized by international law. The Arab nations objected to it, In 1967, after the Six Day War, these territories - which were originally meant for the Jewish Nation's National Home according to the Mandate Charter - returned to Israeli control." in 1988, King Hussein of Jordan rescinded its legal and administrative ties to Judea and Samaria. "According to international law," "Israel has full right to try to populate the entire Land of Israel with dense Jewish settlement, and thus actualize the principles set by the League of Nations in the original Mandate Charter of San Remo in 1920. At that time, the mandate to the Land of Israel was granted to the British, and the introduction to the mandate charter states clearly that it is based on the international recognition of the historic ties between the Jewish People and the Land of Israel. Clause II of that mandate charges Britain with 'ensuring the existence of political, administrative, and economic conditions that will guarantee the establishment of the Jewish national home in the Land of Israel.'" "Even the White Paper of 1922," emphasized the Jewish Nation's rights to the national home in the Land of Israel - while at the same time tearing away almost 80% of the mandate's area on the eastern side of the Jordan and giving it to Emir Abdullah." There is nothing in international law that requires a Palestinian state between the Jordan River and the Mediterranean - not even the UN Partition Resolution of Nov. 29, 1947. The fact that the Arab states did not accept the Partition Plan, voids the recommendation of any legal basis. Resolutions 242 and 338, which call for negotiations and a "withdrawal from territories" (not "withdrawal from THE territories") captured in 1967, are similarly "recommendations." These resolutions were drawn up under the UN Charter's Clause VI, which deals with non-mandatory recommendations - as opposed to Clause VII resolutions, "which are mandatory, and which deal with a threat to world peace, such as those taken against Iraq." If by chance you don't understand Intl. Law - you should take a lawyer and file for arbitration and explanations with the T.M.C. Asser Institute on Intl. Law in the Hague. http://www.asser.nl/index.htm Good Luck ALSO: Israel White Paper – Israel's Legal Rights to Judea, Samaria, and Gaza http://www.israelwhitepaper.org/

But then NO arabs ever stood up to agreements - otherwise they would have had a State today

I am in the direction that says that our problem should be solved through negotiations, but after reading several posts I start thinking seriously if there is a way that we can talk and find a solution, everyone of us is in different valley! You declare a history of Palestinian that is silly and ridiculous for me, I am not sure if you are really believe in it or you just forcing your self to believe in it so you can find some excuse for your occupation and existence here. When the crusaders came to our land they had similar ideas, they believed that this land belongs to Christians, in that time Arabs were weak and the crusaders stayed there for nearly 200 years until the Arabs solved their internal problems and faced them and kicked them out. My question is, do you really think that you can manage to stay in our land for very long time? I know that Arabs now are very weak to do anything, but how long this situation will remain!

(1) the international community, including the US, consider the territories as occupied (2) the supreme court has never taken side on this issue (3) but implements the humanitarian rules of the geneva conventions on occupied territories... (4) the state of israel has used the occupied status of gaza as the legal basis of the expulsion of the settlers. Otherwise, it would have been legally impossible to expel israelis from their home (5) now to the real world, what is a land held, against the will of its population, by the army of a neighbouring country?

It was for a region only - while a permament State was NOT drawn - and the British were in charge of the then Mandated Palestine - meaning a region - in the absence of State - it was NOT a State. The pass was written in English - Hebrew and Arabic - with a meaning of British Mandated region only I have a copy of a Relative - of the same so called PASS - 96915 -in the name of: Miss Charlotte Neumann (Jewish) It was NOT a Sovereign State passport. It was a British Control Mandated Pass. At that time the Jews who helped in W.W.II and actively went into the war against the Nazis - where also then considered Jewish Palestinians that came with their greenish trucks marked with the Star of David - and writen in a circle around it - Palestine But again it was referring to A REGION - not a State. At that time - the Jerusalem Post was the Palestine Post The Jewish Philharmonia Orchestra - was then called Palestine Philharmonia - referring to Jews from that Mandated Region want me to carry ON ??? It was only ever a name for a British Mandate Region - never a State.

I don't think it's gonna change any time soon if you are still weak since the crusaders :P

As long as the Palestinians continue to talk about refugees returning to their homes, this is a non-starter. Israel will never agree to such a condition.

Read and understand all the League of Nations decisions. Read and understand all the decisions taken at Versaiiles. Read and understand all the UN resolutions. Read and understand all the decisions taken by France and England during and after ww one.Only after you have done this are you entitled to express opinions on the legality of borders and armistice lines. Everything she says is correct. This is called international convention. Please nobody call in and say to me that 242calls for Israel to return to 1967 borders, it does not. I repeat, it does not. What she says is fact, legal fact, what you say is nonsense, hyped up nonsense. Read and understand the facts before opinionating. Also please do not call in to say Britain and France had no right, yes they did have a right, this was ratified at Versailles.

