It's amazing that there are so many people in the world with your viewpoint. You have taken the current situation and looked at it as a snapshot in time. You have to consider the histroy of the area and look at the actions of BOTH sides. Israel took the initiative to give Gaza to the arabs, with the intention of also giving a huge majority of the west bank. When a step like this is taken, it is in the interest of the receiving party to make it work. They turned gaza into a terrorist base, run by a terrorist government. They have sent over 1000 qassams into Israel over the last 11 months. If anything, i think your little analogy of who the "african-american" and who the "white Protestant Christian" is, in this instance, is a little misplaced!!! You also need to ask yourself, which palestinian government this land was stolen from, what their currency was, who the president was at the time of colonisation and what their historical attachment to the land is.

what Israel doesn't learn is that she cannot negotiate with the 'palestinians' because there is a always double talk and lying. When you got Gaza this should have been a huge step towards peace, but you elected hamas and the qassams started flying. Who is arrogant? Is this what Islam is about? Terror?

Charley, it's tendentious to call it "Palestinian land". Let's start with that. There is and was no country of Palestine. There are Arabs that want to establish such a country, there are money Jews and even an Israeli government who wants to help them do that if only it wouldn't mean the elimination of Israel, and under all international precedents the ONLY reason they have the right to self determination, rather than to be subsumed into Jordan and Egypt, is the existence of the Oslo Accords that created the PA. Look up Montivideo conference on wikipedia. The lands that the settlements are built on, with a few exceptions that were in court and resolved and that are going to court to be resolved, were on lands that were not legally titled to the people who claim it to be theirs. Rather, these were lands that were either purchased for legal title, were abandoned according to Ottoman Law (the law that applies to these territories) and thus the property of the State, or State property. The argument is then twofold - whether the lands are owned by somebody, in which case the argument is one of civil law, and the other whether a potential state has a right to claim land. There is no precedent for the latter, so there is no stolen land. And the case is bidirectional. There are many parts of the West Bank, even Syria and Jordan, not to mention Arab states, that are owned by Jews but they cannot utilize their rights on those lands. Let's see a little self-righteousness for these Jews, Charley, to match the ivory tower puffy chested righteousness you display for Palestinians. Regarding the roads, they were built to benefit the Arabs as well. Therefore, there were no checkpoints until the Palestinians started with their suicide bombings and we needed to intercept the bombers before they reached us. You portray the facts as though they were designed to exclude Arabs, and this is not the case at all. So, it's obvious that those who can't condemn the Palestinians for attacking Jews are the ones who are the racist pigs. The hands of the Jews were put out in peace, and it is the Palestinians who shunned the opportunity. The blame is then the Palestinians' to shoulder, as they, not the Jews, are the raped child in the scenario you raise. Further, it's now clear that erasing the Jewish state will only result in a fundamentalist Islamic state, and we now have Gaza's Hamas government as proof of that. I think people with useable brains, unlike those who support Charley's views, understand full well that the fault lay clearly with the Palestinian recidivists, and that it is the Arabs who are the victimizers, not the Jews. I say "Arabs" and not Palestinians because, contrary to Charley's claim, the Palestinians have dozens and dozens of skirts to hide behind, amounting to much more than the protection of a superpower, due to the fact that most of the world's oil is controlled by Arab countries. They have the 3rd world coalition. They have the Islamic state coalition. They have the Arab state coalition (Arab League). They have Russia. They have China. They have the EU. All of these have things in common, that they are the supplier or consumer of oil, or the supplier or consumer of political favors that prevent them from being called to task for their human rights violations or their unfair rule over minorities (Durban is only one example).. So don't give us ethics lessons, Charley - blind, cowardly, ammoral fools don't rise to the level that gives a person the right to speak of ethics. We aren't your city's baseball team, we aren't here to be your hobby, to give you something to keep score over, or to root against. We are here to build and maintain a country. Anybody who threatens us will have to account for their actions.

There is no evidence that the Palestinians want to live in peace. You are simply engaging in wishful thinking.

Why monopolize the word "gay" to mean homosexual when people who are happy were "gay"? You know damn well why the word "anti-semetic" is used. Look it up on wikipedia. It was a word coined to refer to hatred of Jews, and it's stupid to answer the phrase with the kind of argument you raise.

it is for sure a hard and dangerous work and not the most pleasant one...but I hope all our soldiers will be safe at home at the end. May God continue to protect all IDF and Israel like in the past 60 years.

force in the world. Any other army with its fighting power would have flattened Gaza and its terror monsters. So go cry to the UN with its islamist toadies about the "shock" of a people who tollerate appalling terror leaders - and whine about stolen land - which is BS. But the truth is Israel has a right to defend itself and does so with humanity and restraint. Mabe one day the Palestinians will wake up and build a state in Gaza, Judea and Samaria and live side by side in peace with Israel. Hope spings eternal, and the Jews are a very hopeful people.

