and very relevant quote from ben zoma.

Here you go http://www.har-habayt.org/

No matter how progressive, wise, judgmentally sound and inclusive the government 's approach to the construction is the radical Islamists wil spin it, manipulate it and use it as a pretext to continue their mischief. They are not interested in reason but rather in conflict. And if conflict they want, conflict they shall have.

It's Jewish land, end of story!

I guess there is some logic in this thinking.....maybe, somehow.

It would be an error to try & squeeze any logic out of the situation. It's the ME, man, just roll with it.

Arabs are not wishing to participate in civilized dialogue, they wish to take over your country. You couldn't be that naive to believe otherwise.

I believe he was a self-righteous do-gooder and leftist who was murdered by the people he was trying to be fair to during one of his missions of peace.

that was not evaluated in terms of the ultimate goal of driving out the origional inhabitants of the land?

Typically, the Reformed writer misrepresents the facts to make their case. In this case, the fires were set by leftist secular peace delusionist Moshe Dayan when he treacherously declined to maintain responsibility for Har ha-Bayit -- because it was religious. Some peace the peace delusionists, like the Reformed author of the article, bring. There is nothing more damaging to Israel's foreign policy than its perpetual inconsistency and its result: injustice. This has nothing to do with anger. The capriciousness of Israel's leaders means that Arabs (as well as Ultra-Orthodox, settlers and anarchists) never know what they can get away with -- yet again -- or what will bring harsh retribution. Justice isn't even in the equation. All that our leaders -- and secular left peace delusionists -- take into account is immediate expediency. They are clueless and completely blind relative to the long-term welfare of Israel. Painting those who disagree with you as slaves to anger is irresponsible demagoguery. Defend what is ours in all exigencies, no matter what, or stay in the U.S. Paqid Yirmeyahu Israeli Orthodox Jew Advancing Logic as Halakhic Authority Welcoming Jews & non-Jews www.netzarim.co.il

Ben Zoma was a reknowned Jewish sage. Some of his teachings are still preserved in the Jewish prayer book.

Israeli leadership past and present inherited the "inconsistency" from the pre-state “yishuv” leadership. A worker can only build with the materials he is given. To expect more from him is futile. Blaming Israel's leadership seems futile. If you want things to be different then you need to drastically change the founding ideals of the modern state of Israel and create a constitution so that people know what it means to be Israeli and what to expect in the present and what direction to aim for the future.

Yes it gave citizenship to now almost a million of the "original inhabitants". Not to mention tht Jew are original inhabitats too, thus we can't drive ourself out of this land.

Again this "Israeli orthodox Jew" who try to convince the whole world he is so . By claiming this he is insulting the TRUE Israeli Orthodox Jews . It's not enough to proclaim you are Jewish to be Jewish .

"Ben Zona" actually means "son of a whore" in Hebrew. "Ben" means "son" and "zona" means "whore".This epithet is saved for special occasions in cussing out somebody who has done something really despicable, like the merchant who clipped you out of 5 cents on some cucumbers at the shuk. #3: HeeHeeHeeHeeHee

A constitution is a reasonable suggestion from a secular perspective. However, inconsistency results from lack of vision or courage; it is not inherited. Your assertion that the inconsistency of Israeli leaders' is inherited is racist. Israel's internal turmoil derives from the intractable contradiction between 1. secular leftists' insistence on a non-Judaic, secular, racist democracy based on culture and racial ethnicity that guarantees racial "Jewishness," on the one hand, or 2. a people-nation oriented around Torah. The former require a non-Judaic, secular constitution that recognizes ethnic culture and a racist definition of "Jewish." The latter already have a constitution: Torah. You don't want either the racist "Jewish" constitution OR Torah. So you contradict yourself. Rethink. Paqid Yirmeyahu Israeli Orthodox Jew Advancing Logic as Halakhic Authority Welcoming Jews & non-Jews www.netzarim.co.il

You have to go to school , try to read correctly . There is a difference between an N and an M . Actually it was ben ZoMa . Yacov , if you insult a man for 5 agourot , poor mentality of a "religious" racist .

