Opinion
A little common sense
Uri Orbach
Published: 07.08.07, 14:02
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32 Talkbacks for this article
1. "Common Sense"
Lenny ,   Israel   (08.07.07)
Good thinking! If right wing soldiers do not have to kick out settler squatters, then left wing soldiers should not have to guard settlers in the territories.
2. insubordination
Bill Landau ,   Mexico City   (08.07.07)
There are such things called "rght wing troops". In a Democracy ALL troops are subject of the State. The army is by definition apolitical in a Democracy. Otherewise there could also be aberrations as left wing troops. The days of Palmach and Lechi are long gone!!!
3. Soldiers of nation like the immune system of body
m   (08.07.07)
It is there to protect the 'body'. When the immune system turns on its own body it is called a cancer.Soldiers exist to protect 'all' citizens or just some?What conflict does this set up in a soldier when he invades his own peoples. If this is a matter of 'Law" it should be dealt with by police in a professional way.Through courts.
4. Ason!
Lee ,   Arlington VA   (08.07.07)
Uri Orbach's attitude will lead ot the destruction of the IDF. The military is not a democracy. Soldiers can have views on anything they want, but an order is an order, unless it's patently illegal. Using Orbach's analysis, the IDF should exempt all left-wingers from having to set foot in the territories, let alone defend the extremists in Hebron.
5. Uri, you completely miss the point
Debbie ,   Seattle   (08.07.07)
on your column, but almost find it when you write, as an afterthought, on your next to last paragraph: "This is indeed unpleasant and inappropriate and perhaps even undemocratic..." That is the main point, Uri, that the eviction of Jews is undemocratic. Not only that, but illegal. Nobody should be expelled from his home, much less to make room for the enemy. The IDF should not be used to expell Jews. Their purpose is to protect Jews from their enemies. Just separating the IDF Jews with a conscience from those who do not care is not the solution. The problem lies with the very idea of expelling Jews from their land.
6. One country, on army
Talula ,   Israel   (08.07.07)
A soldier is a soldier is a soldier of the IDF. They cannot pick and choose what orders to carry out. There isn't a secular army and a religious one. They ALL serve together. This article is bordering on the absurd and the author should be committed for writing such garbage.
7. Duty
Paul ,   London England   (08.07.07)
These "soldiers" have failed in their duty. They are a disgrace and should have received exemplary sentences for their treachery, not a mere tap on the wrist.
8. Its better to go to jail than to uproot your fellow jew
Lemmings Hotline ,   sd usa   (08.07.07)
9. refusing orders
aline ,   Kfar Saba   (08.07.07)
If my son were in the army, I would advise him to refuse these orders and sit in jail for a month. I would be proud of him for doing it. The job of the army is to defend us from our enemies, not to throw honest citizens out of their homes.
10. 100% correct
(08.07.07)
These "refusenicks" are strong young men who would die for the state of Israel and the Jewish People. They are not driven by the idiologies of the state but rather the Jewish people. As olmert said in the resent past "I am Jewish First, then I am Israeli."(or was it Peres?) Anyway, these soldiers are Jews first. They are also the first to join the combat units and go on arrestes in Jenin so the discos in Tel Aviv are safe. We should be giving these soldiers praise for keeping to their Ideology. It seems to me that the army put these soldiers in this situation as a test and to make examples. It wont work though. The idiologies of a religious Jew is far stonger then 30 days in Jail.
11. what is the connection between common sense and this govt?
aaron ,   ra'anana   (08.07.07)
12. Should read army shouldn't be forcing Jews to evacuate Jews!
Nannette ,   London   (08.07.07)
There's nothing right wing about being Jewish, as YNet is insinuating.
13. What about illegal Arab settlements? No evacuees there...
Nannette ,   London   (08.07.07)
Israel IS discriminating in favour of the 10,000 or so ILLEGAL Arab settlements in Israel, but will only take action and use FORCE against JEWS!
