and claim that the rabbinat-imposed rules for halacha have been in place for 300 years : According to this, Ruth, and consequently David haMelech were not Jews.

Sauly from NJ which he calls Eress Yisrael, wants to give financial support to 300,000 or so immigrants that came without shtreimels and without shaitels. Daikon, the raddish 9 holds that WHAT SENSE WOULD IT BE TO ''PASS'' FAILED PEOPLE. dovid -a jabad common 1st name- of jerusalem would like to see the 300,000 exported to germany of all places. an idiot called me, would have the problem to be sharon's. even though most immigrated before he dreamt of being PM. a self proclaimed real jew- which is what lubovichers call themselves to deflect the truth of them being idolaters- applauds fellow lubovichers dovid calling for the expulsion of 300,000 productive citizens, to germany, of all places! the lubovitzer, calls the 300,000 garbage. Alex ,of Miami, FL USA , likes the lubovitch method while not understanding that they are at the root of this evil problem. they are nice to their "fellow jews" only and to nobody else. Mr Kuss of Oregon, is a soul tester and decides whose soul is good. A bunch of lunatic racists out to destroy judaism and the state.

Ruth was a sincere convert, so his descendants are jewish, and also David Hamelech was related to Ruth through his father not his mother. just wanted to clarify that... to everyone else, "don´t worry, be jewish"!

1/ As you mean, the book of Ruth doesn't explicitely talk about any Beit Din process. But this does not prove it didn't happened because the writter could have found it useless to relate it. Even today, books narrating love stories don't talk that much about legal processes. 2/ David descends from Ruth through his father. So the jewishness of Ruth has no effect on his.

One thing is a fact with me: I'M A JEW, I feel myself to be a Jew, I always had this feeling without any Jewish education as a family heritage in the background. I KNOW my grandmother's family was Jewish (so I'm Jewish from my mother's side!) but they converted many decades ago to Christianism and documents were lost. I went to a Reform congregation nearly two years ago and I started to participate in their life. I keep Shabbat, I pray each day twice, I try to eat kosher/kasher even if it's not easy in Hungary to buy kosher food. I know I keep much more mitzvot in my life than others may do in the Reform stream... Sometimes I feel "Reform" doesn't satisfies my spiritual needs and I would like to do even more in order to become a recognized Jew. I'm liberal thinking and I know I couldn't live the Ortodox way of life. Israel is very close to my heart: I take all the opportunities to take part in the life of Hungarian Jews and I fight against anti-Semitism and anti-Israelism. I've been learning Hebrew since two years and I visited Israel. At the end of my first trip when I took the airplane back to Budapest, I felt I was crying. I realized I WAS in LOVE WITH ISRAEL! It is my spiritual home, it is the most important country in my life.: ERETZ SHELI! When I chose Judaism, I chose also Israel and the Jewish people. Do you think I merit to become a Jew and eventually an Israeli citizen if I take a decision to make aliyah in the future? How can other people judge me just because they are Ortodox or conservative?

"According to this, Ruth, and consequently David haMelech were not Jews." Sigh... The lack of Jewish education in this world amazes me everyday. Unfortunately, people take their little Jewish education and think they know what they are talking about. As said previously, Rus is from Dovid HaMelech's father's side. Also, the book of Rus is not about the conversion process. It said she converted, but it does not go touch HOW she converted. I suggested taking a few years off, learning through Shas, with a focus on Seder Nashim, and THEN you can say what Judaism says.

You seem misunderstood. You say you are a Jew by reform conversion although your family was Jewish before they converted to Christianity. I hate the break the news to you but reformed Jews cannot and never converted you, you were always Jewish and so was your family while they practiced Christianity. Judaism is not just a religion it is also who you are. You did not choose Judaism, you chose to dedicate your life closer to Hashem and your people.