Your post screams for a response. So here it is. First of all there is nothing racist in my assertion that Israeli "leadership" inherited the inconsistency. Inheriting an ideology (or ideologies) is nothing genetic or racial. The inconsistency I'm referring to is simple. The state of Israel was founded and built for the most part by people who had "set aside" the Jewish religion, at least if you go by their public statements and actions. You're right that attempting to establish a "non-religious" Jewish state is contradictory. But it wasn't so contradictory back then (late 19th and early 20th century). There were non-religious xtian European nations from which most of the early Zionists hailed from. There were European overseas colonies. The problem is that ideologies have a limited shelf life. And things a re very different in EU today and so the original secular Zionist idea is no longer politically correct. Now this is where I disagree with you. Religious "Zionism" (or "religious" Zionism) also presents IMHO a contradiction. On the one hand it is a clear unambiguous departure from a number of respected traditional Jewish views that do not support a Jewish state established by force before the messianic redemption or before the return of verifiable prophecy to the Jewish people. I have seen these sources myself. Secondly, by attempting to establish a theocracy it "bites" the hand that gave it a state (the secular Zionists). Might I say it is an attempted coup d'etat of sorts? This is problematic without messianic or prophetic credentials as required by traditional Judaism. This ambiguity exists b'cos of the principles on which the modern state of Israel was founded. And it is this ambiguity that leads to inconsistency and hence injustice. Now you're wrong to think that theren't religious Jews who support a secular, just state (with all that implies) with a constitution that grants equal rights to all its Jewish and Arab citizens regardless of religion. It’s not the only thing you're wrong about. I wouldn't mind a Jewish theocracy with a "torah" constitution. From my studies on this subject, it will suit me just fine. Provided it happens, when the Jewish people are ready for it, with the right calibre of leadership (verifiable prophetic/messianic credentials). You see at the time that Israel is truly ready for a theocracy, every G-d fearing person on earth would witness this and accept the will of G-d. So even I will have to accept this. Heck even the President of Iran might be converted!! Before this time, IMHO a secular soln. (with a just constitution) is the best soln. for the Jewish people, the Jewish religion and Arabs. At the time when the Jewish religion merits the position of "secular" leadership it will flow naturally from a just and peaceful nation. At present, I don't see how the present ambiguity, the injustice and consequent divisions among the Jewish people (and in the religion itself) advance the Jewish religion (peacefully) towards this goal. Nor do I see how it "sanctifies" the Unique Name to those non-observant Jews (who seek social justice as torah requires), let alone to non-Jews. P.S. The name is Abdullah!! Respectfully