Please do not distort the truth. I do not doubt for one moment that your grandfather was born in 1914, but he did not hold apassport in 1914. If he had a palestinian passport, and I have no doubt, it was issued by the British Mandated Territory of Palestine. this was not a country as you well know. Born in 1914, maybe he had a Turkish birth certificate, depending on his dob. Ramzi, stick to the absolute truth it suits you better.

You are dead right. "Your existence in our land". I know history and I know exactly where we came from. I also know exactly where you came from. Stop trying to feed nonsense to the whole world.

Abbas whats to have a referendom? Well I hope you are not buying it. It is another strategic step to fool the world. For one, the "67 borders" are not going to be any furture border. There is no way that 150,000 plus people (just a guess, I have no data on this) will be thrown out of there homes. It is impossible. It will be the end of the state of Israel. Even the leftys who dream of the day to kick Jews out of their homes know it is not realistic. The vote is like Bush asking for a refernedom to vote korea to give uo their nuclear program. Its nonsense and this is only a stunt to make abbas look more moderate. This pig has blood dripping from his hands. I will never be kicked out of my home. I will never hit my brother either. Just know that the man breaking down my door will no longer be my brother.

ramzi as a palestinian i never beleive that the zionist nation will ever give us the land of the 1967 , how can you convince me otherwise , i like your talkbacks and the way you think , but please tell me how can we trust the jews after all they have done to us .......

Her response (#7) to the "Abu Shishlik" posting (#2) illustrates loud and clear that this woman is completely clueless about the Middle East. And yet she goes on posting about borders as if she's some kind of expert. "Better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to speak out and remove all doubt." Abraham Lincoln.

Yakov, you sound to be a true israeli, which is a good sign, most of the others posting here have nothing to do with israel!Anyways, regarding your fears and pessimisms, I totally understand them and honestly i dont undermine them! But i reached a point where Every little positive step looks HUGE TO ME and where every little positive step needs a great amount of interest in order to grow up! This is not being Naive, this is being full of hope for reconciliation one day! 1967...1948....All this has no meaning whatsoever now, the only meaning will come through a social equal dialog between the Two concerned nations ! I prefer to believe that Abu Mazen will succeed, because i believe in his intentions! I believe in the man himself and i believe in my DREAM! And i tend to believe that Everyone will have to compromise, Both us and israel! But a compromise through negotiations without any PREFORMULATED statements! the Arab mindset doesnt exist in my eyes, we have a Palestinian mindset , that"s right! But we are far away from having an Arab one! And i honestly don't want it us much as i want a global mindset of reconciliation and prosperity! What if we all live Happy, prosperous and in security ? You know that the USA is one of the first countries to have interests in our conflict as for the arab leaders, as long as we are fighting, they will never have to face the scary question of an Arab unity! Thats why, they are not doing much! I believe that a responsibly negotiatied free Palestinian state will be good for all the region and a turning point for this world order, outdated now! In times where all the world is trying to come closer, we in the middle east are drifting appart at light speed! Together we can stop this! And ...together we are much stronger! I miss the few years after Oslo, the years of hope and of coexistence, It lasted enough to show us the WE CAN LIVE TOGETHER! Anyways...Have hope my friend, its the key! HOPE!

What we need is more voices like yours...moderate...logical...peaceful. If Palestinians had a leadership with your values...there would be peace, there would be a palestinian state and the ME would be a paradise again. It's too bad that most Palestinians don't want these things. Keep up your ways though!!!

