Culture
Hebrew or Israeli? Linguist stirs Zionist debate
Reuters
Published: 29.11.06, 10:20
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26 Talkbacks for this article
1. So what?
Bechor   (11.29.06)
Judaism is a dynamic and evolving culture and religion - this is what has ensured its survival through thousands of years of persecution. Is Arabic the same language as it was 2000 years ago? Is German? Is Italian? Of course not. It is an assumed truth that languages change and evolve with time, and Hebrew is no exception. The language spoken in Israel today is the language of modern Judaism: Hebrew. Jews Unite http://www.globaljewishcommunity.com
2. Israeli
mark ,   ranana   (11.29.06)
I think with his academic credentials one must assume that the author's contention is revolutionary but based on sound linguistic principles. It does seem to me however that modern Hebrew is closer to mediaeval Hebrew is closer to Mishnaic Hebrew is closer to Biblical Hebrew than say Mod E is to ME is to OE or Italian is to dog Latin is to classical Latin or Mod Fr is to Old Fr and one might add with remarkably fewer borrowings than these other languages. Another point is that Mishnaic Hebrew developed concurrently with Greek and Roman occupations, both nations with inordinately powerful linguistic influences, but not on Hebrew. Possibly the reason for this is at least twofold: the provenance of Hebrew is Semitic and the sanctity ascribed to the language in which the ancient texts were written. So Modern Hebrew would seem to merit the name Hebrew, everything else not withstanding. I await the opportunity of actually reading the professors book.
3. Hebrew, Israeli or Zionist?
Russell Cohen ,   JNB (ZA)   (11.29.06)
The subject might make for interesting academic discussion, but it’s pretty irrelevant, except that it appears to play into the hands of those who would dispute our claim of historic ties to Israel. Why Israeli, BTW? Why not “Zionist”? The development of modern Hebrew predates the existence of Israel as a state and took place within the framework of the Zionist revival.
4. Its as silly as renaming US English "American"
lev ,   Italy   (11.29.06)
Modern Hebrew is much closer to ancient Hebrew than, say, modern American English is to Shakespearean English - so by the logic of this linguist we should rename modern English - perhaps "Americanish"? Its just silly!
5. Zuckermann should be renamed MORON
(11.29.06)
6. He makes a valid point
Paul ,   Austin, USA   (11.29.06)
Modern, standard Hebrew is so far removed from "proper" Hebrew in phonology, orthography and vocabularly that it barely functions as a semitic language. The Teiman Jews speak the closest thing to correct Hebrew, and even that's not uncorrupted. The designation is really irrelevant, though.
7. Rediculous!
Sam ,   Atlanta   (11.29.06)
A society is indeed defined by its borders, language, and culture, however this is taking it a step too far. The hebrew modern day Israelis speak is not that far of a deviation from the biblical hebrew! It's much closer, as the author pionts out, that modern day english is to beowolf, or even shakespeare for that matter. This is proposterous! to lose the identity of the language to simply to the name of the country is rediculous. The language was spoken before the term "Israelite" was even around, am I right? You should call the jewish people hebrews, and call the state of Israel "Hebrewland" before you switch it the other way around. rediculous!
8. He's Neturai Karta
Anti Zionist ,   Jerusalem   (11.29.06)
They have the same view as him thats why they still speak yiddish and they are right Israel and Modern Hebrew has nothing to do with Jewish and Jews.
9. Hebrew has been around since Adam.
Aharon ,   US   (11.29.06)
If it wasn't for the confusing of Languages at Babel, we'd all be speaking pure Hebrew, but now we all speak 'confused' versions of it. In that day, the only people who continued to speak it was those who descended from Shem, who was righteous and didn't partake in the building of the Tower of Babel. That's why it is called a "Semetic" language because it was used by Shemites. It was God's way of keeping the lineage of his people, from Adam to Abraham to Jacob to David to Yeshua, and so on, pure, which includes a language that is pure and set apart. Sure it's changed to keep up with the times, but that doesn't change the fact that Hebrew is a language that God intended for His own people. To take that important part of identity away from God's people would be rediculous.
10. silliness
tom ,   toronto, canada   (11.30.06)
the idea that because some of the vocabulary has been "reinvented" makes modern hebrew a different language than biblical hebrew is just as absurd as saying that modern english words like "kleenex" or "velcro" or "rollerblade" make modern english a different language. the simple fact is that modern israeli speakers have no problem recognizing 90% of the vocabulary and grammar of biblical hebrew - far more than can be said for any document that is over 2,000 years old in any other language on earth. but if this *is* about political agendas, i'm surprised he didn't propose to call it "judeao-palestinian" (on the other hand, the idea of using "merican" to denote the language of the united states is certainly appealing!)
11. ZION, Not Hebrew or Israeli.
IamJoseph ,   Sydney   (11.30.06)
This must be the answer to the world, who have used the term Zionist as a covert placebo for their antismitism. 'MOSES WAS THE FIRST ZIONIST - AND PALESTINE IS A ZIONIST PLOT' - no pun intended.
12. This is stupid.....the "natural evolution".....
Eliezer Ben Yehuda ,   (OK, Andy from R"H)   (11.30.06)
that Zuckerman claims is lacking and that Hebrew did not undergo, means that modern Hebrew is purer and more like its historical antecedent than it would have been if it had been gradually bastardized over the last 1700 years. The fact that I can understand Torah when I read it and an Englishman cannot understand Beowoolf proves the point. Its current form was the product of the talent and will of the early Zionists and not the ages, but it is no less Hebrew - and arguably it is more so.
13. #9 - Do you really believe that is our history?
