Please see #22 on the following. http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3334905,00.html

"YES, THANKS TO THE COMPLICITY OF THE INDIFFERENT SECULAR AMERICAN JEWS." Dana, I'm afraid you're right. Do you think, though, that it might take two to tango? Notice how many really nasty TBs I have gotten here for being supportive of gay rights. And it couldn't be that I am seen as a typical Leftist, as I spend more time bashing the Left than bashing the Haredim. Do you think that what the Haredim are doing right now in Israel might alienate people like me just as what the Haredim did in Europe alienated American Jews during WW2? Please don't think I'm making excuses for American Jews of that time. No way. I'll have to tell you, though, that when I am told more than once that I am the Serpent or that, because I am gay, I should be murdered (oops, I mean "killed," as my killing would be G-dly and thus not "murder"), I guess I do take offense.

You say, "17. See why Reform & Conservative have like 10 members in Israel." I think that has something to do with the politics of religion in Israel. The Orthodox control Judaism in Israel with the force of government behind it. BTW, you know all those Israeli Jews who cannot tolerate Orthodoxy? Rather than being Conservative, they just end up anti-Judaism. Or don't you count your very hefty (46%?) secular minority as a failure?

"High school yeshiva students have logged more gemara study than most conservative "Goanim"" Yes, dana, these yeshiva students are very good at learning by rote an incoherent and made-up body of law. Memorization is not scholarship, though. Furthermore, rabbis who think that what these students are learning is nonsense certainly should not be expected to know more of such nonsense than students who dedicate their lives to memorizing it. I look at supposedly smart Torah experts (e.g. Elyashiv) with great shame, as I know perfectly well that they are not half as good in the scholarship department as the German Pope.

Yes I have heard of the "Oral Law," but I do not believe it was handed down at Sinai. I certainly don't believe that historical interpretations developed 1000 years later have the same status as the Big 5. Sorry.

Actually the Karaites and Samaritans, although they do not follow Halacha, have their own traditions which are very similar to halacha, and they are both way more traditional than Reform or Conservative are. However, because of power struggles way back, they have been disowned by present Orthodoxy, notwithstanding praiseworthy words about the Samaritans from rabbinic greats such as Rabbi Akiva. As they say in French "le mieux est l'ennemi du bien"- "the better is the enemey of the good". Too bad centuries ago, rabbinic Judaism wrote off and marginalized in turn the Samaritans and later the Karaites. Now these groups are tiny. Now Orthodoxy is faced with assimilation, and Reform and Conservative. Bet you wish you hadn''t written off the Samaritans and the Karaites, eh?

Jesus was very hard on religious 'leaders' He accused them of taking away the key of knowledge from the people' The religious leaders had the 'Law' entrusted to them so that they could instruct the people about the 'will' of God. But they failed miserably.You see what has to be taught is not our personal ideas of what is right or wrong but what God says on the matter. I often wondered why God imposed the death penalty on this particular activity, but i now have come to understand, that our activities rewire our brain, and we are creatures of habit. we can not break a habit good or bad easily and we make up all sorts of reasons to excuse our behavior. Jesus is the only one that through his atonement for sin can really break sins hold over us.

I have read so much heretical stuff from this sk chap. I don't know if he/she is a Jew but I truely pray it is not. I don't hold grudges and I love my fellow, but this sk is really off the mark. By not accepting the Oral Torah, by not respecting the Rabbis and Rabbinical law, by flagrantly expressing forbidden ideology {gay sex is really OK in Torah}, this individual is leading others astray. I beseech all readers to ignore sk, and do yourself a favor and study some Torah and Halacha. Wasting time reading the gay-agenda crowd at Ynet is simply a chillul hashem. sk is a hater of all that is Jewish, he has created a L-rd in his own image. This is the classic definition of a heretic. I hereby rebuke sk....

What you refrenced was not me, it was a different Lee. Actually, I always sign my name on these posts with all caps (LEE) as you'll see on the same page you referenced. But, I undestand why you didn't reply. There's not much left to say. Take care of yourself.

