Opinion
Democracy or terror?
Prof Yechiam Weitz
Published: 13.08.07, 23:11
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35 Talkbacks for this article
1. Ben Gurion wouldn't have approved of the expulsion of Jews
David   (08.13.07)
2. Great Piece.
Moshe   (08.13.07)
The author is correct. Letting the extreme right (Religious Settlers), the Haredim and the Israeli Arabs constantly spit in the face of the Israeli Government must stop. The weakness of the Israeli gov't towards these violent, misguided sectors only encourages them to act out.
3. Ben-Gurion, respected even by his enemies
papa jay   (08.14.07)
Israel has departed far from leaders such as him. A great confrontation is brewing between those on the extreme right and the government of the state. Ironically, the state was the facilitator of the settler movement which continued to grow unchecked until it has become very clear that they have a conflicting agenda with that of the government’s outlook on the Arab inhabitants the state rules. Where will Israel be once those on the extreme right have control? Perhaps expanding the borders and calling for a “greater Israel”
4. What nonsense!
Marvls ,   NY   (08.14.07)
Prof. Weitz's hyperbole is breathtaking! One of the first and foremost priciples of democracy is the right to protest your government's policies and decisions. Clamping down on such protests is one of the hallmarks of authoritarianism. Apparently he cannot tolerate it if protests stem from the nationalist or religious camp.
5. the settlers were the walls
jlynch ,   USA   (08.13.07)
Physical and spiritual. PS the end of the matter. Without walls yet with peace as far a gog thinks a evil thought. Peace is to the beholder and so is walls from a-z. Were arrows hitting the settlers(walls) and still are. Without walls means without true support for those walls. The settlers are without effective support , so a wall cannot stand.
6. #2: the author is not referring to haredim..
abdullah ,   ashkenaz   (08.14.07)
so why involve them.
7. thank you "Yechiam"
Travis Thompson ,   USA   (08.14.07)
Thank you dear elitist main stream academic for sharing your opinion. Since you put Gush Emunim in quotes I will put your "name" in quotes as well. Thank you "Yechiam" from the "University of Haifa" for telling the readers what's "right" and what's "wrong".
8. Marvin #4 is right. Ben Gurion did some questionable things
Steve ,   US   (08.14.07)
I'm not so sure Mr. ben Gurion was not some-what of an authoritarian himself; a man who would not easily brook expressions of dissent or political opposition. He sought to crush his political enemies; sometimes literally crush them as was the case with the Altalena. There is more to this sad episode than we are reading in this opinion piece. There was also the issue of ben Gurion's "selectivity" of Jewish immigrants over Ze'ev Jabotinsky's pleas for mass immigration. David ben Gurion declared the "season" on the Irgun. Irgunists were hunted down and turned over to the British authorities. Some were flogged and hung by the British. Former Prime Minister Ariel Sharon took part in some of these hunts though in his autobiography (Warrior) he appeared to have some misgivings. David ben Gurion's hatred for his political enemies was so pronounced, he would not allow Ze'ev Jabotinsky's remains to be buried in Israel. This was accomplished only after ben Gurion left office. It seems to me what the professor may be calling for is a kind of a police state that will crush any and all political dissent on the right.
9. quasi democracy
eddie ,   London UK   (08.14.07)
there are many flaws in the analyisis by Weitz. The Israeli govt isnt always a democracy. Hence, Barak didnt allow for parliamentary elections when he was defeated by Sharon, hence maintaining his number of seats in the Knesset. The other trick employed by many eg rabin's oslo govt, was to promise one thing to the voter, then do the opposite, ie talk to the PLO. This is the illusion of democracy, but in reality is autocracy.
10. Why not tell the whole truth about Altalena?
m ,   toronto   (08.14.07)
You forgot one small item. In the story of Altalena, not only did they bomb the ship, but snipers took off anyone who jumped from the burning ship in hope to get Begin. Why not tell the whole truth YNET?
11. This left-wing extremist is very ugly
Alex ,   LA, USA   (08.14.07)
The let-wingers that attack soldiers should be killed? The left-wingers who attacked Jews during the 1st Lebanon war should be killed? Rabin killed several Jews swimming in the waters. that was correct? The author is very dengerous. Now he justifies killing of Jews whom he does not likes. Will he kill Arabs as well? He is assuming that HE is majority but Olmert is supported by 3%-5% of people. Is this 35 must be somehow killed like Rabin did, for common good?
12. Stop using the word "settler"
Smooth Stone   (08.14.07)
It is disconcerting to read comments from some Jews here who deny that Jews are indigenous to Judea, and that Jews have no right to live in Hebron, the oldest Jewish city in history. Instead, I am reading comments that help to enable the redefinition of Israeli Jews as colonizers and foreign settlers with no legitimate right to the land. Whether or not one calls them settlers, the Israelis living in the West Bank and Hebron do not pose either a moral or a pragmatic problem. Their communities are natural outcomes of Israel’s control for almost forty years of areas that are integral to its current defensibility and/or historical heritage. And since the word "settler" is loaded with negative connotations of “intruder,” it would be best to cease applying it to Israelis who live legitimately in parts of the Land of Israel that are part of the state of Israel, and whose ultimate disposition remains open. Does it really make sense to call an Israeli who moves from a hillside in Galilee to an apartment block in Ariel a “settler”? Please drop the immoral paradigm insinuating that they must be forced from their homes. Smooth Stone http://smoothstone.blogspot.com with partial credit to P. David Hornik
13. Good on you...
Gliker ,   Texas/Israel   (08.14.07)
Prof Yechiam Weitz , good for saying what needs to be clearly spelled out for the settlement movement: You are weakening the Demcracy of the State of Israel. The well being of the State ofo Israel comes before the wants of the minority. The majority of Israel wants an end to Settler minority politics in the Knesset.
