first of all I should remind you that the difference between us (Muslims) and you that we believe in your prophets and we are asked many times in the Qur'an to respect what had been given to Moses and Jesus and all prophets before and to believe in them.. this is why we don't find Muslims drawing stupid cartoons on Jesus and Moses or insulting them... what angers Muslims is that we find ourselves loving your Prophets and believing in them while you run around insulting Prophet Mohammad (PBUH) all the time.. if you don't believe in him then fine don't but at least respect the fact that over one and a half billion Muslims believe in him and love him dearly.. Muslims are very attached to their religion.. as long as we are unable to respect each other we will not be able to solve our conflicts.. we will end up destroying one another.. as for freedom.. I don't see what freedom you are running around with .. your freedom stops when the freedom of others begins.. freedom does not mean throwing away morals, religion and respect to others.. wishing for a freedom with no limits is like wishing for a life under the laws of the jungle.. (not a pretty picture).. Islam has no problem whatsoever with women's rights.. Islam was the first religion to give women their share in inheritance .. Islam had forbidden the practice of female infanticide that was carried out by Arabs before Islam.. Islam had forbidden marrying a woman by force and had given her the right to choose her husband and gave her a part in the marriage contract.. Islam had made no restrictions on women in participating in all fields whether economic, social or political.. as for homosexual rights then homosexuality is forbidden in Islam because it is ruins a society.. but nevertheless, those who have physiological problem have the right to recieve medical treatment..

Your Barney theology is a discussion for another day -- it has nothing to do with Islam's long-established problem with violence. I believe it is still such a problem because it is inherent in Muhammad's teaching. (Yes, I've read the Qur'an.) Claiming to be an opressed group is historically naive and frankly ludicrous. If tolerance is your shtick, your people desperately need that message, not gentlemen like the philosopher featured in the article.

ask yourself as ajew who did the shoua christain who did the inquistioon the spanish cathloisim who did the pogroms agaainst the palestinan and lebanese the jew- christo aiance add the victims trhough out and if you know logic add alll the numbers of a those who were victim of (islamic violence) if there is any the difference is exponential that moslems were far less violent than any other faith instead they sti give the benefit of counting and using thier patent numbers as for the frakfoni teach i think he is lying and ooooking for fame remember there are zilion of mosems who trash islam like rushdie and such just to se books

You said that women's groups and homosexual groups also get self-righteously indignant when they are offended. This may be true......BUT you don't see them running around issuing death threats, do you??? Therein lies the difference (one you apparently are unwilling to see.)

Islam? Women's rights?? GIVE ME A BREAK!!!!! So what if it was the first religion to give women an inheritance. Compare that to women in some Arab countries not being allowed out of the house without a man, not being afforded a proper education, and the list goes on and on and on.

my discussion was is a reply to Chaya's remarks #9.. it's surprising how have you managed to read the Qur'an and you still come up telling me that Islam has a problem with violence.. in one way yes, Islam does have a problem with violence .. it forbids violence.. Let's see what the Torah says about violence.. "in the cities of the nations the Lord your God is giving you as an inheritance, do not leave alive anything that breathe. Completely destroy them- the Hittites, Amorites, Canaanites, Perizzites, Hivites and Jebusites- as the Lord your God has commanded you" (Deuteronomy 20:16-17) "When the Lord your God brings you into the land you are entering to possess and drives out before you many nations.. then you must destroy them totally. Make no treaty with them, and show them no mercy" (Deuteronomy 7:1-2) "At that time we took all his towns and completely destroyed them- men, women and children. We left no survivors" (Deuteronomy 2:34) as for Islam ..those are the only three conditions the Qura'n staes for fighting.. 1- fighting for self-defense 022.039 "To those against whom war is made, permission is given (to fight), because they are wronged;- and verily, Allah is most powerful for their aid;- " 022.040 "(They are) those who have been expelled from their homes in defiance of right,- (for no cause) except that they say, "our Lord is Allah"." 2- defending people who cannot defend themselves from opression and tyranny 004.075 "And why should ye not fight in the cause of Allah and of those who, being weak, are ill-treated (and oppressed)?- Men, women, and children, whose cry is: "Our Lord! Rescue us from this town, whose people are oppressors; and raise for us from thee one who will protect; and raise for us from thee one who will help!" " 3- safeguarding religious freedom by protecting houses of worship, regardless of the faith of the worshippers.. 022:040 "Did not Allah check one set of people by means of another, there would surely have been pulled down monasteries, churches, synagogues, and mosques, in which the name of Allah is commemorated in abundant measure. Allah will certainly aid those who aid his (cause);- for verily Allah is full of Strength, Exalted in Might, (able to enforce His Will). " Prophet Mohammad was the first to establish war ethics.. "Do not be treacherous. Do not mutilate. Do not kill children, the aged or women. Do not cut palm trees or fruitful trees. Do not not slay a sheep, a cow, or a camel except for your food. And you will come across people who confined themselves to worship in monasteries; leave them alone to what they devoted themselves for." (Al- Tabari, volume3, p.213) In Islam God is given the name "peace".. 059.023 " Allah is He, than Whom there is no other god;- the Sovereign, the Holy One, the Source of Peace (and Perfection), the Guardian of Faith..." and His path is described the path of peace.. "005.016 Wherewith Allah guideth all who seek His good pleasure to ways of peace and safety, and leadeth them out of darkness, by His will, unto the light,- guideth them to a path that is straight. " while in the Torah God is represented as a warrior.. "The Lord is a warrior"(Exodus 15:3) history had proven Muslims to be on the highest level of nobility in their treatment of the defeated when they have managed to establish a great empire.. Spain upto this now boasts with the beauty Muslims have brought to it.. no, I do not regard the Muslim history as a historty of opression quite the contrary.. Muslim history is glorious.. and this is what gives us our pride.. I argue that now we are suffering from opression ... but we are not paying alone for this opression.. the whole world is paying for it.. and this is what happens all the time.. opression leads to terrorism while respect leads to peace..

