Jewish Scene  Uri Orbach
There’s more to life than Gemara
Uri Orbach
Published: 19.03.07, 21:53
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28 Talkbacks for this article
1. An interesting viewpoint which you did not originate
Bush ,   USA   (03.19.07)
Many great Rabbis of the past 100 years have spoken about it. They just did not say it the way you state it which is childish and derogatory. Maybe if you listened to Gemara in school more you would be speaking with a little bit more respect. Be careful G-d sees what you right.
2. i didnt enjoy gemara in hgih school - but you're wrong!
david ,   new haven ct   (03.19.07)
you can not be a real jew without gemara. of course you need the basics (tanach, mishnah,halacha) but you are a jewish illiterate without gemara. after hating it in high school, i starting reading it on my own as a daf yomi. all of jewish life is in there (to paraphrase ben bag bag)
3. Intelligent people enjoy Gemara and see the logic & beauty
David ,   Jerusalem   (03.19.07)
of it. Obviously, the writer does not fall in this category.
4. gemorah mill....
Michael ,   PA. USA   (03.19.07)
My sentiments exactly. I was almost completely turned off from Judaism in high school, because gemoroh was the only yardstick by which they categorized us. Nothing else mattered.
5. Respect & Love
sam ,   beit shemesh, israe   (03.19.07)
The love of Torah by reviewing and working through difficult passages of the sugya must also be reinforced from the home. How many times did Uri Orbach sit and learn with his father? My experience in learning Gemara in Yeshiva H.S. opened up a new world to me that has insured my friends and I, a tremendous attachment to Torah throughout our lives. Within the walls of Yeshiva we also absorbed Halacha, hashkafa, history, machshava etc. Not just the books that Uri mentioned. Unfortunately, the writer was not educated with the respect and commitment of Gemara learning that leads towards it's love. What I see here in the Israeli Yeshiva high schools is that parents convince their young boys to respect the Bagrut more than the Gemara. I'm sure that Rav Kook zt"l would have never agreed to minimize the learning of Gemara and replace it with even his books (nor the Chafetz Chaim). A student and teacher in Israel t
6. Different Souls, Different Needs
David ,   Israel   (03.19.07)
I went to a chabad yeshivah for balei teshuvot. We sat around learning chassidut, chumash, chassidut, halacha from the shulchan aruch harav, chassidut, and more hassidut. What I really wanted to learn was the gemara. Now I sit in a kollel after work and while everyone else is learning chumash and halacha what am I learning? That's right: gemara. The fact that you didn't like it doesn't mean there aren't those of us who do - and what's more, whether you like it or not, its the basis of Jewish literacy. Want to understand Rashi on Chumash? Gemara and Midrash. Want to understand the Bartenuero? Gemara. Want to understand the halacha? Gemara. And the list goes on...
7. The author is right
Maidel ,   NY, USA   (03.20.07)
I wholeheartedly agree with the writer. I remember my father saying that the Jewish education that his daughters received was far superior to that which his son received. We girls studied Hebrew language and grammar, Jewish history, dinim, and Mishnah, and had the opportunity to study Gemara (if we so wished). My brother studied Gemara for the whole morning and had English for the afternoon; other Hebrew/Jewish topics were covered for a few hours Sunday morning.
8. There is a day of rest for the people of God
m   (03.20.07)
This is interesting to me to read and understand, and it reminds me of Christians that study hard and go to schools to learn the Bible. And the whole thing becomes mans intellect and striving, and yet there is no entering into the 'rest' of God. We are told to read in an undertone the laws of God day and night , and it is likened to drawing up the 'waters' of life' God doesn't put any length of time we do this as long as it is done with discipline day and night. So we take in the knowledge of God and we christians also take in knowledge of the One he sent jesus Christ. We obey his commands and we receive his promises. But what we have is his Holy spirit that is in us teaching us and bringing to our minds his wonderful counsel for every situation we get into and when we call on his name for help.It is a joy to know God and his messiah and there is enjoyment in doing exactly what he tells us to do, with out adding a lot of impositions that come from mens wisdom but not Gods.as Ecclessistes states Besides these [Bible] to the making of many books there is no end and much devotion to them is wearisome to the soul' Every religion does it.
9. You read my mind
Jon ,   New York   (03.20.07)
Great article Mr. Orbach. I think people in the tallback are misreading Uri's words. In no way does Uri condone learning talmud in high schools with capable religous kids - rather it should be revisited in the more left leaning liberal orthodox schools where a solid majority of the student body is not religously observant. Should one of the few times Jewish kids may ever learn yiddishkeit in a organized fashion be spent on figuring out who said what about building a sukkah on a camels back ? Coming from a similar background, Mr. Orbach is just stating what we have all be thinking all along.