It was under Ottoman Rule. Does this mean that you should have occupied Lebanon too!! There was no Kuwait, no Bahrain, etc..... Althoutgh there was no such politically entities, there were people there named Bahraini, named Palestinian, just referring the land name. Palestine was always referring to a land name. Palestinians, or the people livining in Palestine, were having a governate or a statehood under ottomans, omayyid, and all others. This had a special governer, and sometimes this governer was in charge of Lebanon too. He was in Akko! Anyway, the people on the land of Palestine are free whom to align with. Just like Texas is a state in the USA, Palestine was always a land governed among larger entities, namely islamic entities for 1500 years continuously. Who built the Dome of the Rock, who built Akko, or Jaffa etc.... Palestinians, or those who have been living in Palestine, before the zionist movement started its agression are the natives of the land. They were of different faiths, muslim, christian, or Jew. Zionism, is based on terror and racism. the Jew from Russia has no right in this land. He has no paper work proven ownership of any part of the land. He is just brought in the name of Judaism to occupy Palestinian lands. Stop your lies about Land with no people for people with no land. this does not make sense. this part of the world is historic and people are present here since pre historic times.

Well said Charley Reese.

Do not forget that ISRAEL occupy their land in 1948 and 1967 .....!!!! u must consider this, right ...

Well said. There is a whole sect of people - the "Palestineisamyth" sect whose only remaining religion is to try and prove that there are no such things as Palestinians. I have seen in this forum people writing to Palestinians and telling them directly to tell them that they a figments of their imagination. You, and Charley Reese, have written a very clear retort to these "no brainers" who believe that the Palestinians are simply "squatters on jewish land who came from Arabia to exploid the riches engendered by zionist settlement." For many Zionists, teh concept of land ownership is not one which they uphold in law - unless of course it is their own houses in Santa Monica, or Geneva, or London. When the property deeds are owned by a Palestinian, for some strange reason, many Zionists consider them null and void. This, of course, stinks to heaven of racism. An often overlooked statistic is that pre-1948 only 2% of the land/assets of the state of Israel had actually been purchased legally, the other 98% being expropriate after the ceasefire of 1948. This is the festering sore, as well as the hundreds of thousands of dispossessed - and, as in Northern Ireland, until the Israeli side actually comes to terms with the huge criminal acts of ethnic cleansing and theft which they carried out in 1948 and 1967, the prospects for the future are rather bleak. Perhaps we should also start a campaign to mirror the idiotic belief of those right-wing zionists - "Israelisamyth" - it would be easier to prove. Well said Mr Historian - most succintly put - but the fact that the indigenous population of Palestine exists and has title deeds to most of the property/lands in the country will only serve to incense the rabid morons of Geneva and Santa Monica. We might also add, that many, many voices of reason do exist inside Israel, and most people would be extremely happy to come to a settlement/agreement with the Palestinians to right a historic wrong - but they are held hostage by a small, evil, criminal band of powerful racists who believe that local law and international law do not apply to their "special situation". They are a sickness and should consider moving back to Moscow, Brooklyn and South Africa.

No. 38, you jave conveniently left out all ther historical references (of which there many) relating to continuous jewish connection to the land and location...Palestinian arabs were mainly originally from other tribes other areas that were encouraged to move to Israel. Jews were stopped or hindered in staying in their homeland....historical tracts of all nature affirm this. Do you think that by calling yourself 'historian' and throwing a few quotes you have the answer all tied-up....Shai is right, Who built this who built that...who built the temple...not any palestinians I know...