In the Western WORLD we are free to say whatever the hell we want. If muslims who live in our lands cannot accept this...then they need to go back to where they come from...and you can join them!

"What makes you think that offending religious sensibilities is any different?" Where the hell have you been? Muslims constantly offend other religions and yet noone reacts as violently as they do. HYPOCRITE!

First, I am a modern Orthodox Jew not a Moslem. No, we are not free in the West to say whatever we want. We have punishment for hate speech and Jews don't hesitate to make use of these laws. It shouldn't be offensive to Jews trhat other groups would want to protect themselves too.

But criticism of islam is not hate speech.

And when you speak of the respect that Islam has for others, I'm sure not feeling it when I hear myself called an infidel.

the full text of Robert Redeker's article, along with an additional OUTSTANDING article about the true face of Islam, by Prof. Egon Flaig, who also attracted loads of criticism: http://michellemalkin.com/archives/006015.htm and Lynne, the only people Israel is allowed to finish off is the one who kills the defenseless, women, children, old people. You know who it is that does it nowadays.

I assure you that in Islam you are not an infidel ig you believe in the creator.. Jews and Christians are people of the book.. the Qur'an does not even hint that people of the book are infidels.. who calls you this is an ignorant idiot..

Lynne, you sound like a decent enough person, and I hold no ill feelings towards you, but perhaps the things you are explaining to us all about Islam should be said to other Muslims. Many of them don't agree with you. They treat women like property, they call people of other faiths "infidels," they scream "death" to anyone who disagrees with them. There are good and bad people in every race and religion, but there seem to be more violence-prone ones in Islam than in any other religion. Why? And please don't blame Israel and America. NOTHING excuses or explains away Muslims who crash airplanes into buildings, who take school children hostage, who blow up buses and subways.

thank you Little Miss Muffet.. hehe.. but believe me most Muslims are against any sort of violence.. the majority of us hate those people and more than you do because they are smearing the name of our religion.. as someone living in a Muslim society I have never encountred anyone who holds such beliefs that Christians and Jews are infidels and that they should be killed..and all that crap.. I watch this on TV. just as you do.. I read the Qura'n and pray everyday and I believe the Qur'an makes me live in peace with myself and with others of all colours and religions.. those who attack innocent people under the cover of religion are the losers who have no other way to get their message through.. they choose from the Qur'an what suits their sick mentalities.. they do not wish to understand that the Qur'an had allowed fighting yes, because it is realistic but it had put strict conditions to this this fighting because it is moral.. just like any other religion.. fighting is only to take place under certain conditions.. and certainly not in this low manner.. committing suicide is forbidden in Islam and killing innocent people is forbidden too ..so what can I say about doing both at the same time??.. the freaks who have carried out the 9/11 attacks were the day before drinking in a bar.. and drinking is forbidden in Islam so if they break this law they don't mind breaking other laws... my point is that if someone is looking for violence he will see that his religion supports him and when someone is looking for peace he will see that the same religion supports him.. every person is able to justify what he does under any slogan he runs around with... even Christians were able to justify their Crusades using parts of the Old Testament knowing that Jesus was regarded as a pacifist.. those people do not represent their religion they represent themselves and their sick ideas.. you see that Muslims are more violence-prone because the media is directing all its spots on those violent Muslims.. because Christians and Jews are seen individually like when the US invaded Iraq we did not see it as Christians killing Muslims .. we saw it as the Bush government is killing Iraqis.. when Israel massaccres Palestinians we don't say Jews are killing Muslims.. but unfortuately Muslims are seen in groups.. like when Al-Qaeda attacks in the media they try to focus on the relation between Al-Qaeda and Islam.. as for treating women like property then this is in all religions and not only in Islam.. doesn't using women in advertisemnts and bars to gain more profits is treating them like property?? again associating Islam with every mistake done by a Muslim does not mean that there is a problem with Islam itself..

