Interesting article. Two points: 1) The vast majority of immigrants to Israel came here because they had no alternative. Not for ideological reasons. 2) When I first moved to Israel I was surprised at how anti-religion many secualr Israelis are. When I saw how corrupt, hypocritic, narrow minded the orthodox establishment is, I began to understand. If we want to emphasize the Jewish side of our identity we have to clean things up. To change a famous quote: Religion is too important to be left to the religious.

Anyone who suggests that a secular "Jewish identity" can be rooted in history is a raving loon blatantly attempting to conceal and rewrite history. As young people become increasingly educated -- and learn history -- they come to learn that history intractably contradicts secular Zionists' pathetic attempts to introduce a "secular Zionist Jewish identity." They are finally beginning to recognize that a "secular Jew" is just a synonym for an assimilated goyim and that 90% of every generation of "secular Jews" have no connection to their parents' demonstrably false "Jewish identity." The parents were goyim who refused to admit it. The children are goyim who have grown up comfortable with it. Am Yisraeil is defined by the berit of Torah. Rabbis who have presumed to relax the Torah definition to include secular Jews and "Benei Noakh" are false shepherds who are distorting Halakhah, contributing to the rampaging assimilation by their acceptance of a "secular Jewish" identity and are misleading both Jews and goyim. Torah very clearly doesn't accept anyone outside of the berit without teshuvah to Torah-keeping. Notice that "secular Jews" never offer any historical support for their "historical and cultural" validity. That's because their assertion of "secular Jewish identity" is a fraud that contradicts history. Further, a cultural definition of "Jew" defines "Jews for J*esus" meshumadim as better "Jews" than 99% of "secular Jews." This contradiction, along with the blind insistence on clinging to the contradiction, is the primary cause that "Jews for J*esus" continues to attract followers because they are indisputably better cosmetic "Jews" -- "cultural Jews" -- than 99% of "secular Jews." Defined by the berit of Torah, however, both varieties of "cultural Jews" are goyim. The argument of having a "secular Jewish" society along with Torah-defined Jews IS the argument for legitimizing "Jews for J*esus." The contradiction of a mingling a "secular Jewish" society with Torah Jews in contradiction of the Torah principle of Havdalah, leads to endless ensuing contradictions. The two incompatibles cannot be mingled, "Secular Jews" deceive themselves with that impossible idea. "Secular Israel" satisfies Christians (and, of course, "secular Jews") but can never fool Torah Jews OR ARABS. THIS is the primary engine that is driving Arab Muslim jihadists, who can only assess "Israel" based on the representations that Israel -- currently secular-predominated Israel -- makes: a debauched hedonist society intolerably incompatible with the Holy Land. Without a valid historical claim to this land, "secular Jews" and "secular Israel" have no case for being here. The Arabs are indisputably right in their assessment and only teshuvah by Israel can remedy that. This cancer can never be solved by any military victory. Paqid Yirmeyahu Israeli Orthodox Jew Advancing Logic as Halakhic Authority Welcoming non-Jews www.netzarim.co.il

Christians eagerly fool themselves because it corroborates their contra-Biblical apocalyptic fables in their NT. Hence, the West, so far, blindly continues to support "secular Israel." While hedonist secular Christians are pre-inclined to accept a hedonist secular definition of "Jews," however, their ignorance won't last forever. Increasingly, they, too, are learning the Bible instead of their Hellenist Roman NT. These truths are "out of the bottle," forever in the public domain and playing an inexorably increasing role in public knowledge and religious awareness. Barukh ha-Sheim, no one can ever put them back in the bottle again. More importantly, no intelligent and reasonable person can be surprised that the fraud of "secular Jewish identity" and "secular Israel" doesn't fool Torah Jews -- or Arabs. In contrast to Israel, the "secular Jewish identity" is a historically invalid and illegitimate fraud, exposed by ever increasing historical knowledge and communications, and irremediably in its death throes. Anti-Israel Ultra-Orthodox, however, are simple-minded apostates mired in medieval superstition and tunnel-visioned ritual who, while they recognize the falseness of a "secular Jewish identity," have failed to recognize the greater Torah principle that Israel is the creation of ha-Sheim in a fiery refining crucible, fulfilling Biblical prophecy. Jews who reject Ultra-Orthodoxy, however, are correct. Israel can only be refined by the restoration of logical and scientifically valid Halakhah -- Orthodox; not Ultra-Orthodox medieval superstition and tunnel-visioned ritual fanatically focused on minutiae to the neglect of greater Torah principles. The only historical claim -- or definition -- that Israel has is Torah and, therefore, the only Israel that has any historical claim to the Holy Land is the Israel defined by the berit of Torah -- which explicitly excludes "secular Jews." Ridding Biblical Israel of "secular Jews" is a Torah-commanded prerequisite to Israel's claim to recover the Holy Land. That cannot be accomplished by estranging even more Jews from Torah but, rather, by restoring Torah and Halakhah to their rightful place as the logical and scientifically credible Guide to life that reflects the Omniscient and Holy Singularity, that attracts, rather than continuing to repel, intelligent and educated young Jews and becomes the Beacon fulfilling prophecy in illuminating the goyim. Paqid Yirmeyahu Israeli Orthodox Jew Advancing Logic as Halakhic Authority Welcoming non-Jews www.netzarim.co.il

