You do not recite torah. You recite the agenda of liberals to tear down thousands of years of sages and wisdom of TORAH given by MOSHE RABBEINU, WHICH WILL BE HERE LONG AFTER YOU HAVE BEEN OBLITERATED from this world and the next. TORAH gives many examples of those that have rebelled against 'GDS' laws with words of stupidity .They have been wiped out unless they repented. "GD" SAID CLEARLY THAT IT IS AN ABOMINATION IN "HIS" EYES. WE HATE THE EVIL ACT, NOT THE PERSON. Your argument is an intentional distortion and blurring of the person and the issues(laws of Torah). you are running a con game on the public. The person that acts intentionally against the torah in public and not privatly is even more evil. TORAH IS consistent always was and alway will be consistent. IT DEPENDS ON THE PERSON USING TORAH TO DISTORT FOR HIS AGENDA OR TORAH FOR HOLY KNOWLEDGE. WE LOVE ALL MANIND AS ALL OUR SAGES SAID. BUT FOR THE GREATER GOOD OF OUR COMMUNITY THERE ARE TIMES THAT WE MUST SEPERATE FROM THE EVIL DOERS.... Unless there is a sage that can guide this person who commits these acts of abominations and acts of an animal to repent to a moral standard of torah, we must seperate from them. Homosexuality is against TORAH .. You want to bring the world DOWN to those standards of perversions.. The world wants to bring you UP to the higher standards of TORAH and to a rich moral society to raise families and prosper. >TORAH IS CONSISTENT. distortions are consistent >HOMOSEXUALITY IS AN ABOMINATION >MANKIND IS ON A HIGHER PLATEAU THEN ANIMAL ACTS.. PEOPLE MUST SEPARATE FROM THOSE THAT PUBLICALLY MOCK TORAH AND THOSE THAT WOULD BRING US DOWN TO THE LOWEST LEVELS OF AN ANIMAL ACCORDING TO THE LAWS THAT MOSES BROUGHT DOWN TO US FROM "GD".

I have seen your posts before. You believe that homosexuality is an abomination. B'seder. It is your view, and you are entitled to it. But your analogy is exactly the point: nobody is forcing you to leave Ra'anana and go to any of the World Pride events in Jerusalem. Nobody is disturbing you with loud music. Nobody is disturbing you at all. Nobody is forcing anybody in Israel, not even any Jersalemite to come to any of these events. They will not be at any religious shrine, or any residential area - they will be downtown and they will be dignified and modest, by any standard that you see every day at the corner of King George and Jaffa Streets. If it were like loud music in your living room, you would be right to oppose it. And I would oppose it too. But Jerusalem is big enough for all of us to enjoy. Don't come to the events. Stay home. Have a picnic somewhere else. Study. Pray. Read a book. Take in a movie or a DVD. Visit with your friends and family. But let us have our time to express ourselves in our capital city.

the evil and hate in your heart. And you also have a nasty potty mouth for which you need a good potch in tuchus.

when your own actions like posting horrible racist things in the window of your store in Calfornia drove you out of business? Like calling all muslims names like "towel head?" The point is, nobody on the gay side is looking to do anything but assmble in Jersalem, the capital city of ALL of the Jewish people. With dignity, modesty but with pride in who we are. It is the religious extremists who are creating the controversy. We are not willing to say that we are not welcome in the capital city. That is not any intent to create a controversy, but merely a reality that we have a right to be there. It is a right we feel is important enough to fight for.

and we will always be here - in roughly the same proportion that we are today. Gay people are born and raised in heterosexual families. You might as well get used to it already. Really, Darwin, use some common sense.

and I do not intend to be in any religious neighborhood. We intend no offense, only to be in our capital city, the capital city of ALL Jews. With modesty and dignity. But we will be there. And if we are confronted - fine. I say to my religious BROTHERS AND SISTERS - Confront away - as long as you confront peacefully. Jerusalem is big enough for all of us to enjoy. As far as disposible income - this trip is sending me to the poor house for along time. But nothing will stop me from being in my beloved Jerusalem with my Gay Israeli brothers and sisters. We too are klal Yisrael - we were at Sinai and we are a part of this nation foreever. So where better a place than Jerusalem to assemble. Its kind of obvious to me. I can't understand why some people don't understand that. It has nothing to do with "in your face" or militancy. It's our home too.