I don't think Israel "massacres" anyone, it is Arab propaganda. But what do we say when a Palestinian suicide bomber blows himself up amidst tens of innocent vicilians? And then his (sometimes her) videotaped message is shown on al-jazeera claiming that they did it in the name of allah, quoting from the quran and such? what do we say then, lynne? By the way, using women in advertising has nothing to do with treating women like property. Nobody forces those models to pose for those ads, and besides they get paid a lot of money. Religious groups often protest such ads, they often do in Israel. Perhaps there are no problems with islam itself, the way I see it, the problems we have stem from islamofascism and islamoterrorism. The Crusades and other religious wars that plagued Europe stopped hundreds of years ago. It is high time muslims stopped their jihad against the free world and get a life - find a job, marry, have kids, you know, like ordinary people. No need to jump and cry foul whenever someone draws a cartoon or quotes some 700year old text. Or writes an article. I have not seen ONE peaceful islamic demo or rally. They always shout death to this and that, burn flags and effigies, threaten the world with jihad, send everybody to hell, etc. No wonder people seem to develop some kind of dislike towards this religion. It is this religion that has to reform, not our understanding of it.

You sound like a good and sincere person, but I disagree with much of what you said. The objectification of women in advertisements has nothing to do with Judaism or Christianity. It's a cultural thing. However, in Islam, the subjugation of women IS based on the way the religious texts have been interpreted. Muslims DID say it was Christians attacking Muslims when Iraq was attacked by the U.S.. Mullahs said it was "Christian Crusaders." Most people in the U.S. are nominally Christian (at best), and the actions in Iraq had nothing to do with spreading Christianity. I've opened up the newspaper and seen pictures of mosques with banners hanging inside saying DEATH TO JEWS and DEATH TO AMERICA AND ISRAEL. You don't see banners like that in churches and synagogues, and people would walk out if they saw such a thing. Yes, there are extremists in every religion. It just seems that there are a lot more of them in Islam. I think your words would be more credible if we were to see massive Muslim protests every time a Muslim killed people in the name of Islam. You know those big protests staged by Muslims in England and elsewhere when Israel attacked Lebanon? How about having a big protest like that next time a Muslim (and it WILL happen again) blows up a bus, airplane, skyscraper, etc. Regarding the Crusades, it was hundreds and hundreds of years ago. Christians have repeatedly renounced what the Crusaders did. Thank you for taking the time to explain your side of the story and for listening to my side as well.

first of all I should tell you that I'm glad we are able to discuss our misunderstandings in this way.. I wish more people from different races and religions could try to have a decent dialogue.. I am well aware that what we disagree on is a lot more than what we agree on but I also realise that this is due to what we hear and see in media and what we were brought up to believe about one another.. I think we should keep on revealing our beliefs to each other until we could find a common ground were we could as individuals live in peace together and try to stop the madness of some of us from destroying us all.. as for using women in advertisements and such acts.. you have said this is "a cultural thing".. I know it is cultural.. and those who mistreat Muslim women are also doing it out of cultural beliefs.. in any Arab or Muslim country you would find that such mistreatments take place in the least educated and poorer communities who are under so much economic pressures that they are unable to get an education, a job, or any sort of decent life.. most of the time their families consist of over 6 children.. and this this is why you would find them not just beating their wives and daughters.. they would beat themselves up.!!.if you don't mind please tell me what specific things you regard as a mistreatment for women in Islam and it will be my pleasure to answer you.. as for the war on Iraq Muslims have repeated what President Bush had said on the eve of the war that it was a Christian Crusade at Islamic terrorism!! I don't know what mosques are those that have banners of death to Jews and death to America and Israel.. can you please give me more precise details on where those mosques are??,, you feel that at this time there are more extremists in Islam because now we are living in a war on Islam.. because occupations and wars are all taking place in Muslim countries it is natural that those who react to this will certainly be Muslims.. I should ask you did we see Christians and Jews protesting when Muslims were massaccered in Chechnya, Kosovo, Bosnia, Afghanistan and elsewhere in Muslim countries?? I hope there would be no next time when such attacks on buses,airplanes, etc.. would take place... because no one benifits from violence.. but how can you ask Muslims to protest when such attacks take place? when we see Palestinians suffering and the US supporting this .. when we see the Iraqis who were (before the war) under siege suffering and children dying out of poverty.. we neither support the US nor do we support those terrorists.. and this is why we are facing problems with both sides.. an eye for an eye only leads to more blindness.. things keep on going round and round in circles.. the West do this we do that.. the West say this we say that... it's crazy.. believe me if we all go back to our religions and do what they ask us.. none of us would be able to kill or destroy.. every religion is a grace to its people.. no matter what it is.. if God had wanted one of us killed He is the most able to do it... but God is merciful on us we are the evil ones.. have a nice day Miss Muffet.. ( away from spiders I hope).. :)

