To Zev, You can feel that Jerusalem is a tollerant city because you don't feel the presures to hide and the violence threatened towards Gay people in the city. You assume that we are coming to the city because you don't realize that we are here! If polls were made in Jerusalem, left wing demonstrations would also not be allowed to happen as well. See democracy is not about the tyrany of the majority, it is about the rights of all. If you bow down to terrorism it will come back at you. You know this on the national level as well. Threats of violence should drive every person in this city to say "even if I don't agreee with this march, I will fight for it to happen, because I don't want terrorism setting the agenda. It is your job to stop violence before it happens. If you oppose the march, be there for the march on Aug. 10th, say you don't agree with it and calm the anti-democracy demonstrations you wish to be part of

I have no idea where you get the idea that gay people have any more respect for the Pope than for the Chief Rabbis. Fancier dresses, but that's about it. I'm sorry if you and your friends don't want to see part of reality, but it isn't our job to protect your delicate sensibilities. Israel may be on the verge of a full scale war, Ha-Shem forbid. The people of Jerusalem may have to see much worse than two guys kissing. Anyhow, you don't hold protest marches in places where everyone already accepts you, you hold them where you want to reach people who see you as less than human. Would you have told Dr. King not to march in Selma because he would upset the Southern way of bigotted life, but to march in Cambridge instead? For that matter, would you have told Moshe Rabbenu not to bring the makkot on Mitsrayim, but just to have a nice picnic with the Hebrew slaves and return them to their masters?

I'm not anti-gay. I support equal rights for ALL and that includes marriage. The Pride Parade supporters could be more sensitive to the situation in Jerusalem and cancel the parade. There's enough tension in Jerusalem without the additional tension the parade would bring. If parade organizers and marchers don't understand the reason for this request and only view it through a 'rights for gays prism', then tolerance and understanding aren't your strong suits.

Gays - Please don't march in Jerusalem, because you're fanning the fires. After all, "We don't want to threaten you." Oh, and while we're at it: Blacks - Please don't ask to move to the front of the bus, because you're fanning the fires. After all, "We don't want to threaten you." Women - Please don't demand the vote, because you're fanning the fires. After all, "We don't want to threaten you." Jews - Please don't question the Ivy League quota system, because you're fanning the fires. After all, "We don't want to threaten you." Andy, no longer a Janglo subscriber.

Tel Aviv is the social and metropolitan heart of Israel- so the parade should have been there. To hold it in Jerusalem, the country's religious centre, which has a very high relative ratio of religious people, is probably a provocation. Certainly appears as such. It makes one question the self- respect of Israel's gay community.

Andy, you can quite subscription if you want to, but keep in mind that Zev Stub's piece was specifically published in the OPINIONS section.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/entertainment/5175524.stm

Looking Glass, No, we gays are not very "tolerant" of people who call for murdering us. Did you expect that we would be? Are Jews? Israelis? Are you nuts?

Is one of the most insulting things I have ever read. We don't hate you, but please stay away. And if you're already here, please go away. Could you imagine this being directed at any other community, and that the author would still claim that it is a respectful not hateful message? We'll see how well this tolerance you claim exists in Jerusalem holds out in the next several weeks. Things may degenerate well before any of us arrive or any of us who are already there (have always been there) make ourselves visible and vocal.

How can you be tolerant of us if you don't know who we are, because all the threats of violence and terrorism against our community are meant to keep us hidden. You're not really tolerant of us, you're just pretending we don't exist. And when we show that we do exist, as with the parade, then we see what your tolerance is really worth, because that is when you scream epithets at us, throw feces and other garbage at us, and make threats and attempts to shed our blood and kill us. That's not tolerance, that dellusion. Silence equals death. I intend to live forever.

It's blatant hypocrisy... pure and simple. OOPS.. maybe intellectual duplicity sounds better. The auther seems to be a tolerant homophobe.THAT's the oxymoron (with emphasis on MORON).

to those recommending tel aviv insted of jerusalem , the sme people would be screaming bloody murder. those that elements that wish jerusalem to be a provincial city and those who cave to them. We already have a situation where women must sit on the back of the bus in many instances. take note~! once jews were cosmopolitans , what has the whole struggle for a country of our own been for if we are to capitulate to the most provincial and intollerant elements among us. Jerusalem is the capital of Israel not funmdamentalistan.

You guys are going over and over about what a bigot Stub is, but his is the only article I've seen, pro- or anti- parade, that says "we accept you." Everyone else, including the website itself, talk about trying to get accepted. I would say this is the most non-hateful piece I've seen yet.

Saying it is not the same thing as meaning it.