matter if the LEFT likes it or NOT: Israeli presence in Yesha does not constitute "occupation," and moreover, that the U.N. Partition Resolution of 1947 is a "recommendation" and not obligatory. "Up until 1948, Judea, Samaria and Gaza were a part of the British Mandate. In the 1948 War of Independence, Egypt illegally grabbed the Gaza Strip, and Jordan took Judea and Samaria, the 'West Bank.' Egypt did not claim sovereignty in Gaza, but Jordan deigned, in 1950, to annex Judea and Samaria. This annexation was not recognized by international law. The Arab nations objected to it, In 1967, after the Six Day War, these territories - which were originally meant for the Jewish Nation's National Home according to the Mandate Charter - returned to Israeli control." in 1988, King Hussein of Jordan rescinded its legal and administrative ties to Judea and Samaria. "According to international law," "Israel has full right to try to populate the entire Land of Israel with dense Jewish settlement, and thus actualize the principles set by the League of Nations in the original Mandate Charter of San Remo in 1920. At that time, the mandate to the Land of Israel was granted to the British, and the introduction to the mandate charter states clearly that it is based on the international recognition of the historic ties between the Jewish People and the Land of Israel. Clause II of that mandate charges Britain with 'ensuring the existence of political, administrative, and economic conditions that will guarantee the establishment of the Jewish national home in the Land of Israel.'" "Even the White Paper of 1922," emphasized the Jewish Nation's rights to the national home in the Land of Israel - while at the same time tearing away almost 80% of the mandate's area on the eastern side of the Jordan and giving it to Emir Abdullah." There is nothing in international law that requires a Palestinian state between the Jordan River and the Mediterranean - not even the UN Partition Resolution of Nov. 29, 1947. The fact that the Arab states did not accept the Partition Plan, voids the recommendation of any legal basis. Resolutions 242 and 338, which call for negotiations and a "withdrawal from territories" (not "withdrawal from THE territories") captured in 1967, are similarly "recommendations." These resolutions were drawn up under the UN Charter's Clause VI, which deals with non-mandatory recommendations - as opposed to Clause VII resolutions, "which are mandatory, and which deal with a threat to world peace, such as those taken against Iraq." If by chance you don't understand Intl. Law - you should take a lawyer and file for arbitration and explanations with the T.M.C. Asser Institute on Intl. Law in the Hague. http://www.asser.nl/index.htm Good Luck ALSO: Israel White Paper – Israel's Legal Rights to Judea, Samaria, and Gaza http://www.israelwhitepaper.org/

understand legal issues and agreements - but this is the constant Arab problems - and the Left No idea about history - agreeements and it's legal implications Same thing each time Thanks - shalom

Abbas accuses Israel of killing their people everyday oblivious to the fact that his people--HamastanFatahan Islamist-Jihadist terrorists have been massacring Israelis every day with their suicide zombies. In the minds of HamastanFatahan Islamist-Jihadist terrorists, it is OK to kill Jews but it is NOT OK for Jews to defend themselves. Olmert made a mistake in his speech when he said that he believed Abbas is a sincere person to make peace with. The fact is there is no difference between the HamastanFatahan leaders and their suicidal zombies that they brainwashed, sponsored and unleashed to kill Israelis en masse. If not for the vigilance of Israel security forces, daily slaughterings of Jews of Holocaust proportion would have been carried out by HamastanFatahan Islamist-Jihadist butchers. Israel must remain strong and courageous in defending her historic and biblical homeland and in confronting her enemies whose intention is to inflict a "final solution" on the Jewish people by wiping off Israel. The fact is all the cities in Judea and Samaria are the historic and biblical Jewish cities since the time of their forefathers--Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. Israel must never allow her enemies to dictate the terms of gobbling up her historic and biblical land of Judea and Samaria which the Jewish people have defended, preserved, fought and won with their sweats and blood over the millennia. No external entities or squatters have a right to tell Israel to give away her own historic and biblical homeland to Arab Islamist-Jihadists whose ultimate goal is to inflict a "final solution" on the Jews by wiping off Israel. If the Arab Islamist-Jihadists are dreaming about a 1967 malarkey, they might as well dream of returning to their historic homeland in Southeastern Arabia.

she has great postings, so she missed the abu shishlik joke, give her a break.

You can trust the Jews better than you can trust your Arab brothers, and you KNOW this.

Ramzi, hi 1) If there was a dunam per dunam transfer, such that the Palestinian state was essentially as large as it'd be under the 1967 Green Line boundaries but that the boundaries would be modified from what they are are now, do you think Palestinians would accept this (border mechanisms would be worked out with tunnels and bridges to ensure easy passage through/around "islands" of each side's sovereingty)? Why? 2) Do you think the Palestinians would accept a situation where a) there was an agreement that there were no more claims against Israel (formal end of conflict), b) that the Palestinians would not have any rights to live in Israel and c) that there would be no agreement by Israel to admit that the whole conflict was its fault, and none of it was the Palestinians' fault (yet permitting the Palestinians and Israelis to believe whatever they want to believe)? Why? 3) Do you think that Palestinians (forget the Israeli Arabs or Diaspora Palestinians for a moment) would accept the areas of intensely populated Arab areas just slightly over the Green Line, like Um Al Fachem, Kfar Kassem and Baka al Gharbiya, in exchange for Israel taking sovereignty over places like Maaleh Adumim, Kiryat Sefer, Ramat Eshkol, Ramot, Gush Etzion, etc., in the context of the dunam/dunam exchange referred to in 1 above? Why? As I understand it these are the deals more or less that Arafat refused when Barak offered them. Please clarify what you see as feasible, and why these offers weren't accepted before.