Hello Israeli.. claiming that Israel does not massaccre anyone is denying facts... I am aware that we are unable to agree on religion, culture or even history but let us just agree on the facts of what's going on today.. 121 Israeli children have been killed by Palestinians and 786 Palestinian children have been killed by Israelis since September 29, 2000 1,084 Israelis and 4,171 Palestinians have been killed since September 29, 2000. 7,633 Israelis and 30,670 Palestinians have been injured since September 29, 2000. 1 Israeli is being held prisoner by Palestinians, while 9,599 Palestinians are currently imprisoned by Israel. on one hand I do not support suicide attacks on civilians.. but on the other hand I can't see how else the Palestinians could defend themselves.. they have no Palestinian army to defend them.. and they have to face one of the world's strongest armies.. I think that if you would come to a peaceful agreement all this will stop.. but both sides should be committed to this peace... it should be a balanced peace agreement that gives every side their rights.. you Israelis should be specific on what you want.. would you accept a give and take peace agreement?? please tell me what is the peace you believe in? (if you believe in peace, which I hope you do).. yes, the problem is not in Islam as a religion.. and I do not accept the words terrorism and fascism being associated with Islam.. I don't think fascists were Muslims, do you?? if Muslims are left alone they would be more than happy to live ordinary lives.. it's not like Muslims are occupying Western lands.. it's vice versa.. and in order to lead ordinary lives Muslims should feel safe in their countries and enjoy political stability in order to achieve economic stability.. it is not you who decides that Muslims don't need to jump and get angry when their religion is insulted.. insulting the religion of one and a half billion Muslims is another way of insulting them and showing them a lack of respect.. the question is why should they insult Islam like this.. there is a BIG difference between insulting Islam and criticising Muslims... no, believe me if you could understand Islam things wouldn't get so bad... Islam does not call for the death of anyone.. Muslims are not asking you to love their religion like they do but just respect it.. if we can all learn to respect each others religions and beliefs we can all share this world without having to fight and kill each other...

If everybody is entitled to criticize Israel and Jews, Israel and Jews at large are allowed to reciprocate. Clerics in Gaza repeatedly call for the destruction of Israel and equate Jews with apes and pigs. They even fill their young children's heads with this kind of hatred and racism, so yes, I am well within my rights to call on muslims to just chill. Palestinians are armed to the teeth, my dear, they may not have an army, but they have a lot worse - they have terrorist groups - hamas, PLO, Tanzim, Al-Aksa this, martyrs of that, etc. They smuggle explosive into Gaza via tunnels (up to 2 tons a month) with the only purpose to attack soldiers, yes, but also to carry out suicide bombings against civilians. So you stop denying facts. I can assure you that the minute Palestinians agree to recognize Israel and renounce terrorist activities negotiations can begin. Meantime, Hamas and PLO are killing one another in Gaza, where Al-Qaeda also set fire to a cafe. Offers made in the past were rejected, such as Barak's offer. Agreements reached in the past collapsed, such as the Oslo agreements. You can blame Israel, if you wish. How do you explain then that the peace treaties with Egypt and Jordan endure? Many of the prisoners are associated with terrorist or criminal activities - they'd be in prison anywhere.

I did not refer to what Israelis call Arabs and what Arabs call Israelis.. what you might call each other is due to what the conflict we're living in had caused from hatered and disrespect from both sides.. I do not like hearing this from either side.. as an Arab I hate hearing an Arab call an Israeli names because again I insist that we should start solving this problem by respecting one another.. what I am referring to is desacering Prophets an religion via cartoons, remarks, or any other way.. regarding Palestinians.. yes, I think we agree on this.. they do not have the the F16s , bulldozers and such heavy equipment.. this is why they depend on small groups of equipped organisations to stand up for the Israeli army.. and this is why they fight using different tactics from those that a national army would use.. I did not deny the fact that they carry out suicide bombings against civilians!! but Israel attacks civilians too.. and it does it all the time.. my point is that you should take things from both sides and not only from your side.. you want Palestinians to renounce terrorist activities and the Palestinians want Israel to renounce terrorist activities.. years of repeating the same thing on and on again have gotten you both nowhere.. it just makes this conflict go round in circles with no real solution.. they provoke you strike.. they strike back.. then you provoke they strike.. and on and on it goes.. if they recognise Israel will you accept to retreat to the '67 borders and establish two independent states?? can you live as neighbours or do you think that it's either you or them ?? please answer me on this.. I really wish to understand what exactly do you want.. does Israel wish to expand?? I do not wish to offend you but I think that if we as individuals are able to find a peaceful solution our governments will.. as for peace treaties with Jordan and Egypt then that's different.. Israel had agreed to give Egypt and Jordan their land back .. this is why it worked.. I don't think that if Israel announces its readiness retreat to the '67 borders Palestinians will not accept peace.. I should remind you that there are women and innocent children in Israeli prisons.. are those also criminals?? if Palestinians are to imprison every Israeli who had committed crimes against them you'd find many leaders and IDF soldiers in Palestinian prisons!!