I don't mean any disrespect in my spelling of your name. I'll spell your name as you prefer; but I think it's essential also to point out its meaning for those who otherwise might not realize it. I don't object if you wish to retaliate by translating Yirmeyahu. Thank you for your reasoned response. I'm relieved that you used inherit in a figurative rather than physical sense. Many of your compatriots mean it in a physical sense. While the contradiction of a non-religious "Jewish" state may have been more difficult to see in the post-WW-II years, the contradiction is intrinsic and independent of European attitudes or "political correctness." As you must also know from your studies, the sources precluding the reemergence of Israel before the Mashiakh or a Navi are uncertain speculations by those lacking the credentials of Navi or Mashiakh; they do not constitute definite, ultimate or final Torah authority. For the State of Israel to evolve into its prophesied description is not at all problematic relative to Torah (whereas relative to the secular founders, Europe, etc. is irrelevant). "Religious" Jews is an ambiguous description, which includes Reformed, etc. These are irrelevant. Relative to Torah Jews, by contrast, no one has been able to present any type of government, including any form of democracy so far proposed, that can guarantee a continuing Torah-central state in the face of equal votes of a predominating Arab-Muslim citizenry. Muslims know that democracy for Israel means "soon Muslim Palestine." Thus, whether Torah Jews recognize it or not, such a government is intractably incompatible with a Torah-central state and, therefore, unacceptable to any Torah Jew who grasps the ramifications of a democratic government as, so far, envisioned. No solution can stem from a secular government except the transition to a Torah-centered government. But it seems unlikely to me that this will be even a rabbinic dictator, much less an Ultra-Orthodox dictator. If you want to know my opinion of what you would be wise to look for, look for moderate Torah Jews to emerge -- as a movement, not a person-leader-Messiah. Moderate Torah Jews, of the tradition of Beit Hileil instead of Beit Shamai, arising as a predominant force in Israel can turn Israel in the proper direction. It's essential to keep in mind two Scriptures in particular: 1. concerning Israel becoming a kingdom of kohanim and a holy people and 2. that Mosheh Rabeinu, which urged to arrest those who were prophesying, instead wished aloud that every man in Israel could prophesy. With rabbinic excesses curbed, I think Torah will be recognized by a great moderate number who now identify themselves variously as traditional, Conservative and even a number of seculars. That would surely sanctify the Name. That's the way I see it happening. And the goyim will pay no attention whatsoever, and will be totally unaware until it's too late. Leave Islam and follow Torah, even at the cost of this life, in order to obtain life in olam ha-ba. According to Torah (including as interpreted by the Sages; e.g. Rambam), the goyim will NOT miraculously recognize the Mashiakh OR the beginning of the Messianic Era. Initially, neither will the Jews. It will be as in the days of Noah. You've obviously done some serious study and reflection. I commend you. Yet, while I respect your right to your opinions, you are not qualified to stipulate provisions about the Jewish people, their readiness, to render authoritative proclamations concerning the interpretations of Torah or make determinations concerning Torah credentials. That can -- and will -- only be decided by Orthodox batei din over time. This is getting (has already gotten) too complex for Ynet. I invite you to continue in the Convention Center blog of my website. Paqid Yirmeyahu Israeli Orthodox Jew Advancing Logic as Halakhic Authority Welcoming Jews & non-Jews www.netzarim.co.il

that was evaluated in terms of the ultimate goal of driving out the original inhabitants of the land?

Despite Rabbi Kariv's sensitivity, understanding and good will, he just does not seem to get the Arab mentality. Any dempnstration by Israel towards the Arabs has been met by Arab perception of Israel's weakness or lack of fortitude and this is usually expressed by violence. Then a new[set of demands are made and once again Israel is called upon to respect Arab sensibilities. Isn't it about time that we got off this train which is on its way to further disasters. ? Ephraim Rubinger

origional inhabitants of the land. There were only a few thousand Jews there when Zionism began. 700,000 Arabs lived there at the time. Face it. You are a bunch of Europeans who took advantage of colonialism to grab someone else's land.

Such high morals, you truly are living on other people's land. so LOL

150 years ago doesn't justify the same kind of activity during the past 50 years. Can you keep slaves because the Americans used to do it?

Is the tora not racist ? What means : Asher bacharta otanu micol ha'amim ? What about men saying every morning : Thank you for not have made a woman from me ? And democracy in the tora ? Democracy and religion can't go together , religion is opposed to democracy . Religion has to stay out of politics , rabbanim have to stay at the beth knessth , not in the Knesseth . Tora has never to be Israel's constitution . It's only coercision against other people , it takes away their freedom . Israel is the HISTORICAL home for the Jews . History has nothing to do with religion .

Quote:'Tora has never to be Israel's constitution . It's only coercision against other people , it takes away their freedom . Israel is the HISTORICAL home for the Jews . History has nothing to do with religion . " =========== Perhaps in recent history but When the Torah was given to moses it was meant to be the guiding foundations when they eventual entered the promised Land.... I believe when the messiah returns the Torah will again be the foundation.....but it will be writtin upon our hearts and the following of the Law will be effortless....