Marilyn, Just to let you know. Judaism, whether Reform, Conservative, Orthodox, Samaritan, Karaite, or any other version, will never ever ever accept the divinity of Jesus Christ or any other human being, male or female. In our faith, God is so wonderful and powerful and beyond human understanding that God will never ever come down to the level of human beings. As it is written in the Torah, what you call the Old Testament "My ways or not thy ways, saith the Eternal"". It is we human beings who are encouraged by God the Eternal Indivisible Merciful to try to come closer to God through prayer and good deeds. In our faith God does not require the sacrifice of any human being''s life "but a broken spirit and a contrite heart"" ie. repentance from the individual human being who has sinned. In our faith, which is open to all, we and all humanity, including you, have a direct line to the Eternal Ruler of the Universe. That is why we shall never accept any other faith. We are worshipping the Eternal Ruler of the Universe, Always Merciful, Always Kind, Unkowable, Indivisible, the Maximum Eternal Being. That is why we will not settle for any other. God, the Eternal Indivisible Ruler of the Universe accepts you fully, even though you deny his Indivisibility. So, with all due respect, we shall never ever agree with you on matters of religion.

They are called Samaritans and Karaites, they find that Talmud and Tanach is non canon thus not true. Ask the Samaritans and Karaites if they want to be called Jews, go ahead, they will laugh in your face

I especially like your last line, "I hereby rebuke sk." How clownish. Your problem is that you simply cannot defend your absurd beliefs when we go head to head. That's why you end up fuming about my heresy and liken me to the Serpent. You can't even get halacha right: http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3295173,00.html

Lee, I told you why I didn't reply. Now I'll have to wait until tomorrow, alas. I don't see how you could think that you've left me speechless. I'm never THAT. ;-)

It is your right to believe that the oral law is not from Sinai but an only human creation. This does make you, I guess, a true "conservative" Jew. You should therefore consider that other Jews can believe in other things and respect their believings. Which does mean not bashing the way of life they chose according to their believing.

"I think you missed #9's point. What she/he was trying to get through to you, with little success, is that to be Haredi does not mean to wear what you consider to be a "clown suit". To be Haredi means to fear G-d (to the point of trembling, thanks for that clarification). This is the reason, it seems, that she/he told you that it means the same thing for Sephardic, Ashkenazi, and Mizrachi." No, LEE, I didn't miss #9's point. You seem to be bright, so I don't understand why you think so highly of #9's rhetorical trick of playing with the definition of "Haredi." I am reminded of those who define Islam as the religion of peace because of the etymology of the word "Islam." When I refer to the Haredim, I refer to a group of Jews with a particular social, cultural, and political structure. Could such an structure have existed 2000-3000-4000 years ago? Surely not. Social, cultural, and political systems just do not remain unchanged for so long. Anyway, most of the doctrinal detail that the Haredim believe in is of more recent vintage. Obviously not all Sephardim (for example) are Haredim as well. And yes, Ovadia Yosef, who surely counts as an exemplary Sephardic Haredi, does wear a clown suit: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ovadia_Yosef The settlers are probably much, much closer to the Maccabees than the Haredim are (as I use the latter term). "I, myself, am not what you would consider Haredi, nor even Modern Orthodox, but even I can appreciate the dedication and loyalty of the Haredim." I consider the Haredim (as I use the term) disloyal to the state of Israel and a net detriment to it. I dislike their mindless conformity, their penchant for violence, and their insistence that everyone else should fund their odd ways and their fertility. "It is not my habit to forecast evil tidings on individuals, but your arrogance is astounding and if I were you (and thank Heaven I'm not) I would be very "Haredi" when I stand before the Creator." Oh please, LEE. My "arrogance" amounts to disputing historically dubious doctrinal accretions and making fun of religious leaders who deserve prison time (along with Peres, Merlot, etc., etc.).