Lynne, you wish for people to see both sides, yet your portrayal of the political situation - leaving out key facts from the history of the region - would indicate that you don't recognize the Israeli side. I'll ignore the inherent one-sidedness of ignoring intent and equating accidental civilians deaths caused by the IDF (after, in most cases, dropping leaflets asking people to evacuate the area) to the DELIBERATE TARGETING of Israeli civilians by Palestinian terrorists and will merely address your points regarding whether Israel is interested in living as neighbors. "I don't think that if Israel announces its readiness retreat to the '67 borders Palestinians will not accept peace," you said. History, unfortunately, proves you wrong. 1. Barak agreed to 97 % of the Palestinians' demands for land and offered to compensate them with unasked for land to make up for that last 3%. This is unprecedented generosity, as far as land-for-peace deals go. (Note: when one country attacks and loses, the land it relinquishes belongs to the victor, based on almost the entirety of historical cases). No, it's not 100 %, however, as you know, negotiation requires COMPROMISE, give and take. In this scenario, the strong side offered a huge concession, which was unequivocally rejected. All give from Israel, NOTHING from the other side. 2. Hamas clearly stated on more than one occasion that 1967 borders are a starting point and that the eventual goal is the liberation of all of Palestine (aka including all areas where Israel would be under a two-state solution). Hamas is the elected government in the territories. How exactly is this an acceptance of peace based on the two-state solution? 3. Giving up land will bring peace, you say? What was Disengagement, if not that? You may think it was implemented badly, that it caused more poverty, etc. but it is undeniably a revocation of land. What was the response? The election of a group who promotes violent 'resistance' and barrages of Qassam rockets from the relinquished territories. Frankly, Lynne, that's not so neighborly. (And, for all those who mention that the IDF is in Gaza, recall that it entered Gaza only after almost a year of rocket attacks. Yes, it controls some of the crossings, but those are crossings into its sovereign territory. This is called a border control and exists in all countries. Rafah crossing, on the Egyptian border, is monitored by Egyptians, not Israelis, for example.) 4. Additionally, the government spoke of more retreats from the West Bank. What is that if not readiness to concede land for peace? And this was done even though NO trust-building, reciprocal steps were taken by the Palestinians post-Gaza pullout. In other words, currently, Israel is expected to take all possible steps for peace and then hope that the other side will respond nicely. Sorry, not so realistic from a survival perspective. EGYPT AND JORDAN: Jordan and Egypt COMMITTED to peace, prior to receiving anything. That was the starting point (unlike what you're asking for vis-à-vis the Palestinians). Regarding land: In the peace treaty with Jordan, no land was given back. In the peace treaty with Egypt, not only was Sinai returned, but Begin was interested in giving Gaza back to the Egyptians and this was rejected by Sadat. Why is no Palestinian ire directed at Jordanian or Egyptian leaders which, based on your (erroneous) claim that everything is about land and a two-state solution, seem to have made the situation worse by not trying to reclaim the territories from 67 and then ceding them to the Palestinians? Also, if everything is truly about 1967 borders, why was the PLO founded and calling for reclamation of 'Palestine' and annihilation of Israel as an entity in 1964, THREE YEARS prior to the war during which the territories were captured? Ignoring these salient points as you do is tantamount to ignoring the Israeli side.

so many points to debate with a 4000 character limit, but i will try my best: - as far as I remember, no territorial concessions were involved in the Israel-Jordan peace treaty. I just checked out the treaty, and it seems that the border was established along the Jordan River: http://www.kinghussein.gov.jo/peacetreaty.html. Egypt, on the other hand, got the Sinai Peninsula back. As far as the Palestinians are concerned, there are no Jews in Gaza, no settlements, the army also pulled out. They go in sometimes chasing terrorists. Last year also saw the dismantling of some illegal West Bank settlements. The palestinians should have seized the chance, but they stepped up terror instead, hoping the push us even farther. I suppose the issue of the borders (should the Palestinians ever recognize our right to exist as a state) will be determined by negotiations. Wouldn't it be nice if you and i could agree here and now and put an end to the hostiliies? But expand, expand where? Don't listen to our detractors. About the prisoners, well, there are some women who were caught on the way to committing suicide attacks, or were involved in drugs, theft, etc. I really am not familiar with each and every case, but they have lawyers and visitation rights, rehabilitation programs. What I know is that Israelis abusing Palestinians are also imprisoned - an Israeli was jailed recently for killing Palestinians, yet Palestinian terrorists are rewarded for killing Israelis. Even soldiers are often times under inquiry and even go to prison for abusing innocent Palestinians. I personally believe in peace, and so do very many Israelis, but not under terror. It is the Palestinians who have to recognize us. We gave Arafat a chance, we spoke to Abu-Mazen, Dahlan, whoever the Palestinians delegated to talk to us. But they rewarded us with terror. The difference is that the terrorists seek to hurt women and children and old people, while the army goes after armed "militants" as they call themselves, and who hide among Palestinian civilians. IDF does not target civilians, as civilians pose no threat, they go after rocket launchers, explosives, gunmen... On the other hand, did you know that many Palestinians get medical treatment in Israeli hospitals? No, not those shot by the IDF, sick people who cannot receive proper care in Gaza or Ramallah or Nablus. Well, I guess it more or less answers your questions.