If you're making Aliyah already despising your brothers in your heart, better you stay home.

The modern state of Israel was established as a direct reaction to the trauma suffered by Jews in Europe during WWII. For obvious reasons, after its foundation the state of Israel turned its back on Europe despite cultural links that go back many centuries. Israel properly belongs in the European family. It's high time this penny dropped: Israelis can be fully European without compromising their Jewsish identity in any way.

There is no claim to Israel without the Torah. There would be no modern-day Israel without secular Jews whose courage has allowed Jewish orthodoxy to flourish in Israel.. Be a positive example not an instigator of division

If zionism was a response to WW2 & persecutions then the Jewish state would have arisen in Uganda. But we did not wait 2000 years just to go to Uganda! That is the point!

...but surely there can be Protestant Jews, Catholic Jews, Buddhist Jews, Jewish Jews and atheistic Jews living peacefully (and, indeed, harmoniously) side by side in a modern, progressive Israel?

My friend. With all due respect, you need to educate yourself a little. No, there cannot be Protestant Jews nor Catholic Jews, this is an oxymoron. Judaism is a religion, a system of faith whose main tenants directly contradict Catholicism, Protestantism and the like. Have you ever seen a square circle? It just doesn't make sense. Jews can live peacefully with others in the Holy Land, but that's not the point. You can go to sites such as Aish.com or Chabad.org and ask some questions. They'll be more than happy to answer.

You will be well aware, I'm sure, that Theodor Herzl and the early Zionists did indeed consider Uganda (along with Cyprus and several other disparate places) as possible locations for a Jewish homeland.

Places other than Israel were considered for the Jewish state. It was concluded that Israel would motivate and unite Jews to gather together in one place.

you'll never get there!

What's your definition of a "debauched hedonist"? I am a lapsed Roman Catholic agnostic living in a country where freedom of religious expression (or non expression) is guaranteed under the Constitution. I work hard but at the weekends enjoy going out for a few pints of beer and getting a bit drunk: in your book am I a "debauched hedonist"?

I thought the word "Jew" referred more to ethnicity than to any system of religious belief. And I sure as hell have met a lot of atheistic Jews: do you consider that to be an oxymoron as well?

It seems even Israelis can't agree on why Israel was founded or what it should be. That's healthy. But it's wrong for any nation to be explicitly based on one religion or religious identity or ethnic identity. It leads to exclusion and limits on freedoms and dehumanization of minorities. Acting like your country was divinely set aside for G-d's chosen followers is even worse. I also believe it was wrong to establish a Jewish state on land that was already inhabited by people with a different religion and identity. Aside from the obvious ethical implications, this was bound to create lots of conflict. Passion for your ancestral home of 2000 years ago is a great reason to settle there and love the land and start communities there. But it's not just cause to start your own country over the objections of the current inhabitants. However, that's 20th century history and we can't undo it. I firmly believe Israeli has the right to exist now since it's an established nation -- provided it not turn it into a ethnicity-based or religion-based state. Let it be secular. Let Palestinians return if they want to.