A gay parade is an abomination and must be banned from happening in Jerusalem. This is not to say that gay people are an abomination. Some of them may be very wonderful people. But a parade in which they flaunt their vulgar sexual behaviors is an abomination. So many devout Jews, Christians and Moslems are deeply hurt by this appalling assault on religious values which for thousands of years have been associated with the Holy City of Jerusalem. One would not go into a Synagogue, Church or Mosque and behave in a vulgar sexual way because such places are considered to be Holy Places. Yet, Jerusalem is more holy than any house of worship. Jews, Christians and Moslems must unite and stop this evil event from happening.

Fania states that:- "The values of a liberal society cannot be folded up and returned to the historical closet, unless we are willing to dismantle all of modern Israel society. Most Israelis would be unwilling to pay this price. The fight against homosexual public legitimacy is lost, just like the fight against bare-shouldered women, bare-headed men and heterosexual couples walking arm-in-arm in public. Your fight is destined to fail. You have no hope, just like you had no hope when you tried to silence or scare or re-educate thousands of people with a wide variety of opinions from gaining public voice." She is of course correct. What she fails to understand is that a healthy liberal and tolerant attitude requires one to tolerate illiberal and intolerant attitudes and to give those who hold such opinion some space which is there own. The haredim's political power when it comes to imposing their sexual attitudes towards homosexuality is limited to the districts they live in. I like most people, am not prepared to have 'Jerusalem's attitude' imposed on me so I choose not to live there. I do not however as a matter of pride march through Jerusalem to proclaim that I am morally superior to these Haredim (even though I am think I am) and mock their powerlessness. It is a matter of manners.

Well written and well expressed though your piece is, you evade a simple point. In the pride parades, as far as I'm aware, people go around in underwear and do things that actually even heterosexuals don't do openly in public, at least not in the middle of the day in city streets, maybe in bars at night. The majority residents of a city (including secular Jews like me) have a right to bar this for the same reason that we have, or should have, the right to bar pornographic billboards. There is also a valid concern among not-necessarily-religious conservatives that the total legitimation of homosexuality that you seek could lead to a higher prevalence of homosexuality in society. While a gay person is equal in every way to a hetero person, the two kinds of sexuality are not equal, because only one is procreative, and if we value procreation and life, then we prefer heterosexuality. There are also the issues of gay marriage and gay adoption. In Massachusetts, Catholic adoption agencies have had to close down because they insisted only on placing children with man-woman couples. This "preference" is now illegal in Massachusetts and is considered bigotry. Well, that makes me a bigot. I think a child is much better off having parents of both sexes, rather than two of the same sex. Perhaps the discomfort some "enlightened" secularists feel about "gay pride" and the like has to with an intuition that this is where it leads--to the total legitimation of something that actually is not equal to heterosexuality. Society should indeed tolerate homosexuality but has a right to prefer heterosexuality. That you have a right to disagree with all this, argue against it, demonstrate for your views, etc. is crystal clear to me. What is not clear is that there a right to parade in underwear, kissing and fondling in public and making a spectacle that many people validly regard as offensive and inappropriate.

Allowing the parade would be seen as acceptance of destructive behavior.