The mistreatment of women in Arab countries is well documented and so I don't see the point in going into it here. If you want an example, look at the honor killings. As for the mosques that hang banners saying DEATH to Jews, America, Israel, I do not remember where specifically these mosques were. Perhaps in the Palestinian territory. It was in an Arab location, though. I saw the pictures in either the San Francisco Chronicle or the San Mose Mercury News. I've also read news accounts of Jews and Christians being called monkeys and pigs by mullahs. As to inaction when Muslims were massacred in Kosovo, Bosnia, etc.....actually, the United States was instrumental in getting military intervention going in the former Yugoslavia to put an end to those slaughters! Maybe it took Clinton too long to act, but America did step in, as did Europe. I was all in favor of my tax dollars going to support that effort. Americans of all religious stripes have protested against the Iraq and Afghanistan wars. I also feel that these wars, particularly the one in Afghanistan, a country that harbored those who attacked us, cannot be compared to terrorist activities such as taking school children hostage and crashing airplanes into skyscrapers. When Bush used the word "crusade," he did not say it with the word "Christian" attached. Furthermore, in the U.S., the word "crusade" does not mean anything akin to what the Crusaders of history did. "Crusade" has come to mean any sort of task that one dedicates one's self to achieving. For instance, I have been on a crusade to get my local grocery story to resume carrying some products they have discontinued carrying. This is the sense in which Bush used the word. It was later pointed out to him that it was a poor choice of words and he didn't use it anymore. "Crusade" as used by him had nothing to do with spreading Christianity. I think in Muslim countries, this nuance is lost because Muslims justifiably remember with pain what the Crusaders did. Bush has also bent over backwards to reach out to Muslims in the U.S. and to distinguish beween good Muslims and terrorists. In fact, he has taken some heat from some people who have criticized him for going easy on Muslims in the U.S. As for Palestinians suffering, they must own up to their own responsibility in that. Also, if Palestinians strictly targeted Israeli soldiers instead of blowing up families eating with their kids at pizza parlots, then the world would perhaps look at them differently. It has been said many times: If the Arabs lay down their arms, there would be peace; if the Israelis lay down there arms, there would be no Israel. Again, Lynne, I do appreciate hearing your side of things, even though I disagree. And yes, I am keeping the spiders at bay!

if I wanted to ignore the Israeli side of the conflict I wouldn't be reading the posts of Israelis.. but I am here to represent the Arab side.. I don't know if you read my previous postings (before 51) in order to understand what I am arguing about.. I haven't ignored the fact that Palestinians carry out suicide attacks against Israeli civilians niether have I justified such acts but I have given what I believe is the reason for that.. I don't think that dropping leaflets justifies shelling Palestinians... anyway when leaflets are dropped (I don't know if they actually do drop leaflets every time they raid a region)... but even when they do what I know is that they drop leaflets and never give the residents time to evacuate.. in the war on Lebanon they were dropping leaflets and striking people while on their way out of their villages (as in Marwaheen).. the Palestinians refused Barrak's offer in peace because it had brought no solution to the question of dividing Palestine into cantons scattered here and there while keeping the Israeli settlements in place.. Barak's government had accelerated settlement building as a gesture of peace.... 1988 the Palestinian National Council met in Algeria and agreed on recognising an Israeli state within the '67 borders.. "All give from Israel, NOTHING from the other side".. in the '67 borders solution Israel is taking what it is behind the '67 borders!! I do not agree with Hamas on this.. realistically it would not work.. I don't know upto what extent I can speak for Palestinians since I am not Palestinian but I believe that rationally speaking they should accept a two state agreement since I see this as the only possible solution.. what did disengagement get the Palestinians but a useless piece of desert under blockade?? if Israel does not want militant Palestinian groups it should accept that international forces be brought to protect Palestinians.. in that case there would be no more excuses for any armed militias to remain.. as for Egypt and Jordan again I insist that things are very different from Palestine in all aspects.. Israelis do not want to to establish their state in Egypt or Jordan so it was only a question of stopping war and returning occupied lands.. at the begining of the Israeli occupation Palestinians wanted to leberate what was occupied then .. but now calling for a total liberation of Palestine would be unrealistic..