14. It is against my principles
Sagi ,   Israel   (08.07.07)
to clean out toilets, especially field toilets, to stick my bear hands down blocked drains. I absolutely abhor doing these things. I hate being caught in an enemy artillary barrage for a few hours without being able to move, it really makes me scared and has a bad pscychological effect on me. My mind is affected when I have to confront the enemy face to face and kill him. It makes me sick to my stomach when I have to take pows into custody and treat them like animals instead of human beings. You know what, my superiors excersised "common sense" and told me to do all these things and I excersised "common sense" and did them. Get the message Mr. Orbach ?
15. A Little common sense
Ariel Yochanan ,   London UK   (08.07.07)
With teenagers dodging the draft, and the difficulties getting Haredi to serve, deploying right of centre soldiers to support or enable forced evacuations, is wonderful way to attract people to the ranks. If such soldiers see it as their religious duty to fight to protect the land of Israel, then surely the Army can understand the sentiment of these soldiers if they feel they are being asked to do just the opposite, in contravention to their religious or ideological conviction. I suppose that even a Spartan soldier would object if he were ordered to dismantle Sparta. In situations like this, the Army should turn its own blind ideological eye to the telescope and cut these guys some slack.
16. Not Common Sense
EM ,   Ra'anana   (08.07.07)
What rubbish! By your thinking, then the army shouldn't send extreme left wing people to the West Bank? If these soldiers apply their personal agenda to the army...then they should not be there. The army has enough problems then to start classifing who shoud be assisgned to what, based on the possibility that they might refuse the task.
17. to # 16 - Alyah in Raanana or Beit Shemesh
E.S. ,   Montreal, Canada   (08.07.07)
But definitly not in Hebron! Welcome to the post-zionist israeli society. I like my alyah well-organized, with nefesh be nefesh, lots of dollars, a job waiting for me, commuting to TA or Yerushalaim, my shule and my rabbi, a pale copy of the one I had in Boston, NY, Philly or any cities in the US. Oh - and for these evicted jews in Hebron? Well, I just don't give a damn. After all, they could have settled in peacefull Raanana, playing base-ball or in sunny beit shemesh, no? Silly they
18. #14 you are wrong for treating them like animals.
Jabadini ,   Israel   (08.07.07)
Its against your principles then you are a hypocrite. While you must follow orders treating someone like an animal is your choice and you should be ashamed. You will never understand these Jews who are willing to fight and die for what they believe in. I see you are only in the army cos you have to not cos you want to that is where the difference is.
19. # 13 Nannette
Sagi ,   Israel   (08.07.07)
Could you please explain to me what exactly constitutes an illigal Arab settlement in Israel. I know Israel, every centimeter from north to south and east to west, I have yet to come accross an illegal Arab settlement. It is time you people stopped bandying about stupid rhetoric and act in a responsible manner according to the law of the land which is not the law of Moses or Abraham or God.
20. Hello Israelis what happened to Jews and reality
Jabadini ,   Jerusalem, Israel   (08.07.07)
The reality is the homes were owned by Jews. There are thousands of Illegal Pal buildings throughout the west bank and Jerusalem, thousands of Beduin illegal buildings in the Negev. Instead of going after the real illegals they attack their brothers kicking them out of a home returned to them with Jewish blood fighting against a real enemy. As for army refusal. The job of Soldiers is to protect its citizens and using them to fulfill left wing political strategies is not just wrong and illegal but also evil. Barak is doing this to gain votes in the election, Olmert is doing this to stay in power and Perez i am sure is involved just because he is a Jew Hater.
21. #16 have you ever been to Hebron, Ariel, Gush Eztion etc.
Jabadini ,   Jerusalem, Israel   (08.07.07)
By the way there are hardly any if not no EXTREME left wing in the west bank or even in Kravi. They will not end up there because they will refuse to fight in the first place whether by lying in psychological or physical areas. 40% of people not entering the army are secular with most of them coming from the left wing these are the people destroying the country but at least the are willing to attack their own people, no!!
22. Would segregated units make sense?
C McCoy ,   Canada   (08.07.07)
Ok, being realistic, anyone with both religion and a conscience would indeed refuse. Would it make sense to aim at units segregated due to level of religion or not?
23. What a Joke Through them in Jail
Gary ,   USA   (08.07.07)
Can't have an Army like that...