Advice from a convert to a would be convert : Reform is a "diet" Judaism and will not fulfill your spiritual needs if you are really a lost soul. Reform can therefore be a good step on your way to slowly accept and live all the mitzvot. Go Orthodox. Keep learning and practising more an more mitzvot. When you will be ready, you will be accepted by a real Beit Din as a full Jew. Never forget that whatever the reform stream has to offer you, its conversions are not legal according to Halacha ! As a reminder, orthodox conversion courses are full with reform converts and kids of reform converts...

Thanks for your comments! I agree with you but if the documents of my ancestors can't be found now becaue they might have lost or burnt during Holocaust or before, I have to make the conversion process even if I'm a Jew. The question is only why should I make it according the Ortodox Halacha if I know, I'm not able to live an Ortodox life? Just in order ot be accepted by a Jewish minority (who are ortodox actually) !!! N. 38 from Canada! I think you misunderstood me: I didn't finished yet the Reform conversion process. I'm doing it since 1,5 years. It's not a 'diet' Judaism as you see it, though I personally pay much more attention to learn and follow mitzvot than other member may do. Despite of this I know I couldn't be Ortodox (taking Ortodox cloths, distancing myself completely from modern life.

1/ I didn't mean being offensive calling Reform Judaism a "diet" Judaism. But for me people learning the Torah and not applying it don't make any sense. I unfortunately still have to meet a religious reform Jew... But that is only my personal point of view. 2/ You are right to decide not going through an orthodox conversion if you don't feel commiting to respect all the mitzvot. 3/ You write you could not be an orthodox Jew because of "taking orthodox clothes" and "distancing yourself completely from modern life". That is not being orthodox but being ultra-orthodox ! You could also choose to become modern-orthodox... live your life according to halakha while wearing blue jeans and working in the city. 4/ As you say orthodox Jews are presently a minority. But please, look at the respective birth and intermarriage rates of the different jewish denominations. You will understand that reform Jews are quickly disappearing while orthodox ones are multiplying.

The question is only why should I make it according the Ortodox Halacha if I know, I'm not able to live an Ortodox life? Just in order ot be accepted by a Jewish minority (who are ortodox actually) !!! Like Ezra said you can still live an orthodox life wearing jeans. If you keep Shabbat and Kosher than you are obviously not part of the reformed movement either who do not keep these Mitzvot. If you once ate pig and you want to convert by reform Judaism and still eat pig than what did you convert. How can someone who does not keep Torah convert you acc. to the torah? If you convert through the reform, it is not accepted by the orthodox so to some people you would be considered Jewish and to others you won't. But if you convert through orthodox you are Jewish to everyone.

Ynet, you are BIASED. It's so clear to see. Point me to even a few lines of interview with any of the Orthodox rabbis who deal with the conversion? Or maybe say one of the leading rabbis of the generation? Rav Elyashiv? You present here a completely one-sided, largely emotionally-based argument... And one more thing... to become Jewish is never, and has never been, just some sort of STATUS; it's not just learning about some laws to be able to join some sort of special CLUB. I've mentioned before my friends from rural South Africa here... they're a non-Jewish subsistence farming family, and they left their religious Charismatic Christian lives about 6-10 years ago, as they were slowly drawn to the authentic Jewish (Orthodox, of course) lifestyle... they're making the most superhuman efforts in order to convert... it's taken them a long time to learn all they need to for the South African Beth Din's conversion requirements, and to travel up and down so often between their home and Port Elizabeth, and Johannesburg... they've completely changed their lifestlyes, changed their and their kids' names... they are truly an inspiration to me and to many others of the Jewish community here... And I asked the father/husband what drives him... he said they are searching for truth, and to be closer to G-d. And I believe him completely. You can see it in all that they do. Now, these wonderful people would not COMPLAIN about changing their lifestyle! They wouldn't COMPLAIN about having to change how they cook... because they WANT to live in the way of the Torah... it's not some inconvenience they have to put up with in order to be called 'Jews'... And that's one last thing. Judaism is an all-encompassing way of life, that touches absolutely every element of your life.. You never find the word 'religion' in the Torah; it only appears much later on in Tanach. Why is this? Surely Judaism is a religion? The answer: from the outside it may look like a religion, but from the inside it's really a way of life, that encompasses you and everything about you, entirely. It's not just things that you do and don't do. If you view it as just a lifestyle, just a different way of doing things, you're completely missing the point, and you haven't tasted the real 'soul' of life as a Jew... For that I'd recommend Chabad, maybe Carlebach, or Breslov, or some other type of Chassidism... they focus a lot on the heart & soul of Judaism...