honor killings are a cultural thing there is nothing in the Qur'an or Hadith that gives any green light to such barbaric acts.. quite the contrary.. in Shari'a law there is a punishment for adultry.. but with very strict laws .. it says that there should be 4 witnesses which would nearly never happen because no one (at least in our societies) would commit adultry with 4 witnesses watching!!.. I have not seen such pictures of mosques but if this did happen then I condemn prayer places being used for politics.. if it were Christians or Jews who were being massacred in Bosnia, Kosovo, Chechnya... I don't think it would had taken the US and Europe this long to act... as for Afghanistan I understand that you feel it was ok to attack Afghanistan and kill women and Children because there are some mad men hiding in mountains who MIGHT have been responsible for attacking two buildings in the US!! anyway I should remind you that during the cold war when the Soviet Union was attacking Afghanistan your government was the one who had sponsored Taliban in order to fight the Soviet Union,, so it was the same US that now claims a war on terror who was sponsoring terror not a very long time ago.. so what we conclude is that the innocent Afaghanis were the victims of the cold war between the US and Russia.. can I ask you Miss Muffet what do you think of the war on Iraq?? first the US government was claiming that Iraq was developing nuclear enrgy.. after the war this claim turned out to be a lie.. Mr. Bush had stated that the war on Iraq had nothing to do with his war on terror and the 9/11 attacks.. if you tell me that he wanted to make a democracy in Iraq then my answer is this.. his democracy had turned Iraq into chaos.. and that Saddam Hussien was again a terrorist who was supported by the US government.. the US had cheered for him when he invaded Kuwait while claiming to help the Gulf in the war.. what was the result then?? the US was able to establish military bases in the Gulf.. which upto this day have proved to be of good use for the US interests in the Gulf region.. now.. for the word Crusade.. I have looked it up in the dictionary and I got nothing but this: A medieval Christian military expedition to recover the Holy Land from Muslims .. so I should wonder do you read Mr. Bush's mind? and even if it has another meaning as you say.. when traslated into Arabic it has one and only one translation which is the Christian Crusades.. if he had said it out of ignorance then I think someone ignorant should not be given the chance to rule over a country let alone a super power that gets into wars every other day... if he had said it out of malice then this proves what I said that he is leading a war against Islam... Bush is not distinguishing between good Muslims and terrorists in the US .. anyone with a Muslim name or Muslim features is taken as suspect (guilty until proven innocent)!!.. do American F16s distinguish between the good and bad Muslims?? does the American army distinguish??

"As for Palestinians suffering, they must own up to their own responsibility in that".. I do not understand what you mean by this?? Palestinians are responsible for the Israelis keeping them under blockade and killing them?? should I remind you also that when Palestinians have kidnapped an Israeli soldier Israel had not hesitated in shelling them?? does Israel strictly attack the Palestinians who are responsible for attacking Israeli civilians??? "It has been said many times: If the Arabs lay down their arms, there would be peace; if the Israelis lay down there arms, there would be no Israel. " do you suggest that Arabs lay down their arms and wait for Israel to finish them off??!! what kind of sense is that?? under the law of the jungle I could have accepted this.. the stronger should stay while the weaker submits.. if Israel menas nothing but arms and war then this is a serious problem... I am glad you are able to accept the fact that even though we disagree on most subjects we should still be able to have some sort of communication.. if the wolrd was black and white it would have been boring and ugly.. it's our diversity that gives the world colour.. excuse me for writing too much...

I'm sorry it took me long to answer your post.. I did not have the time and I answered most of it in my reply to NL #55.. please read it if you don't mind.. but I want to comment on the expantion of Israel.. there are talks now about Jews in Iraq returning to buy lands, factories etc... Please check this website .. http://www.memri.org/bin/articles.cgi this gives the impression that what happened in Palestine is happening now in Iraq.. and if Israel did not want to expand why does it refuse withdrawing from Lebanese and Syrian occupied territories?? I think that if Israel states clearly where its borders should end in negotiations we could find a solution to this.. what exactly should we agree on?? I would love to know that we have reached an agreement even as individuals.. I know that Palestinians get medical treatment in Israeli hospitals but what I have understood from Palestinians is that not all of them recieve medical treatment in Israel.. anyway.. I think they're more interested in having a country than being treated in Israeli hospitals... I know you believe in peace.. because you should .. since wars had proven to get us nowhere.. both sides get nothing from war but more bloodshed and more hatered.. I think you should both be ready to forgive each other.. you might not like each other but I think that with an agreement that justly gives Palestinians and Israelis a state for each you should be able to survive next to each other.. but both should be ready to give concessions.. but I stress again.. they should be equal and balances concessions.. so let's just hope for the best..