"You should therefore consider that other Jews can believe in other things and respect their believings. Which does mean not bashing the way of life they chose according to their believing." ezra, I used to be much more reluctant to criticize the Haredim publicly, but then came the gay parade in Jerusalem. The actions of the Haredi leadership and followers were simply outrageous, and these actions dovetailed with numerous smaller outrages perpetrated by the same forces, and with their historical collusion with the Left at the expense of the typical Israeli Moshe. I have no trouble letting people alone, but when they will not let me alone, I see no reason to be silent. If I were an Israeli citizen, I would also be furious at having to fund Haredi fertility and Torah study (at the expense of military service, most of the time). I don't think I am being unreasonable.

While I have absolutely nothing in common with the Haredim (being an atheist myself), as far as their dress is concerned, Ovadia Yosef wears a caftan, which, while it may be quite antithetical to typical Western dress, certainly looks a hell of a lot better than the garb worn by some of the Ashkenazi haredim such as knickers and fur hats, which are the real "clown suits" and that, frankly, make a lot of secular Jews absolutely cringe.

So many of you are way to sensitive to this. it's really not remarkable at all. Orthodoxy has changed so many of its Torah-abiding traditions over the past several centuries and so too has Conservative Judaism. What one forgets when one movement mocks another because of what one feels is a disregard for Torah, is that such contempt and hatred is tantamount to hating Torah. Hate as much as you like but know that this means you hate Torah as well.

haredim destroyed torah when they destroyed jerusalem over the gay pride parade. god forbid the haredim from ever acting in such a clear aggression against god.

everyone is obsessed with gay people! the same people post comments here every day. it's lke you can't get enough of us gay guys. it's really quite astonishing and amazing how powerful gay people are. for man of you it seems that the only law is judaism is not to have homosexual sex. is that what judaism is to you? laws regarding anal sex? kind of disrespectful, no? i think the anal sex prohibition is about .00000000000001% of judaism but thanks for making it 100% of it!!

You have right to criticize who you want but mocking is not criticizing. I have told you that your many referecnes to the haredi clownsuit is a perfect example of mocking rather than criticizing. To keep your own word, you should therefore stop using these kinds of offensive talk. For example, the clothes of the Rishon leTziyon are the traditional ottoman suit of the great rabbi of Ysrael. But you can keep calling it a clown suit and insulting the traditonal sefardi Jews...

What is it about Ynet censors lately? Obviously 52 is a fake. Since misrepresenting oneself as another is against Ynet guidelines, I expect the censor at least to post my TB that points out such a fake posting.

I expect 54 wasn't you, either. However, I would be happy to see a response to my #46.

ezra, you say, "You have right to criticize who you want but mocking is not criticizing." Of course mockery is criticism. It is not, perhaps, *respectful* criticism, but I do not intend to be respectful in this case. "To keep your own word, you should therefore stop using these kinds of offensive talk." Huh? How am I failing to keep what word? "For example, the clothes of the Rishon leTziyon are the traditional ottoman suit of the great rabbi of Ysrael. But you can keep calling it a clown suit and insulting the traditonal sefardi Jews..." Yes, yes, yes. I am getting a bit annoyed. Rabbi Ovadia Yosef has likened gay people (including gay Jews) to Canaanites (who should therefore be expelled from Israel or killed). He is not a marginal Sephardi rabbi. I do not respect him, and I do not care that his followers are offended. He and his followers deeply offend *me*. The garb of Sephardi leadership (in particular) is simply a visible sign of invisible corruption and backwardness. I have said repeatedly that my criticisms (polite and impolite) of the Haredim are based on more than one issue, though. Review other TBs here for more detail. How I can make my position more clear? Maybe I'll try this. Let's think of all those Muslim leaders (and plenty of followers) who constantly insult those of other faiths and who kill them when they can. A proper response, in my view, is to feel free to insult the "Prophet" at every opportunity. Yosef and other Haredi rabbis should not be treated with respect or tact when their sayings and actions mirror those of their Islamic counterparts. When Haredim (including "traditional Sefardi Jews") nod their heads at the murder of gay Jews, I don't mind insulting them, their religious doctrines, or their clothing. They deserve no politeness in the aggregate. If individual Sephardim differ with Yosef, I am happy to make exceptions. Anyway, I am not sure this exchange is productive any more.

i disagree and i would like to mock you later honey.

You're not ezra. Become literate before you pretend to impersonate those who are. Honey.