Israel was established as a refuge for the Jewish people. Period. It is not a manifestation of god. The modern state of Israel was established as a direct reaction to the trauma suffered by Jews in Europe during WWII. This is the whole point of the article. The pres. of Iran and so many other countries as well as Americans believe it is not the Palestinians fault for what happened in WWII but so many are scared to say it. If you are only using the Holocaust as a reason to Israel, what will you answer the world when they say take a piece of Germany or Europe for your rights don't hurt the Arabs who were their before. As a religious Jew there is only one answer. Before Seculars ever walked in to Isreal in the late 1800's the religious already were set up there since the 1400's with their houses and schools. It was G-ds given land to us as he promised any other reason like holocausts and the such will sympathise the world for a little bit but once the holocaust is more and more forgotten about so is the seculars right to Israel.

does it makes sense to say an atheistic Moslem or Christian. NO But what you can say is an atheistic egyptian, palestinian american or Israeli. Jews,Moslem and Christians are religions. JUDAISM started 40 yrs before inheriting their country. The Jewish nation started with every single one believing in G-ds oneness after his revelation on Mt. Sinai.

Meni - Hillel Halkin tried to make that point - a refuge is a good enough reason. But it isn't. We were persecuted - so why not just disappear into the woodwork like so many American Jews do? But we can't - those who persecute us find us, whether in a large group in Israel or mixed into 1930's Germany. The fact that we even care enough to create the refuge is itself a religious idea, that of arevut, responsibility for our fellow Jews. Our worth, the reason it matters whether we exist as a people, lies in the fact that we brought the concept of ethical monotheism into the world. Religion and fascism are not synonymous - they're mutually antagonistic, and when one begins to look like the other it's because it's shading over into idolatry. Israel needs its Jewish identity because it's the only thing that makes the Jewish survival on which the state is predicated worth the effort. the Judaism itself can be whatever stream you care to practice, as long as it subscribes to the central idea that God chose us to establish a just world, even if we seem to be the only just ones in it.

A few things: 1) You use the Torah to claim that Secular Jews do not exist. An utterly meaningless claim since the people whom you are referring to do not accept the Torah as anything more than a historical record. 2) I disagree with your claim that Jewish identity cannot be rooted in history or culture. Historically, it was MY parents, MY grandparents, MY great gradparents, etc. who have been persecuted, massacred, gassed, raped and villified. This is MY history, just as the Torah stories are. As for denying a cultural connection to Judaism - that is simply ridiculous. The fact that I go to shul, celebrate the festivals and have Shabbat every Friday night is a CULTURAL LINK to Judaism, and to my history! 3) The historical claim to the land of Israel is NOT that of a religion! The historical claim to the land of Israel is that of an ethnic group, and is therefore not bound by Torah observance. The Torah is, of course, still a necessary part of the claim to then land - not as a religious document, but as a historical record of our ancestry. 4) One last, and slightly off-topic thing. I would like to see the state of Israel continue to function for just ONE WEEK without any secular Jews.

This isn't the first time I've heard the argument that Israel is failing because the original founders had a knowledge of Jewish ritual (despite their rejection of it) which the current generation is lacking. This knowledge of Judaism informed and shaped the founding generations decisions but because it was a cultural inheritance rather than a religious one. The founding generation largely began as religious and later rejected the religious (i.e. observance) aspects of Judaism but most of them still knew Jewish ritual inside out, respected it and hadn't rejected the overarching Jewish values. In contrast, the current generation begin as secular and come from secular families so it makes the religious world (particularly as it is manifested in Israel) that bit more inpenetrable. Part of the problem in Israel is the orthodox monopoly. I remember at school in London that many of my Israeli friends were particularly hostile to jewish studies. I believe this was because the education was provided by orthodox rabbis. These rabbis had the agenda of teaching Judaism in order to make people more observant and this threatened the existing identity of the secular kids. Added to this orthodox rabbis necessarily don't understand the secular perspective, i.e. that you can be jewish and have a purely acaemic interest in Judaism. The irony is that those who know most about Judaism are those least able to communicate with secular people. I know a friend of mine here who wants to learn more about Judaism but is frightened to ask a Rabbi because she fears that she would be pressured into becoming more observant. We need a Judaism classes in Israel for secular Jews where there is no pressure to become mroe observant (although this might be a natural consequence of such classes). Are there any rabbi/knowledgeable lay leaders up to the job?

Confusion arises because the word "Jew" is used interchangeably to describe an adherent to the relgion of Judaism and those who belong to a specific ethnic group. The latter may have no religious belief whatsoever. So, contrary to what Lee says, it is not an oxymoron to speak of a Protestant or Catholic Jew. Indeed, the very first Christians were all Jews.

BS"D The article is right on the mark. For years many have agreed with A.B. Yehoshua's premise in many different ways. They key was that secular Judaism did not allow for religious Jewish pluralism. There must be both. And non-Jews in the Land cannot be excluded from the benefits of the State. Pluralism must be across the board or not at all.