Interesting that a "historian" would draw upon the lie that Palestinians were here since "pre-historic" times. If you are a real historian, which clearly you are not, you would not look to undocumented evidence to prove your point. That the Palestinians are here from pre-history is a recent theory propogated by Palestinian politicians and those who support the removal of Jews, who do have a long and documented history here, from their land. The same politicians propagate the lie that there was no Temple on the Temple Mount, amongst all the other lies and mythologies spewed by supporters of the Palestinian ahistory. Moreover, Jews aren't claiming all the lands in the Ottoman empire, not Lebanon, not Bahrain and not Kuwait. We are indifferent to what has happened with the rest of the Ottoman Empire. Rather, Jews are claiming the lands of the Kingdom of Judea and the Kingdom of Israel, to which they have the right of self determination and a state, a claim that is far superior to the one built by Palestinians.. Notwithstanding that there never was a Kingdom or any other government of Palestine deserving of the name, no "Palestinian" societies or cultures distinct from surrounding cultures, and notwithstanding that we could frankly care less whether the people of Bahrain or Kuwait have a state, Jews have from the beginning been willing to work in cooperation with the Arabs living here. It's the Arabs that have started this conflict by refusing to allow Jews to return, purchase titles to land, and to establish a State here. They would have benefited by cooperating with this, rather than attacking us. Addressing your point about whether the Palestinians can choose to whom they are appended politically, you are wrong. The issue is whether the Palestinian Arabs deserve a state (that is, whether they have a right to self determination as a "people" that rises higher than that of a labor union, for example) is completely legitimate as a matter of international law. Whether they should be part of the states of Jordan or Egypt is a legitimate question, legally. The reason it's an issue is that granting the Palestinians separate rights of determination from them has been at the expense of Israel's right to self-determination, a right that is solidly established on international case law. At best, the Palestinian right to separate self-determination is finessed. At worst, it's an outright legal lie propagated by those who wish the Palestinians well, or those who fear what not cooperating will bring them (terrorism, oil embargoes, etc). The question is whether the Palestinians have a right to land that has no owner of title, or whether they have the right to remove Jews from their patriarchal heritgage, flows from the answer to the previous question. So don't confuse the issue - the Dome of the Rock was built on the Temple Mount. Acco and Jaffa were built on Jewish cities that existed long before Arabs built there. And, don't lie about "Zionist Aggression", as if you are really a historian, you know that Zionists wanted to build their state together with Arabs, not instead of them. It was Arab aggression that led to Zionist aggression, not the reverse. That may not "make sense" to you, but it's the fact, something that real students of history are aware of.

I dare you prove "Israel is a myth" because unless you are destroying archaelogical evidence, you will be HUGELY wrong. As for the rest, your beliefs are based purely on farbications. by the way, your people are so 'peace-loving', if Israel were to give land to 'palestinians' will they be able to claim their land back from the arab states they had to flee?? How fair are you guys REALLY?? show the world, i dare you AGAIN.

We aren't claiming Palestinians are a myth. We are claiming they don't have separate rights of self determination aside from those of Jordanians and Egyptians, and they should be Jordanians or Egyptians. The fact that this is not wanted by Egyptians, Palestinians or Jordanians does not mean that the solution is at the expense of Israel, Rustum. We tried to come to a solution with the Palestinians and have continued to be rewarded for our efforts and concessions with non-stop terrorism. So, aside from all your high minded airy fairy philosophies, there will be no "justice" as you define it for Palestinians unless they are willing to accept the justice we have earned, and deserve, to have our own state living securely within defensible borders.

Now you have shown me,that your are about as ignorant as I thought you were. You really do not have any idea,of what you write about. I have just wasted my time with you.

Now go and check the 'Palestine' name origin, and you will find out that the Romans changed ISRAEL's name to Phlistine, and thats the origin. Hence, they are occupying our land. The Romans changed the name to Phlistine because it's Israel's enemy in the bible. (Plishtim, peleshet). We offered them peace in many ways, there were no road blocks before they used them to bomb our civilians, there were no electricy bombing until they stole our soldiers. There were no solar problems when they didnt use it to fuel their kassams. There were not money problems when they didn't use it to buy weapons. Rustum will say everything I say is a lie, because that's all he can do. He can't face the truth, so he either twists it and then screams 'OCCUPATION', or just changes the subject and preaches about something else, you, maybe, can understand what I'm saying being an 'historian' and all. Every policy was written in blood, they have brought upon theirselves every policy we have. We block their sea ways because they use it to inflitrate israel, we block their air because they do the same from the air, and we block them from land because of the very same reason. Ever since we did it, suicide bombings have decreased in about %80. We used to have a suicide bomber every week. Maybe even twice a week, now they keep trying and get nothing. You don't want us to be aggressive? very well. Return our soldier. stop your terror. And then we will simply have no reason to attack. Then we can sit down and negotiate. Right now all you do is prove to us that all we did was right and maybe we even need to take even more hard measures.