24. To #19 Oh boy, will you ever catch it now!!!!
M. Hartley ,   Atlanta, US   (08.07.07)
25. NO NO NO
Jerry ,   Eilat   (08.07.07)
If we use this standard then any group can ask to be excused from carrying out orders. How would Orbach feel if his children were on a settlement under attack by Arabs and the secular soldiers assigned there refused to save them. Should the officer go through his unit asking for Party membership cards or measuring the size and color of the kippot?? This type of justification for assigning troops is disgusting!!
26. Illegal Orders
Avi   (08.07.07)
A soldier is NOT permitted to carry out an illegal order, even if from a general, himself. These orders, though court sanctioned are in defiance or the law and are politically motivated. A corrupt Court and a corrupt Political body should NOT be followed by troops or police. Unfortunately, when in the miltary, you are thought to behave as a brainless robot, at least while in that "mode" of being a soldier - brainwashing and compartmentalization of the psyche - pure and simple. The ultimate responsibility resides with the commanders who know better and should have the intestinal fortitude and indeed have the responsibility to tell THEIR commanders - "NO!" The leadership in the Medina is NOT only with the politicians, but with the IDF and the entire "system" as well. These expulsions are ILLEGAL, DESPITE what the Supreme Court and the Knesset say. If these people in charge do not change course, I think there will be revolution and they'll be hanging from the gallows - if there is even a State anymore.
27. #19 i think you misunderstood #13
Jabadini ,   Jerusalem, Israel   (08.07.07)
i could be wrong but i think that she was talking about the tens of thousands of Illegal Arab BUILDINGS not settlements. This constitutes illegal arab settlement. Also there are thousands of Illegal Arabs currently in Israel. Funny how you bring up acting according to the law of the land. Maybe you should speak to our corrupt leaders first including Olmert and Peres who are currently running every part of the country they can. You cant expect the regular person on the street to keep the laws if the leaders don't.
28. # 21
EM ,   Ra'anana   (08.07.07)
Where on EARTH are you getting your statistics? It is absolutely pointless to dignify your comments with a reply.
29. 3,000 troops in Hevron
Dr. David ,   Netanya, Israel   (08.07.07)
While the 3,000 troops were evicting two Jewish families from Jewish-owned land, two Israeli children were killed by rockets fired from Gaza. Does anyone see a connection?
30. #28 40% draft dodgers are secular
Jabadini ,   Jerusalem, Israel   (08.07.07)
Last week, the IDF published statistics of the percentage of draft-age young men who report for compulsory military duty. According to the numbers, one quarter of eligible male draftees and 40% of eligible female draftees do not join the service in practice. Most of the women do not serve in the military for religious reasons, with many performing National Service instead. 11% of draft-age citizens are from the Hareidi-religious sector, which generally promotes deferring or exempting its sons from military service in order to study full-time in yeshivas (rabbincal seminaries). 40% of those who avoid military service are from the non-religious sector, according to Knesset Member Ran Cohen of the far-left Meretz party. However, according to Kibbutz Movement organizer Yoel Maharshak, 91% of kibbutz youth (mostly completely secular, but including some religious kibbutz members) serve in the IDF and 80% serve in combat units. "It is the most important value there is," Maharshak declared. Broken down by major cities in Israel, according to IDF statistics, the percentage of eligible young men serving in the army is as follows: Modi'in - 89%; Kfar Sava - 86%; Rishon LeTzion - 86%; Be'er Sheva - 82%; Ra'anana - 81%; Haifa - 77%; Netanya - Defense Minister Ehud Barak also had harsh words for military draft-dodgers. 76%; Ramleh - 76%; Bat Yam - 73%; Tel Aviv - 70%; Jerusalem - 44%; and Bnei Brak - 15%. Among the Tel Aviv draftees, 36% joined combat units, as opposed to 60% of the Modi'in recruits. The most popular combat brigade is Golani, followed by Nachal, Kfir and Givati. http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/123251 Other newspapers reported this but unable to find the links accept haaretz which only wrote the first paragraph. Check Jpost. There was also also other articles a while ago which talked about how many secular, especially left wing from the Centre of the country, are choosing to be Jobnikim instead of kravi. f you don't believe the rest of what i wrote try looking it up, it was reported in the past two years. Do this instead of calling me a liar.
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