Lynne, Regarding the word "crusade," your dictionary is different than mine. Merriam-Webster's Collegiate Dictionary 11th edition says: crusade: 1 (capitalized) any of the military expeditions undertaken by Christian powers in the 11th, 12th, and 13th centures to win the Holy Land from the Muslims. 2 a remedial enterprise undertaken with zeal and enthusiasm. Why do Muslim cultures allow honor killings? In the U.S., men are jailed for so much as slapping a woman. It doesn't mean women aren't poorly treated here, but we do have a rule of law and we do have recourse. You are right that the U.S. & Europe waited too long to step into the Yugoslavian fracas. But we DID step in. And do we get thanks? I hear Muslims only criticize us, as you did, that we waited too long. It is always a dilemma to start a military campaign. It can backfire, lead to worst atrocities &/or turn world opinion against us. So it needs to be done after much deliberation. I did support U.S. intervention there as did most Americans, & I beieve the same can be said for the Euros. Contrast with the complete lack of action by Muslims against the genocide going on in the Sudan by Muslims against non-Muslims. How I yearn for the day when Arab countries intervene in such a situation and send in their armies to defend the helpless. I don't believe I will ever see that in my lifetime. I think U.S. intervention in Iraq has been a disaster and that it isn't possible to bring democracy to a country that doesn't have a history of it. It needs to come along gradually. There we have Shia & Sunni hating each other with us in the middle. It is a quagmire into which we never should have stepped. I 100% support what we did in Afghanistan, though I hate that innocent people were killed. The Afghani government harbored those who attacked the U.S. When someone attacks my country, they have to accept the consequences of that. You said that in Afghanistan there were "some mad men hiding in mountains who MIGHT have been responsible for attacking two buildings in the US!!" Surely you gest, Lynn. "MIGHT?" And it wasn't buildings they attacked. (3 buildings, not 2). They killed PEOPLE. Over 3000 of them. Regular people like you and me trying to live their lives. They crashed four airplanes with regular people on them. And they did it in the name of Islam. You are right that the Afghani people have suffered and were innocent victims of the Cold War between the U.S. and the former USSR when we supported the Taliban in their struggle against the Soviets. This was a case of the U.S. saying that the enemy of my enemy is my friend, and that was WRONG. The U.S. should stand up for its principles and support freedom- and democracy-loving countries and no one else. Re the Palestinians, YES, I do feel they are greatly responsible for the predicament in which they find themselves. I also blame the Arab governments in the region who have allowed the refugee problem to fester because it suits them politically. But mainly I blame the Palestinians who do stupid things like destroy the greenhouses that were left to them in Gaza, who kill with their bare hands and triumphantly hold their bloodied hands up after killing Israeli reservists who took a wrong turn and ended up in a Palestinian village, who strap explosives onto themselves and then walk into a pizza parlor with kids and families eating in it or who walks into a hotel where families are having a Passover meal, anyone who does that or supports it is SICK. I do appreciate your taking the time to express your views. It is clear to me that you and I have completely different world views from each other, but at least it is good to talk.

I am sorry it took me even longer to reply. If your are stil monitoring this forum, lynne, please be advised that the memri link doesn't seem to be working any more, so I was unable to check it out. You seem to be worried that Iraqi Jews are buyng back some of their properties - well, perhpas they are investing. I see no crime there. Iraq's economy does need a boost, and if these people have the money and the energy to start the wheels of society going, why not? I mean Arabs buy property in US and UK, etc., the most luxurious hotels, prime real estate, etc, does that mean they are expanding or investing? Israelis buy and sell real estate elsewhere as well, just as anybody else on this planet. I see nothing more than legitimate business transactions. As to Arafat's declarations, well, they didn't exactly match his deeds, there was nothing but terror on his mind, he used to speak of peace to the Israeli public, then go back to his own audience and go - jihad, jihad, jihad, el-Quds el-Shariff, el-Quds el-Shariff, el-shaabi falastini (he used to repeat everything 3 times, that's how even I managed to pick up a few words). Barghuti used to rejoice (live on Palestinian TV) whenever he got news that a suicide bomber succeeded in blowing up something in Israel, but when the IDF came for him he disguised himself as an old woman. What I mean is, not always do Palestinian leaders mean what they say. Jordan, on the other hand, there was peace before there was a treaty. Jordan acknowledges Israel's border along the Jordan river (I wonder whether they should not be consulted about a Palestinian state squeezed between themselves and Israel, as the PLO was a real danger for late king Hussein (PBUH) - just a thought. You said something about a worthless piece of desert (they got millions of dollars worth of hothouses, that they destroyed, though). Yes, without the Jews, Israel/Palestine would have remained a useless piece of desert, as described by Mark Twain, Sir Winston Churchill and many others. Anyway, today (for some years now) all of Gaza, plus the major WB cities - Ramallah, Nablus, Jenin, Bethlehem are under PA rule. For the past ten years they received 1 billion USD/year in aid, thanks to the efforts of Shimon Peres alone, who spared no effort launching joint Israeli-Palestinian projects, in order to create some framework for contact, dialogue, and yes, defuse tension, because as you said, there is mistrust and misconception on both sides. One such project was the medical treatment of Palestinians in top Israeli hospitals. I agree with you, better have a state with proper hospitals, but until that becomes available, why not be treated in Israel for any kind of conditions. http://youtube.com/watch?v=22XEkJY62VA&mode=related&search= (This is how a patient thought she might express ther thanks). Now the Palestinians are undermining even this project, claiming that they want to use the money as they see fit. I have no problem with that, but the goal of this venture was COOPERATION - Israel also agreed to train Palestinian doctors in Israel. Mr. Peres used his international prestige and recognition to raise the funds. If the Palestinians want funds to do with them as they please (e.g. buy explosive, dig tunnels, or plain embezzle), let them convince the international community, who will rush to please them, at least Europe will. But I believe I cannot ask you for money to say, feed my children, and spend it my local pub. I just gave you this example with the hospitals, because it was a good way to build bridges and gain mutual trust. I guess Hamas wants no more of that. (part II coming up)