Most Jews are not Orthodox, yet you demand that those who convert must be. Why? You say yourself that any jew who does not follow the Law is still a Jew as a member of a tribe, yet you reject as Jews those who want to practice Conservative or Reform Judaism, because their mother was not Jewish. it is worse than silly; it is cruel.

Why is it that somebody with a Jewish mother can ignore all Jewish laws, ignore Jewish culture and identify with the enemy and still be a Jew, while somebody with a Jewish father, who wishes to observe some Jewish laws and identifies culturally and nationally as a Jew is not? It is illogical. You complain about growing non-Jewish population when it is you who create it. Allow Reform and Conservative conversion and accept matrilineal descent. I ask a Lubavitch Rabbi why matrilineal descent in Judaism, originally a patriarchal society. After a bit of obfuscation he admitted that the real reason for matrilineal descent was created was to give Jewish legitimacy to children conceived to Jewish mother’s non-Jewish fathers as a result of rape at the time when the Jewish community was vulnerable. Judaism was very pragmatic then, it should apply the same kind of pragmatism now.

Not by the Israeli standards.

The way you feel, and what you are doing is a wonderfull thing. Remember and cherish the thought that Judaism is entirely internal and that ritual and ceremony are the communal aspects that are intended to bring Jews together as a family or tribe and share Torah and communal concerns. If sometimes you feel that Reform does not satisfy your spiritual needs, I suggest adding Jewish Meditation. It will go far in developing your spirituality. I also suggest study of Torah, and familiarity with Kabbalah. When it comes to meditation and Kabbalah, the Ultra-Orthodox have a good thing going. I would never begrudge them that. The Orthodox lifestyle is not necessary if you are not so inclined. Reform Judaism is a structure from which to guide you in your search for intimacy with G-D. It is designed not to constrain you in the externals, but to free you within the Jewish context, to come to know the G_D of Israel. Emphasis in Reform always returns to Torah, but in the spirit of the Law, not necessarily the letter of the Law, which has easily been misconstrued through time. Be happy and seek to strive and develope on your present path. Don't worry about what Orthodoxy thinks about your status as a Jew. They have adopted the job of always pointing the finger. You are a "REAL JEW". Orthodoxy is out of step and in the decendency. However there are points of practice that can be gleaned from their way that can be spiritually beneficial, and you must be alert to them. Let your HEART be your guide.

YES ! WHY ? Because the Rabbis want to be like Avraham.There was only one Avraham and he was a Tzadik ,a friend of The Lord G-d of Yisrael.Avraham was the Model of Justice and Equality in Judaism and for all the nations.The orthodox Rabbis are beating the righteous on their raw nerve and hearts.I have been reading the posting on this page for a fews days now.From the post I have read and been listening to the many complaints of the righteous converts, be it the roghteous gentiles and jews from various judaism. I seek Ynet to forward my request to the Chief Rabbinate Shlomo Amar, I want to communicate the injustice done to the righteous converts here and everywhere,.As such be, it know the Lord G-d of Yisrael is not the monopoli of the Orthodox Jews. I blame myself too. We have done injustice to the righteous converts to Orthodox Judaism. We forgot that, there was only ONE Avraham. The Rabbis must repent for the sins committed against these righteous gentiles and jews.T he Converstion System Has failed badly ! Shlomo Amar must excercise his judgement AT LEAST like AVRAHAM .

Is it only 613 commandments that make Judaism different from all the religions in the world? It seems to me that Judaism is just more of the same: work for salvation. I'm interested in Judaism, but why should I even think of converting when the "work" of other religions is easier. Where is the proof that the works in Judaism are different than the works in other religions?