Andy ,   ramat hasharon   (11.30.06)
14. Child's game!
enzo ,   london,uk   (11.30.06)
When G-d created heaven and earth he spoke in Hebrew. When Moses said: "Let my people go!" he said it in Hebrew. When we read the Torah we read it in Hebrew, not in Israeli!!!! When we pray we pray in Hebrew, not in Israeli!!! It is a little bit pathetic to assume that people don't speak "real" Hebrew simply because the word "external hard drive" or "CD Rom" didn't exist 2000 years ago.
15. this is completely irrelevant...
yonatan ,   nyc   (11.30.06)
absolutely pointless.
16. Never trust a book worm from Oxford and Cambridge.
Steven Wilson ,   Anchorage, Alaska   (11.30.06)
After many drunken nights of head butting their many books.....they come up with asinine arguments to get all of their fellow journalism buddies to write about in the news media. The lot of them hung out in little rooms reading books together. They must come up with new ingenious things to argue about and print. Don't ask them for directions though. They never got out of the little room long enough to learn them.
17. An article by Zuckermann
Michael ,   Israel   (11.30.06)
I have found the following most telling and convincing article: http://yiddish.haifa.ac.il/tmr/tmr09/tmr09013.htm Michael
18. Smacks of hellenism
Gordon Shifman ,   Shoham, Israel   (11.30.06)
Maybe this is an awkward question for the author and his avant-garde friends to answer, but how come us ignorant traditional Jews understand our ancient texts (the Torah) if they are written in a language that according to him is a mere fantasy?
19. Nice Logic
Jason ,   London, UK   (11.30.06)
So English isn't English becasue its nothing like Shakespere spoke... let alone Chaucer.... pratt. I wonder what Americans speak?
20. 18, 2 and 7: what you are saying is groundless
YONA ,   Tel Aviv   (11.30.06)
Israelis MIS-understand the bible all the time! Stop this propaganda. Insightful Zuckermann is right to suggest that we must translate the Bible into Israeli. Here is what Zuckermann, my wonderful professor, writes in http://www2.trincoll.edu/~mendele/tmr/tmr08013.htm (1) "despite eleven years of studying the Old Testament at school, Israelis depend on the extensive use of glosses (e.g. of Hartom-Cassuto). Moreover, many Israelis believe that they understand the Old Testament as it is, whereas they actually "understand" it from the point of view of Israeli, not of Hebrew! (2) "speakers of Modern English cannot understand even Geoffrey Chaucer, who is much more recent (c. 1343-1400). However, no one would claim that their language is not genetically related to contemporary English!"
21. You are pathetic, Steven Wilson (16)
YONA ,   Tel Aviv   (11.30.06)
You say "They never got out of the little room long enough to learn them". Why do you not have a look at http://www.zuckermann.org/profile.html
22. English comparisons?
Lior ,   London   (11.30.06)
Depends what you mean by "modern" English. The English of the middle classes? Of Oxbridge? This English is spoken with an accent and a grammar just a little older than a century. There remain many parts of England where the term "dialect" hides a spoken tradition which in many regards is closer to the English of the Reformation than the "received English" of the BBC and the suburbs. That Hebrew has "missed out" on a so-called crucial stage of its development is a red herring. Under normal circumstances, it would have developed, naturally, modern technological terms. But, like many Third World countries, it absorbed a sudden in-rush of modern terms much in the same way as many African and Asian languages have done. This particular pattern of absorption does not illegitimize a language. Whilst we're on the subject... did you know that Gaelic, for example, has no word for sex? Yep... but they've got one for television. Don't ask what they do during a power outage...
23. Hebrew died at least twice
amnon   (12.02.06)
What we speak today is an attempt to relect what Hebrew was, or what it was thought to be. It is close, but no cigar. One can begin by comparing transliterations in any ancient translation and see that, for example, the vowel system which the Masoretes codified is not reflective of the actual pronunciation in pre-Mishna times. Plus, with the absolutely massive borrowing of foreign words (which are often used in place of the existing Hebrew equivalent), the accusation of Israeli Hebrew being a different language is with strong merit.
24. Hebrew language should be Israeli
Rose Richter ,   Ra'anana, Israel   (12.03.06)
At the time Kemal Bey Ataturk chose the MODERN LATIN ALPHABET to modernise Turkish, WHY DIDN'T Ben Yehuda ALSO CHOOSE THE MODERN ALPHABET so that Israelis are NOT cut off from the world? I klearnt Turkish in 10 minutes BECAUSE I COULD READ IT!! Hebrew is an ancient alphabet - NO VOWELS - STUPID.
25. modern hebrew, biblical hebrew, modern greek, ancient greek
johanna ,   tsfat   (12.04.06)
all languages evolve, have "loan" words and so on. languages change over time and develop. this is normal and hebrew will still keep developing. hebrew is still hebrew and greek is still greek. if you can read biblical hebrew then you can read modern hebrew, even if you don't know what the words mean. i believe the same is true for greek. if you know and can read the modern languages, then you can read the ancient ones, even if you don't understand all the terms. the sad thing for the turks is that they can't easily read their own old texts, because of the complete change of script whereas even children can easily read ancient hebrew pottery even when written in a slightly different hebrew script. ask any museum. languages are not set in stone, even if they are written in it. so hebrew is hebrew.
27. just to make things clear
roli ,   miami beach, USA   (05.28.10)
I agree with the professor that it should be called Israeli when referred to in English, it will be less confusing for people who are ignorant like #8, until they decide to join the remainder of the modern Jewish people in lively discussions about our past and future , with the present Israeli, and without the need for a 'rebbe's oversight or approval. Fortunately, although there is still no native profanity in the language that was wrought by children in the eye of the tempest of war, we can still use the ones from Arabic(the other official language) towards anti-Zionist rioters in Bnei Brak and Yerushalayim.
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