"There is no way to turn back the clock. The values of a liberal society cannot be folded up and returned to the historical closet," Demographics march on. The people you are addressing (hareidim), as well as the mainstream orthodox, and the firmly traditional - who combined are already the majority of Israeli society - are having more children than the officianados of secular humanism. There is no need for them to turn back the clock. Time and birthrates are on their side. In the span of a generation they will be ensconced as the indisputable majority. The real demographic threat has never been the arabs, whose birthrate is not only declining, but only on par with the traditional, but the religious. I'm not hareidi (I'm just a kippa sruga kind of guy), but I have little doubt that by the time I am an old man the hareidim will be the dominant face of Israel. I don't begrudge you your religion of secular humansim, but secular humanism and Judaism are not one and the same, and they are often incompatible. When such a disconnect occurs I choose the Torah hands down and without regret. We're coming from two irreconcilable world views and that means there will be conflict. I respect your right to live your life as you choose, but that does not obligate me to respect the choice you make. This, more than anything, is what people are concerned about. Your demand that society view your choice as wholesome and equally valid strips us of the right to our own sacredly held beliefs - and our right to vociferous dissent. We are no more willing to bend than you are - and that's the real gut-buster in this equation: secular humanism is only tolerant of secular humansim. While it claims to embrace tolerance and acceptace it cannot stomache philosophical dissent - especially when that dissent is translated into practical action (and what philosophy is worth a damn if it is not?). We must accept your views because they are "enlightened," but you need not accept ours because they don't fit your "enlightened" humanist world view. As a result, I welcome you to the culture war. And it won't be won in articles like this. It will be won in the maternity ward, which we see far more of than you do. And as for the all of the Torah's ways being peace - poppycock. That's a nice modernist apologetic aimed at soothing minds born of the christianized and now secular humanized west. Some of the Torah's ways are peace. Some are also war. What do we say in our morning prayers every day? "Adonai ish milchomah! Adonai shemo!" If someone wants to make choices I don't approve of in their private lives - all well and good. That's their business even if society doesn't like the choice. That's between them and God. If they want to bring it into the public square and demand society endorse their decision even though society considers it an abberation that's between man and man and its not well and good. Society cannot exist without shared values, boundaries, and norms. We can't have two separate sets of those gevulim and survive as a nation. Thus the culture war. I admire that you stick to your guns, but only if you admire that we also stick to ours. The two way street you propose doesn't only go your way (which is what your article proposes). I will respect your right to your views, but I will also meet you in the public square - and will also do everything in my power not to allow your views, or the sanctification of an abomination, to carry the day.

Among the stupid responses I read were from those who confused homosexual behavior with pedophilia and beastiality. The fact that it is 2006 and people are confusing the issues makes me very very concerned. Obviously these people would (and dont) function very well outside of there cloistured mini society. In the US we had this debate, ABOUT 40 YEARS AGO! Sigh, another reason why I would think hard before moving to Israel. And I am straight. And observant. Who wants to move to a Jewish Teheran?

picture...What a picture!!! I have no words for such an artistic thing!wow.....wow...wow....

The TRADITIONAL are averaging 4.25 children per family. The kippa sruga crowd are having 5-7 (average) and the Hareidim are having 8+ (the average is closer to 10). The secular camp in Israel is having an average of 2, which isn't actually a negatove birthrate when warfare, disease, and accidents are factored in. Oh, and the Arab birthrate (they were the one's slinging death threats) is just a touch higher than the traditional camps.

the economics of the haredi community are unsustainable... the more they breed the more they raise children a percentage of whom will seek to liberate themselves from the haredi lifestyle. As this liberated group reaches a critical mass they will act as an influence on their haredi brothers and sisters who will listen to them in ways the secular from birth are not listened to... remember the haskalah and zionism grew out of the shtetl and the yeshivas of europe. Nothing remains the same.

The haredim will outbreed you. Sure, some will become dati leumi but there is no mass movement to secular hedonistic nihilism. It was not the "Haskalah" that destroyed European Jewry, it was the Holocaust.

But the haskalah isn't the only way it can go. They may well simply move into the more mainstream orthodox camp, or even the modern orthodox camp. I regard those pressures as a good thing for them as it forces them to come to terms with living in a Jewish state. Jobs, the army, responsibility, and positions of responsibility will follow. And if some of them fall into the kippa sruga camp, then, from my perspective, more's the merrier. I know more than one "liberalized" hareidi Jew who, while remaining hareidi in look and practice, have chosen to live in dati tzioni communities.

If all Israelis could be like this righteous woman, there would be Peace on Earth.