Most people in this forum who approve of our actions do not present true Jewish values based on Torah. The spiritual garbage they talk about represents paganism at worst or avodazora at best. The true Judaism is not what your spiritual feelings are or what is in our hart; it is based on actions (mitzvos), not on your feelings. Living Jewish lifestyle means serving Hashem by performing mitzvoth (613, not all of them are practical today because we do not have Holy Temple, but they are all valid) and studying his Torah. The same Torah also outlines who is a Jew. A Jew is the one who posses a Jewish Neshama (Gdly soul). The way one acquires this Neshama is ether by birth from a Jewish mother or by going through kosher conversion process. Possessing the Neshama does not guaranty that one will follow Torah path. Unfortunately, today most Jews do not, thus wasting their life potential in serving Hashem. Conversely, no matter how good you feel about Jewishness, by not receiving Neshama directly from Hashem will not make you Jewish.

Calling Torah observant Jews an Orthodox is stupid and ignorant. These labels where created by Reformers and Conservatives. All Torah observant Jews, no matter how they look: fur hats, long coats, short coats, side locks, long beards, short beards, all have one in common: the same Torah and the same Hallocha. All these superficial differences are not part of Hallocha, but different traditions based on historical and geographical factors. If you sincerely want to become a Jews, you should to accept all 613 mitzvots in our hart during the conversion process and start keeping them according to our ability and maturity, adding more mitzvos over the period of time. Start with basics by keeping kosher, putting tephelin and observing Shabbos. The rest will come later. It is similar to an aspiring art student who appreciates a genuine art of his teachers (ultra orthodox), but can not paint on heir level yet. And stay away from Reformers and Conservatives. Instead of bringing you close to Yideshkait they will move you farther way from it. One of my Rabbi friends gave an interesting example: It is like standing on the train station platform and looking for the right train that will take to you destination. Being confused you jump on the first train that start moving thinking that it going where you need to go. But in reality this train is going to the opposite direction, taking you farther away from you desired destination. No wonder that so many young people from Reform and Conservative movements end up in Jews for Yshke.

It is not only 613 commandments that make Judaism different from all the religions in the world. The main difference is that these commandments are performed by the Jews. By performing these commandments Jewish People are serving Hashem. If the same commandments are performed by non-Jews it is not considered service to Hashem from his point of view. In fact some commandments like observing Shabbos is prohibited for non-Jews. If non-Jews want to server Hashem then they should performed 7 Noachide commandments that are outlined in the same Torah that outlines 613 commandments for the Jews. These commandments form propose of creation of the world. All the commandments deal with physical world and the reason behind these commandments is to release a Gdly spark hidden inside each physical object and return it back to Hashem. If a Jew performs one of 613 mitzvahs (a commandment) properly then the spark is released. If the same commandment is performed by non-Jews the spark is not released. On another hand, non-Jews server Hashem and releasing the same Gdly sparks by performing 7 (and multiple extensions of them) Noachide commandments.

the spark of Sinai and moving ahead to higher level of spirituality. You take the 7 first and the other 3 is of universal value it is there to observe and keep them. Keep moving forth, go forth, Your soul and Hashem will see you through.In the end it will all fall in the exact place.You will experience a calm state of mind in ONE special relationship. Dietery Law can elevated your soul,please observe. The friday sunset to sat sunset is very special.The high holiday , yu will get to experience yourself in the realm od the nation.Observe these the rest will come easily and natural. Be it known even the Jews have their limitations.Go Forth ! Choose Orthodox Judaism.you will know for yourself the journey.Nurture the Spark .

The program was flawed from its very beginning by the politicized Neiman Commission and the attempts of the Jewish Agency to placate diaspora Jewry. It is time to unlock the Orthodox hold on Jewish identity and return to the rules which governed Ruth, Osnat and Zipporah's "conversions" .... otherwise know as positive absorbtion with intent.