10. Gemara
Moshe ,   Brooklyn   (03.20.07)
Wonderfull artical and very true and to the point it should be on the fromt page of the jewish press though where it might be seen by those who make the decisions. However my frustrations with the monocromatic mindset of the "yeshiva", where I attended a well know and large yeshiva high school in Brooklyn, was the catlyst for me choosing to leave the "derech". This choice was singularly made because the brand of torah and judiasim being forced down my throat was: 'if you cant master gemara and you dont wear a black hat and jacket you are a goy'! I have since grown up as some 10years have gone by since i finished with yeshiva and returned to the orthodox life style but I would sooner send my own children to a "mixed" school like Yeshiva of Flatbush then subject them to the classic yeshiva high school.
11. We're not all Litvaks!
Zanveleh der Treger ,   Meah Shearim   (03.20.07)
Only in Litvish style yeshivas do they only look at Gemara. In Hungarian style/Chassidish yeshivas, they learn much more Halacha, directly from the Tur and Shulchan Aruch. Emphasis is also placed on davening, which in Litvish yeshivas is just rushed through.
12. Does a 'real jew' equate to idolotry
שילוה ,   ישראל   (03.20.07)
One cannot be a real jew without gemara, one cannot be a complete jew without jesus! It's all the same, idolotry. Replacement theology in either case not of the Torah. Will we ever learn? Probably not!
13. if gemara is jewish literacy..
johanna ,   tsfat   (03.20.07)
then why are girls taught gemara ? according to this way of thinking half the jewish population is illiterate.
14. I fully agree with the author
Daniel van Dalen ,   Jerusalem   (03.20.07)
This coming from a chareidi person. I completely agree. If a person learns works such as Derech Hashem, Chovos HaLevavos, Sefer Chassidim, Sefer Charedim, Likutei Amarim (Tanya), etc, then he will become a good Jew.
15. Dear Uri Orbach
moshe   (03.20.07)
Unfortunately you lack a fundemental jewish trait which one does not have to be religious to have: respect for our Rabbis
16. There’s more to life than Gemara
Trent Sutton   (03.20.07)
After reading this article, If I leaned toward conspiracy theories, I would believe that some Chareidi Institution, trying to make the fruits of the mizrachi system look back, had a chareidi writer pretend to be a person by the name of Uri Orbach who wrote a completely sad article about how his mizrachi educational system failed to give him a love of his chinnuch due to the inadequate philosphy of life - and inaedequate hashkafas hachaim- within which he was brought up. This conspiracy would be laid itself out in having the author- seemingly not someone with severe learning disabilities- clearly communicate a failed chinuch which didn't even let him adequately describe what it is that allows the chareidi world be so successful. In turn, others, needing to make adeicison for their children, would be drawn toward deciding in favor of sending their sons ( at least ) to the chareidi system yeshivos so they dont wind up writing incompetent- or just plain sad, articles, like this one.
17. #8-u idiot-u have no idea what is being
oritush   (03.20.07)
talked about in this article or in the talkbacks on here-just shut up and dont preach yo idiotic xstn crap on here-especially since u r totally ignorant of the subject being discussed!!! shmuk!!! Uri-i m a girl so its less relevant for me-but since i listen to u everyday on the radio(ahla show:)) i know what enourmous respect(and knowledge) u have when it comes to Jewish law and tradition-and u-being one of the funniest dudes in israel-if u were bored in a class..well...that says a lot for the teacher(and all of it negative). but even if i m a girl-i do agree that our culture is so vast and diverse in learning that more of it should be introduced earlier on(before going into army)
18. your right, but..
shai ,   miami, fl , usa   (03.20.07)
There are plenty of non-lithuanian chasidic yeshivas who spend about 70-85 percent of the day on gemara and the other 20-30 percent learning chasidut and the like. Chabad, for example learns chasidut and hour before prayer and an hour and a half at the end of the learning day in traditional yeshivas. There are other examples. These studies are geared toward understanding the innner depth and meaning of Torah as opposed the body of rule(gemara&Halacha)....
19. gemara
bear ,   zefat   (03.20.07)
I can tell from your "lament" that you are a product of Litvishe chinuch! It's good but it's not for everyone. May i suggest for the sake of diversity that you check out the chassidic derech, specifically Chabad. I think there you will find balance. Give it a try, you may be pleasantly surprised.
20. On the necessity of Gemara
Daniel Jackson ,   Boulder, CO   (03.20.07)
What a great article! The logic is tight; examples and analogies are first rate; I could follow the thread of exposition from the beginning to the end, despite a few digressions. Why, it sounds like a Gemara Seguia. NOW I know why I send my son to a Yeshiva to learn Gemara--why to be able to construct a solid piece of logic--even if the author is full of crap.