Dear Dr. Fania, I read your article and was duly inspired by your closing words: "..But remember that all the Torah's paths are pleasant, and all the Torah's roads are peace. " I have often thought about why the Torah forbids homosexuality, calling it an 'abomination'; wondering how Homosexuality prevents humanity from reaching "peace" and pleasantness, happiness – when one would think, is it not a form of love? Is it not simply the way the Almighty created an individual, to have different sexual preferences? In my quest to understand this I came to understand a deeper precept of the Torah. Torah as divinity is the communicate of the Almighty explaining to us His purpose in creating the world, how to make it into a good world, a peaceful world and one filled with love. This is why, as you mentioned, Rabbi Akiva says "You will love your neighbour as you love yourself" and he says this is a K'lal Gadol baTorah. And Hillel says that indeed, this commandment is "..the entire Torah; the rest is just explanation". Freud is famous for his assertion that sexuality is the foundation of human psychology. This idea is very close to the Torah perspective of universal life and in particular human psychological life. The sages have often described the relationship between the Jewish people and the Almighty as a husband and wife, Almighty being husband and the Jewish people the wife. In Kabbalistic thought the very creation of the world is linguified in terms of Almighty being the male "giver" and the universe being the female "receiver". In a relationship the person who truly receives becomes the ultimate giver and the one who truly gives ultimately becomes the receiver, for if one side does not carry its role effectively there develops an unhealthy relationship and ultimately the relationship does not reach its full potential. All of humanity relies on human relationships, at the core of which lie the sexual relationship, mums, dads and babies. In addition there is the idea that every person is a 'microcosm', a miniature world and on top of that the idea that a man and woman in marriage are two half souls completed. In order for a society to reach its full potential all its elements must be complete. For instance, the government and the people must work in a healthy relationship. If there is an imbalance we find the country is a dictatorship or in a state of anarchy. Let us compare the government to the 'male giver' and the people to the 'female receiver' and let us do so in the light of the above statement regarding 'receiver ultimately being the giver'. Now let us imagine that instead of there being a government and the population - there was instead a government and then another government, no population. Does that scenario make sense? I don't think so. What does make sense is a government issuing policies based on what is good for the people and the people reciprocate by adding to the process by helping the government find what is good for them. This is what I mean by the receiver being the ultimate giver and actually this whole process turning into a very "happy circle" (as opposed to a vicious circle). In the light of the above, picture two men trying to make a ''happy circle'' together, as husband and husband. Assuming the Torah is true and indeed the Almighty created the world in perfection, the purpose of time being His giving us, humanity, the opportunity to "receive" or to perceive this perfection, perhaps this is an answer to the question “What is so terrible about Homosexuality that the Torah calls it an abomination?” You may dispute these conclusions but I ask that you give them honest thought and examination of facts.

Im secular too, and I know that there are many things datiim find offensive There are two things to be balanced here: 1). Expressing yourself; 2). Taking into account other peoples feelings Come parade in Tel Aviv, we will welcome you here I promise, Ill even march with you. I been to Sydney many times to mardi gras its good party my girlfriend love it too But why march in Yerushalayim? Youre upsetting so many people in a way you cannot even imagine When some Haredi comes to Tel Aviv and tells me not to drive on shabbat I say to him when he is in his home town he can do what he want but dont tell me what to do in my home town But would I drive on shabbat in Yerushalayim in a religious neighbourhood? No. Why upset people that way uncessarily?

my lease and any stories to the contrary are fantasy. It is not racism to call violent pigs what they are, pigs. Blowing up a restrauant or a bus is the work of a violent pig, not a human being. Andy, you currently have the right to go about your business and do what you want in any city in Israel, you probably have more rights there than in the US. I am not being hateful toward gays, you just want to pick a fight for the sake of picking a fight, to march for what, the Orthodox to throw you flowers? A gay pride march in Jerusalem is simply BAD manners, thumbing your nose at people you know you will hurt, making tolerant people less tolerant, harming your ability to be thought of as a neighbor. My window signs certainly did piss on the violent scum of the earth who want to see every Jew dead. Killers deserve no courtesy. And all the terrorists are rag head pigs, towel head is someone else's term. Israel will have peace when they deport all arabs, the people who want to kill all Jews. I don't have an anti-gay program, I do have a "Don't let the terrorist pigs kill the Jews" agenda. Its too bad you can't act like a peaceful neighbor instead of a bitter snot.