Okay, listen very carefully: conversion is not naturalization. Its a religious act, not a political one. As a result it is not the domain of the government, and can't be pushed by politicians. It has to be an act of honest conscience. That right there should tell you why government and politicians can't succeed at it. Why would you convert if all you wanted was a blue identity card? Nonsense.

by now, the systemof conversion is OUT and Bogus. After that amout of teachings and learning , and if they dont pass , someting is wrong, very wrong, with those who teach .I blame the teachers not the student ! The Teachers are bad, there is no need to beat the poor converts with : " the naturalization crap excuse" The fact that they are already in Israel is good enough to get the blue id. I dont think ,in the first place ,anyone would spend time in the orthodox conversion class to get the ID. Cut the crap it all BS ! The Orthodox rabbis ( not all ) are a bunch of control freak and enjoy castigating those Russian Jews. The same situation rules in the diaspora but in a diffrent way. The Rabbis have no say, On one hand , the rabbis may seems like a man who has the final say to decide on conversions. But that is not the case, It is the congregation that has the control because they are the paymasters of the learned rabbis. I supppose you all have not heard of Rabbis being placed in a most undiserable state to make decision against his heart and mind. Let me tell you all, the Orthodoxy is such a bogus. If I were the one to decide on these applications , I will only ask one question : HAVE THE MESSIAH ARRIVED ? YES /NO ! The Converts who want to practice Orthodox Judaism will know the answer ! That ALL. The point is, the Conversion System is very political and partisan. Internal and external politics governs.This I say, for I have seen the process. And the claims of abuse in thiis artical, of delay is a ill treatment by the conversion system is TRUE.Justice delayed id Justice denied. They deny many Avrahams and Ruth . The righteous converts are TRUE with their claims. Face the facts, we have to much of unfair judgements when it comes to conversion to Orthodox Judaism. I dont know about other branches, but we have been wicked enough to drive people away. I suppose this wickedness run in the vains of the orthodox Jews. It is so , no wonder we are Hated that much and frequently called RACIST! Look, at the Jews in Israel itself, look at the Rabbis , the Polititians, the Israeli Public, DO YOU HONESTLY THINK THEY ARE ORTHODOX JEWS ? Face the Facts they are HORRIBLE ORTHODOX JEWS. IF Rabbi Shlomo Amar want to keep pretending,as though the conversion system is good , he better join the Perverts of Justice ! Jews are called to DO JUSTICE ! So please dont beat the naturalisation and immigration reason into the cases of the genuine converts, here the russian jews.And it is not that there are no abusers of the due process of the conversions process, there are ! both the converts and the Rabbinate are both guilty !

I am Chabad. I had an Orthodox conversion. I am not considered a Jew by my own Chabad Rabbi for two reasons: 1) The Bet Din was not 'their' Bet Din. 2) I am not sufficiently Shomer Shabbos according to their own arbitrary and whimsical standard. I have sent 3 children to religious education. I myself have sat on the education boards of several (non Chabad) shuls. My spouse is 'fully' Jewish. And yet, and yet, unless and until I sell my home and impoverish myself in order to walk to shul then my own Rabbi is free to conclude that whatever rules don't apply to people who were born Jewish, must apply to me. Now when I hear that the Israeli Rabbinate is doing the same thing to Diaspora Orthodox as the Chabad does to me, I'm a little conflicted. Part of me says 'Serves you right you mamzers' and part of me is saddened by our own elitist self destruction.

LET ME REMIND ALL MY JEWISH BRETHEREN THAT OUR FATHER ABRAHAM WAS THE FIRST CONVERT PLEASE DO NOT TAUNT THE CONVERTS AS ITS SAYS IN THE HOLY TORAH "VE AHAVTEM ETH HA GEIR KI GEIRIM HEYITEM BE ERETEZ MITZRAYIM"

my fathers mother was jewish (however drummed out of temple for marrying a goy) and my father was jewish by blood tie to her (according to law) if I qualify for ayalah and if I'm a christian by faith, can i still become a israeli ctizen thereby? Please somebody send me an email at briux@yahoo.com in answer.