The idea that the rational shall prevail; has given the world democracy and science. This world view has given the world new problems but has also delivered comforts that our forebears could not imagine. To me Democracy is about a balance between individual liberty and the need to curb individual liberty in order to sustain a society whereby the liberty of an individual does not infringe upon the liberty of another. So I try to see the issue from both sides. The religous who reject science and rational thought have a right to live and believe anyway they want. They have a right to not have what they considered Holy to not be desecrated. This must be tempered by the fact that the world is not a Theocracy and even within the same religous group there are differing viewpoints. For if it is the will of the majority that must be obeyed and the minority trampled to submission. Then the world view should be Catholic or Moslem. As they are the dominate religous faiths of the world. The only sensible thing is to limit the domain. You have more freedom in your own house to do what you will than you have on the street. The religous need to have boundaries. The Gays and Lesbians need to have boundaries. Public affections for straights or gays should not be displayed like an advertizement. There need to be common areas where all can express themselves in a way that does not inflame differences but builds on that which we share in common. Today Israel is at war. The enemy does not care if your are straight or gay or liberal or conservative. They seek only to destroy citizens of Israel. Citizens of Israel you have in common the love of your land and families. Public Displays of affection belong in the bedroom and public displays of religous sentiment belong in the houses of the religous. The public areas of the street demand mutual respect for all. If the Gay parade is to be a political march then it should be in a solemn and respectfull manner. It should not be in your face with public displays of semi nudeness and physical affection. That is not to say if you happen to be gay and your lover for whom you thought was going to die just returned and is well if you give them a kiss that society should condem you. I think all but the most fervent of the opposition would understand it and look away. In a parade there is no need for it. It is only a statement. A solemn political March that is respectful of others yields rationality. The rational mind says that 5-10% of the population has always been gay. That it is not unatural because there are many mammals that exibit the same behavior. That there seems to be a biological basis as well as a enviromental component. In a very simplistic way you can look at it the same way as Geese imprint. How does it harm me if someone is gay? The gay community is gaining acceptance and with that comes a responsibility. That is as the community becomes mainstream it is a caretaker of society at large. So tolerate those who feel differently and allow them their own space. Offer them peace and if that does not work then be prepared to make the peace by declairing war on those that have not lived in peace and destroy them completely or let them destroy you for at that point there is nothing left to live for if you do not win the peace.

Forcing Haridim to accept homosexuality is not better than Haridim forcing seculars to accept god.

Rights of mankind are given by The Creator of mankind. If you do not yet know Who that is, you need to study more with an open mind. We are all in this together. Like one body, if a finger is infected, the entire body is in danger, Those who protest sincerely the Gay way of life are demonstrating the greatest love of fellow man.

Get over your hectoring and pontification man. What a total ID10T. So, this is exactly why the middle east is in such disarray all the time. Lots of funny religious stuff and people can't accept other viewpoints. Me thinks that this is the reason for seperation of church and state. What do a person's religious views have to do with how the country is to be run and the rights of your gay and lezbo neightbors? Your back in the middle ages people. The reason I fully support the gay people is the same reason I fully support Israel! It is because I sure as hell don't want some government telling me what I can and can't do simply because I might be different from you. Nobody tells me what to do and how I should live my life and you shouldn't let them tell you what to do either. It's the American way buddy and that's why we rule the world. We won't let some jackass in a robe and funny hat dictate what I'm supposed to do with my life. It's MY life!! Obviously people in the middle east don't get this. Am I gay? No, it makes me want to puke but I still say they can do what they want to do. I'm not their judge and neither are you. Let the gays have they're day and their parrade. Celebrate with them, celebrate life in general. Don't be so ignorant, don't hold other people back or put them down for being different. They teach kids this in grade school man, get with the program and remember God's greatest commandment, "Love your neighbor as yourself". How about some peace, love and understanding? Geez. It's clear that your a total wimp and a wuss. Stand up for your neightbors dude, give thanks that they're alive and celerbrate your differences. It's what makes the world go round and what makes life so much fun. You need to do some drugs and expand your mind.

Daves got a point that you can't ignore moral foundations. The problem is that we've been burnt so badly by distortions and mayhem in the name of religion we don't know what the truth is anymore. Nevertheless, we can't be shallow and we need to search out what God wants of us to the best of our ability. Yes, we are better off without state sponsored religion, but we can't confuse freedom of religion with freedom from religion.

I was in Northampton, Massachusetts (acclaimed for having the highest Jewish Lesbian per capita population in the world) almost ten years ago when a few men tried to get permission to hold an Orthodox minyan in the local temple. The forward-looking congregation - which would have been delighted to allow Christian groups to use their facilities - fought bitterly against it. (Now there are Orthodox services there - when they can get a minyan.) I haven't been to Provincetown (a well-known resort favored by US homosexuals) for many years, so this is merely conjecture, but I don't think a group of Chabdniks encouraging people to put on tefilin and light Shabbat candles would be welcomed in a warm, tolerant embrace. If a group of Hareidim took it into their heads to parade through Provincetown, they'd quickly abandon the idea, because the briefest investigation would reveal it to be the least likely place to win converts and the most likely place to cause trouble. But Gays and Jerusalem... As far as I know there is no law in the Gay community against the practice of Orthodox Judaism, nevertheless, there is clear prejudice against it. Even to an atheist, Orthodoxy's intolerance of the World Pride parade is more logical and understandable, because of the Torah's injuctions.

Jesus died for everyone, but he also died because he was Gay. It is proven that Gays are Jesus's Special People.

Daniel, I did walk into the Open house to ask your question, and they had surprisingly little to tell me. The Shushan bar arson case a year ago is the only incident they could point to. That makes Jerusalem more tolerant of Gays than any other group around.