Read the Tochacha. God hates freaks who are immoral and imitate the wicked among the non-jews. before hitler killed europe the jews led the homosexual movement in berlin. read "pink sawastika" the leftists freak zionists caused the last holocaust and are bringing the next one too. god bless you #6 and god help you save us from the child molesting deviants before the euronazis and arabs wipe out the world.

As an afterthought: In a peaceful world the only situation where two governments come together is to discuss policy and to bring about change to the greater region. On the other hand the only time where two populations come together is to share in good times, not to govern one another. This is what one would term as a 'straight' relationship, or platonic. There are many levels and layers of "sexual" and "platonic" relationship in human/social relationships. Understanding the importance of male - female relationships and how they operate on their most optimal and generative levels, one can suggest (and I'm sure Freud would agree), is something that would give a lot of understanding to humanity at large, individual societies and of course to individual relationships between people. It says in Ethics of the Fathers that "there is nothing that does not have its' place" - and so I am a firm believer that there is something to be learned from everything. Sometimes the greatest lessons can be learned from that which is the wrong path. Or let's put that differently: sometimes people choose the wrong path because those who claim to do the right path do it wrongly, so the wrong path is chosen in protest, to prove a point. But this does not make it the right path, and really what should really be done is to understand the right path in the right way. Those who protest the wrong interpretations are precisely those who are needed to teach others the right interpretation, but not to use other people's wrongs as an 'excuse' for a different misinterpretation. Another afterthought: Although some religious people don't have the language to communicate why the Torah considers homosexuality a sin, they do believe that the Torah is right. Being that Israel is the Holy Land, which was created by the Bible which embodies peace and understanding and being that Homosexuals and the Pride-Parade itself stand for legitimacy and understanding amongst human-kind it would seem that the correct thing to do would be to respect the feelings of not only Jews but of all faiths that follow the Bible as being True, Christians and Muslims and to refrain from parading in Jerusalem. Once again, I hope you give thorough thought to all the above and I look forward to your response. With respect, Peace

Imagine that every group wud march in pride of his/her sexual preference..There are plenty of other places to march, why not Saudia Arabia, Iran, or Syria to name a few, I am sure u wud find them most tolerant (NOT) Look I get the message, the Gays are out of the closet, Hurrah for them, so why do i need to be bothered with it, why rub it in my face, they are exist they here to stay, Mazal Tov I have no problem with that, i am just fed up with hearing about it day in day out. I dont share my sexual preferences with u and I dont really want u to share yours with me or my children for that matter. Its that "in your face attitude" that gets me..why the need for all the noise, parades, parties etc.,doesnt the saying "A word to to the wise will suffice" mean that we get it already..the Gays are here to stay...we capiche now leave us alone and get on with whatever else u do in your lives (outside of sex!!)

As an oleh my Hebrew is not great, but Kol ha'Kavod to Fania. I would be proud to call you my friend anytime.

I have read the talkbacks carefully. Some of them are very interesting and even touching (including those who thoughtfully and respectfully disagreed with me). I apologize for not being able to respond to each in detail. But I would like to remove one misunderstanding The organizers of the Jerusalem 'pride parade' in August do *not* plan to include any dancing, stripping or provocative show in the parade. It will be a plain march of fully-dressed people demonstrating and calling for recognition of their civil rights and human worth. They are aware of the unique Jerusalem environment and attempt to honour it. I am not part of this community, but support their humanity and equality, from both my liberal brain and my Jewish heart. The hate-talkbacks on this list are not worth responding to. But thanks to all those who wrote rationally, passionately, and well.

Great location near the Dead Sea.

Liberalism is the title under which men and women who refuse to be governed find refuge. Under this name gather those who refuse the rule of G-d in their lives and prefer the rule of self. Even though many of your thinking consider themselves to be "religious", it is not the G-d of Abraham that you follow. If you did then you would know that homosexuality is an abomination unto Him. But you wish to do as you please, as so many have done before you. You and your brother's and sister's do the will of your father, and he is not G-d. Do not think that trampling under foot that which is holy is going unnoticed. Scoff all you want and revell in your sin, it is only for a season. When you stand face to face with the creator and all your life is as an open book will you be able to justify yourself? Liberalism is a new title for the ancient plan of Satan.