21. The way of the Gaon of Vilna is the proper Litvak way
Litvak ,   NY, USA   (03.20.07)
What does the towering Litvak, the holy Gaon, Rav Eliyohu b"R Shlomo Zalman, the GRA, aka the Vilna Gaon, say about this ? In his sefer Even Shleima and elsewhere he strongly comes out against the type of learning described and criticized by the author. He says that first one must fill themselves with mikra, mishna, gemara, etc., and only then to be oseik in pilpul chaveirim. See his works for more ideas and details. The other, distorted ways are a great danger. To a degree they are a modern invention. It's unfortunate that today 'Lita' has become associated with such a dangerous path, when 1) it was not universal, even in the old Lita, 2) it was actively opposed by some. Lita was not what some people imagine, a place where everyone learned in kollel forever. Most Litvaks were baalei batim and when they learned, they didn't learned Brisker chakiras all the time. There were organizations, such as chevra Shas, where the whole Talmud was studied, not just a few pages, as well as chevra Tehillim and other types of Torah societiesa nd study groups. In Volozhin, the whole Talmud was studied, not just a few select pages or sections. Litvaks can and do learn halocho too, though there is room for improvement there, I admit. Re davening - I protest comment # 11. A proper Lithuanian Yeshiva has a proper davening too, not overly rushed, while many Hassidic services daven very quickly. So let's not generalize and stereotype too much here.
22. For further reading see
Sarah ,   New York, NY   (03.20.07)
http://onthemainline.blogspot.com/2007/03/theres-more-to-life-than-gemara.html
23. Studying gemara is the highlight of my day!
marcus ,   brooklyn, ny   (03.21.07)
Studying gemara is the highlight of my day! Right now my chavrusah and I are studying mesechtas Shabbos and it is the most dynamic and exilarating part of my day. I am 47 years old and my wife and I are blessed with five children. Two of our boys are studying gemarah and love every minute of it! They have wonderful teachers and never complain that they find the subject matter boring. P.S. Ever wonder why people sing when then learn gemarah?
24. bad teaching
dov ,   jerusalem   (03.21.07)
sounds to me that uri had some apathetic teachers. real education teaches students not just to replay but to initiate real thought process in ones brain and the gemara is the absolute tool for that. you wasted your youth uri .....in self pity!
25. gemorrah
gary ,   jerusalem   (03.21.07)
I can sympathize that Uri Orbach never learned how to learn as does happen with so many of society and gemorrah is not the culprit. Teachers give over info but don't necessarily teach us to learn for ouselves. To condemn the Yeshiva system because of his handicap is not productive !
26.  There's more to life than Gemara
peter ,   forest hills ny usa   (03.21.07)
Three cheers for Orbach. He has hit the problem of modern yeshivot in Israel and the US as well. When I was in yeshiva high school in Brooklyn, NY, I attended a "modern" high school. We were taught more than just Gemara, I studied Chumash, Nevi'im, Lashon, Sifrut, Jewish History and the like. We were given a broad range of Jewish subjects and we learned in Ivrit B'Ivrit. Unfortunatly, today most elementry Jewish Day school students cannot converse or write in Hebrew. When they get to high school the vast majority of their Judaic Studies is Gemara - and this is not just in the "right wing" yeshivot. Even if an American high school student spends a post-high school year in Israel that he may still not get the needed exposure to Nevi'im and K'tuvim, Jewish Philosophy, etc. The girls get a better Jewish education in the US than boys do. It is time for some daring educators to bring about a return to what true Jewish education was.
27. Start from Bereshis
Ben Klein ,   Brooklyn, America   (03.22.07)
Reading through your story could not of had come at a more eerie time. I actually just hung up with a friend of mine, who I was explaining that I was always bothered that in Yeshiva's today the standard is always Gemara and nothing else. While I am an Orthodox Jew (and very proud of it) and was raised in a beautiful orthodox home, along with an exstensive yeshiva background. It is only now that I realize that while I covered a vast majority of the Gemara world. I have never properly focused myself on Mishna, Tanach and Mussar, because everything in the Yeshiva world is strictly focused on Gemara, which is very important as it does sharpen your mind and train you to think out of the box. But at the same time no school that I know of ever focuses on the fundamentals of which Gemara is based on, such as Mishna and Tanach. How many Ponovech Bochurim could say that while they knocked off Shas at age 27, that they have also properly focused themselves on Tanach?
28. Orbach is pro Torah
mordechai ,   jerusalem   (03.23.07)
While I don't neccessarily agree witrh everything Uri Orbach wrote, the lack of derech eretz of some of the respondants who claim to be torah scholars gives weight to his point. Of course, the real scholarsdon't have time for talkbacks.
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