Answer these simple questions about 'palestine' When was it founded and by whom? What were its borders? What was its capital? What were its major cities? What constituted the basis of its economy? What was its form of government? Can you name at least one Palestinian leader before Arafat? Was Palestine ever recognized by a country whose existence, at that time or now, leaves no room for interpretation? What was the language of the country of Palestine? What was the prevalent religion of the country of Palestine? What was the name of its currency? Choose any date in history and tell what was the approximate exchange rate of the Palestinian monetary unit against the US dollar, German mark, GB pound, Japanese yen, or Chinese yuan on that date. Have they left any artifacts behind? Do you know of a library where one could find a work of Palestinian literature produced before 1967? And, finally, since there is no such country today, what caused its demise and when did it occur?

All I am saying is that I do realize there has never been a history of a palestinian state and that the arabs did chose to make wars against israel, I'm just saying that they should not be held to account for their actions and should not pay any price for their decisions. I also think that the arab worlds ethnic cleansing of 99.5% of all jews from their countries is irrelevant. I also think that the fact that no jews are allowed to immigrate into arab countries is irrelevant. So what if there are apartheid walls around all arab countries that prohibit jews and christians and any other infidel from immigrating into their countries. That is irrelevant because arabs should not be held accountable, only jews should. And I think that when arafat said at camp david, "ahhh, I just can't do it"... what he really meant was, "we are close, we are almost there, lets keep trying". And I think that the fact that hamas wants to destroy israel is irrelevant. Don't hold arabs accountable. And I think these kassams are no big deal, you jews should wait until jews are injured by them before you fight back, (oh wait, they have killed and injured israelis already, scratch that). Just don't hold arabs accountable, please. I have to go now, I'm going to start protesting the illegal immigration policies of the arab countries that do not allow us infidels to immigrate into their countries. See....I'm not a hypocrite.

Dude you rock. Keep up the good work. I enjoy your posts as I am sure many others do. You are right on the mark.

Well done in terms of "words" but some lacks of logic. You said -Lebanon did not exist-why not to invade it. So simple-because Lebanon was established just like Israel in it's own borders and Israel did not intend to expand the borders if Israel borders were secure.Remember Israel was attacked in 1948 and no other way. And except Egypt the other states emerged from the British Palestine just like Israel.Were that states legitimate in attacking Israel????I'm not going further with my explanation because I know how you think but if the arabs are so "kind and gentle and democratic" how about the jews properties left in arab countries ?and why a jew is not allowed to even enter and live a normal life in an arab country???? Do you think over one million arabs in Israel fear for their lives???

Yes, MATE, I am a very proud Aussie. We have the greatest country in the world - people flock to come here from all over the world. And our govt and all the Australian people are 100% supportive and fully understanding of Israel's position. Apart from the USA, Australia is Israel's greatest friend and a haven of peace and prosperity for Jews. Go AUSSIE GO IDF!!

The two five-year old boys may have a physical resemblance, especially because a lot of Israelis originally came from Arab countries, but the difference is some Palestinian 5-year olds are already graduates of suicide bomber kindergarten.

I agree with you and I don't think enough Americans appreciate just how good an ally Australia has been. We constantly hear about Tony Blair's steadfast loyalty, but it should be noted that he extracted a quid pro quo from the U.S. and it was that damnable "Road Map." John Howard, on the other hand, has given America his total support with no strings attached. Australia rocks!!!

Too right gal, we're with you all the way! We will always support and stand by our friend and ally, America! You can count on us.

Do us all a favour, pick up a book and stop vaunting your own prejudices.

This is the mess that disengagement created. Now it has to be cleaned up.

I'm just saying I don't have an answer for you, I know palestine has never been a country before, but I just have trouble holding arabs accountable for their actions and decisions.

The discussion as to whether Palestine exists is too ridiculous for words. Does France exist? Does Italy exist? The blithering idiots who keep repeating the question and asking for proof are simply victims of their own delusions. so - the Palestinians don't exist? who's firing rockets at you? Oh, it must be the squatting Arabs who only live there because they wish to benefit from teh trickle down benefits of living next to the Zionist state - big laugh there. The only benefits of that are constant death from the heavens. All you "Palestineisamyth" and "JordanisPalstine" crowd are so sadly out of touch. Taht particular pathetic and tawdry little campaign died the death of a damp squib years ago - it's just that you are too bigotted and ignorant to realise it. Da dude's constant list of questions is no more than the racist rantings of a sadly deluded bigot - not even worth the finger-time to respond to his puerile "what did they write? what language did they speak" - billious and odious repetitions.