Opinion  Aviad Kleinberg
Who is being subversive?
Aviad Kleinberg
Published: 25.05.07, 00:00
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15 Talkbacks for this article
1. Bull
michael ben raphael ,   tel aviv   (05.25.07)
the author of this articule is so disturbed by democracy being attacked, that he fails to see the minimum love for Israel. My people, i tell you the truth. Israel is headed for very dangerous times. Unite and love each other. Secular, love the religious, right wing, love the left, safardi love eshkanasi. Unite my people, we dont have much time.
2. democracy because i said so
zaq ,   ranaana   (05.25.07)
kol ha-kavod to the author for telling the emperor he has no clothes mr diskins comments are not surprising given the history of previous governments.....from ben gurion to rabin....from the sad chapter of the disappearence of the yemenite children to abba eban's famous words after the 1977 elections "it can't be it must be wrong"....... mr diskins arrogence as a civil servant should be taken in the context of true democratic principles....you are what you eat....we have people like him in positions of power because we are too lazy to do the hard work of democracy....he is our punishment, he is what we deserve....as a society we don't get it accountability........if and when we decide to hold all of our civil servants accountable maybe then we will begin to see a difference
3. Democracy everywhere is done for !
redkmike ,   tel aviv and london   (05.25.07)
If France’s democracy remains unchanged for another 15 years then it will become an Islamic country governed by Sharia. Same goes for Holland and Belgium and maybe Spain. The world has changed and democracies must change. We now have Islam doing its utmost to take over the free world. It is using every country's democracy to overthrow the host country. Look at democracy in Israel. The State is undermined by Arab M.K.s openly traveling to foreign countries during times of war, returning and not being arrested - Wasel Taha and Jamal Zahalka. We have organizations like Machsom Watch an B'Tselem openly working against the IDF. We have foreigners arriving at check points wearing IDF uniforms and nothing is done in the name of some dead sacred cow called democracy. Get real! Countries must start to do whatever is necessary to protect themselves from the enemy within - Mike
4. Right wing illegal in Israel
Eliyahu ,   Israel   (05.25.07)
Let's be honest. The Shin- Bet's "Jewish" Division is used exclusively to monitor and subdue the right -wing. Kach is illegal. Which left wing party has that status? How many left wing extremists sit in administrative detention? Let's call a spade a spade. In Israel's darkest dungeon, you can always find a minyan of shomer shabbos Jews. And not a single apikoros. No matter how much they side with arabs to incite, burn fields, or steal land.
5. SHIN BET SAVES LIVES EVERYDAY ! KLEINBERG IS A SHAME
(05.25.07)
6. Exactly whose rights is he harming?
Danny   (05.25.07)
Our Arab MKs are free to visit enemy countries and openly make common cause with them against Israel. Our PM - rightly - is criticised wide and far. Our MKs are regularly investigated. You are able to write anti-Israeli crap - are you scared about a knock in the middle of the night? People like Pappe are not only allowed to write anti-Israeli lies and make a global campaign for a boycott and it not only not arrested, not only not discriminated against but is given precious tenure in one of Israel's few universities. So rather than putting "appropriate" and "proportionate" in quotes and implying these statements aren't true, maybe he could show with some facts rather than insinuation? Or is he applying for Vyshinski's old job?
7. shin bet
Yisraeli   (05.25.07)
whilst I understand and applaud a good functioning shin bet. Im not so sure about where it has come to today. Like #4 comments I also had in mind theyre so called "Jewish" department and what of theyre history of agent provocteurs planted amongst the religious right? whose sole purpose is to make any opposition to leftist policy look evil. Now I have my doubts about shin bet and whom they really serve, Im no longer sure its for the Jewish people and theyre safety rather on behalf of the elitists and theyre leftist co-horts who will do absolutely anything to maintain theyre rule at any cost. Bottom line I no longer trust any of our institutions, not the police, certainly not the government most certainly not the justic system, not the hiearchy of the IDF, so whos left to trust the shin bet? I dont think so.
8. Is relieveing oneself on a Post-Zionist "academic" leftist?
Barbara Shapira ,   Tel Aviv   (05.25.07)
Should that be a prohibited form of expression? Stop the Tel Aviv University Jihad against Israel!
9. History taught us nothing
T.C. ,   NY   (05.25.07)
You read #3 response and your blood runs cold, did history teach us nothing? Will people continue negotiating their fragile state of freedom for protection against so-called “enemies of the nation”?
10. The author equates "the Jewish and democratic nature
Tracy W   (05.25.07)
of the State of Israel" with "ideologies". Typical relativism. Well, if that were so, you may as well give up on the whole idea of Israel, turn out the lights, and hand over the keys to the Arabs. The Jewish nature of Israel IS Israel. It's the very reason why the country exists at all. And democracy is how its people wish to govern themselves. Those are values worth fighting for, they are worth any sacrifice. State surveillance is part of the defense of the country. These are times of war in Israel. It's a country under threat of complete disappearance. Set a clear accountability system to actions by the Shin Bet, but by all means, let them do their job.
11. sir, you are subversive
izzy d   (05.26.07)
Since when has Israel agreed to be ruled by humanist ideology? There is no separation of church and state and thus your petty argument is rendered meaningless. Perhaps if you stopped wishing and stealing European thought speak and focused on what makes our country great your perverse desire to turn MY county into a European outpost will abate eventually.
12. SHABAK does what it wants when it wants
LG ,   Miami   (05.26.07)
The Shin Bet is very much an Autonomous rogue Government body. They use their power to do what they want when it pleases them. I had a SHABAK agent get involved in doing dirty work for my ex- wife in bearing false wittness against me while using agency resources. Nice huh ? They have a free hand to do what they please no checks exist.
13. Grow up Kleinberg, no right is absolute
David ,   Rehovot   (05.27.07)
He doesn't say he'll break the law. He says that the rights to free speech and privacy aren't absolute. As they has never been, what's the problem? All rights must balance. If the free speech indicates that the person could be either plotting or actively working in ways that endanger the State, that means the person should be investigated. Please, name me one nation in which that's not true.
14. security and democracy
sawsan ,   jerusalem   (05.27.07)
sometimes the democracy of a one will hit the security of the all ,, but sure the non democracy of the state [ the all ] will hit the security of the one in evry time and in evry situation ,,,,, from that democratic state is better than the democracy of the one ,,as the last must be controled by rules or by the one silence
15. Legalized subversion possible?
H.H.M ,   Jerusalem, Israel   (05.27.07)
A strange occurrence by any orderly run parliamentary government to have a letter of this kind, interpretation of existing laws being issued by the Chief of The Shin Bet. As the declared in the article “…..In a letter relayed to Attorney General Menachem Mazuz :….. with the contents coordinated with Mazuz in advance………” makes it contents less palatable! - Strange that the Attorney General allegedly agreed to its essence, being the only available law authority unless the High Court or the parliament step in and change his instruction. Shin Bet’s position is an inscrutable one under the prevailing political / military and internal / foreign affairs conditions. This security organization enjoys an extensive freedom of functional action. Here exists a “grey security zone” which can fall back upon the Palestinian Mandatory emergency regulations from World War II which actually curtail the individual rights to a very large extent. The Knesset in a routine way renews these special security regulations for a period of ½ - 1 year, even the World War II ended close to 60 years ago. Let us start to look for a juridical / legal acceptable definition i.e. of “State of Israel as Jewish and Democratic State.” Here the first obstacle exist as the Jewish state with its approx 20% non Jewish minority is what ? Further a real democracy has an absolute division between executive and all other branches of government. Do we have this and can we have this under the prevailing circumstances / conditions? Next we stumble over Israeli basic laws enacted concerning the personal status, rights etc which are limited already by the dual sovereignty of the personal status, between State recognized religious laws and ordinary basic state laws. The rights of the individual are granted but are subject to restrictions on the security can be curtailed as per example of this letter. Even the duties of all Israeli citizens are not legally equal. - Here one could go one indefinitely giving factual examples which to some extent are were inherited from a colonial non democratic mandatory government. Considering the political present structure making lawful changes in this somewhat absurd situation created the need for the Attorney General to step in order to regulate and direct the this functions of the Shin Bet being factual the only able function / person to stipulate a workable interpretation. When internal circumstances within the Knesset will enable real well weighted laws to be voted for the necessary final changes in AG’s instruction could be made or before this by a case to case High Court judgment. Here the position / decisions of the Attorney General counter balanced by eventual High Court decisions become an immediate necessity. It is not acceptable that a government organization like Shin Bet can retain this amount of freedom of action / interpretation and without any real lawful / public control. – A clearing question is to be asked namely who serves whom? The citizen serves the state or opposite the state exists to serve its citizens for public needs.
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