14. Why is no one concerned about the really 'unrully' minority?
Daniel ,   Formerly Israel   (08.14.07)
Israeli Arabs assist in, plan, and sometimes carry out political and even military attacks against the State of Israel. Even if as you say the settlers are hurting Israel (though I would challenge you to prove it) their malice and certainly their violence toward Israel is not even comprable to that of Israeli Arabs, and yet we are giving this much more hostile minority special assistance while trying to crush the other much less hostile minority. (consider also that ardently zionist Jews are being called a minority in the state of Israel; am I the only one who sees something wrong with this picture?
15. Ben gurion
Gregory Huntington ,   Salem, mass.   (08.14.07)
The author of the article is duplicitous in championing democracy when it suits him and at the same time ignoring democaratic principles. The dictator Sharon conceived of the Disengagement when the Attorney General launched a crimininal investigation into Sharon's and his sons finances. Sharon lost every vote on the issue and had the brazen cowardice to fire members of the Cabinet who opposed him.Tjis brand of democracy would appeal to the likes of Stalin Castro and Sadham Hussein and other Leftists who worship them.
16. So this fellow is a professor
Prof. Eli   (08.14.07)
and heads the Land of Israel department at a university no less. What is your definition of the Land of Israel if you ever has one pray tell.Also is'nt there an inconsistency between your fervent urging for obedience to democratically elected government while calling the Justice Minister "the great destroyer of our country's institutions"?
17. Ben Gurion was tyring to assasinate Begin
Mordechai   (08.14.07)
Ben Gurions attempted assasination of Menachem begin was no different than the assasination of Rabin. Trying to silence a political opponent someone with violence. This professor isn't concerned with insubordination. If he was then he would have written years ago condemning the left for calling for Jews to refuse service in the IDF to protest the "occupation" or his fellow professors calling the IDF a Judeo Nazi Army because of the "occupation" The professor here just wishes to ban free speech by those he disagrees with. He wants the state to use violence, even to kill, those he disagrees with. Israelis should ask are we a Jewish democracy, if so we have to defend the rights of all Jews to speak, even those we disagree with.
18. Is this proffesor being indicted for incitement?
LEE ,   NY, USA   (08.14.07)
19. Terror and the Fist...
aharon ,   Ramat Aviv   (08.14.07)
The Left has always ruled through terror and the fist, whether it was the Altalena when Ben-Gurion approved bringing in the ship, but then couldnt pass up the oppurtunity to murder Begin, or Rabbi Kahane zt'l when for the first time there was an actual threat to the power of the elites, to amona when Jewish Nationalists protested surrenders of Jewish land to goyim.
20. CORRUPTION STILL EXISTS!!!
al mann ,   Jerusalem, Israel   (08.14.07)
The object of a representative democracy is to involve a smaller group of people making decisions that should be made by the general population. There is no representatives of people but only a failing ideology voted on by the citizens. As a citizen, no one represents me as an individual. No one represents my neighborhood and its interests. I have no way to communicate my views and no one to whom I can send my ideas since, no one represents me. Democracy was designed to allow people to express themselves but here the idea of self-expression is called insubordination and terror. This is corruption of individual democratic rights. If one talks against the government, the individual threat shakes the illusion of stability. Perhaps people are kept in poverty so they would be too busy finding food than think about an uprising. The government works against the people but because of clever machinations can not rid itself of this corruption. We will never learn! We don't want to learn! We are used to this and as long as there is food on the table who cares about anything?
21. What a chutzpah
freejay ,   Israel   (08.14.07)
To praise what Ben GUrion did is disgusting.....He murdered jews!!!!!!!!!!!! Just like what Olmert would do too! NO EXCUSE!!!! He preaches democracy yet doesnt want our government to practise it. Why is Olmert still in power with a 3% popularity rating?..... because of Democracy? Why wasnt Rabin elected as president by the people?........because of Democracy? Why cant we have freedom of speech? ......because of Democracy? Why can Olmert make his own investigation into the war he bungled?,,,, because of Democracy? Why is everything being privatised with the contracts going out to the same old friends of Olmert?...........because of Democracy? Why is the poor getting poorer and the rich richer?.....democracy? ABSOLUTELY NO DEMOCRACY I CAN SEE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
22. Would u rather lose Israel due 2 insistance of "keeping"
"Yesha"?   (08.14.07)
23. More on Father Sun and his adherents
Ilan ,   Ariel   (08.14.07)
Crazy Stalinists
24. 'the sacred cannon"
yaakov ,   Jerusalem   (08.14.07)
this guy is a professor?, interesting, he is a professor of leftist-communist bs, same as ben gurion, rabin, and all responsible for murdering Jews while they were jumping off the ship to escape the "sacred cannon", his take of history comes from karl-marxs pamphlets, listen leftists--- jewish history did not start in 1882,This article contains more distortions then a lsd trip....
25. Ben-Gurion also said...
GUH ,   Russia   (08.14.07)
to his cabinet: “We must use terror, assassination, intimidation, land confiscation, and the cutting of all social services to rid the Galilee of its Arab population.” Most/ All Israeli prime ministers are responsible for a vicious crime; this could only serve as evidence of the 1948 mass expulsion.
26. #23-by the way
GUH ,   Russia   (08.14.07)
Not that I like Stalin or anything, but didn't his troops liberate Auschwitz and overrun Belzec, Sobibor and Treblinka? Wasn't Stalin the second country to recognize your state? Take all this into consideration and then speak.
27. #23
yaakov ,   Jerusalem   (08.14.07)
To link stalin and russian troops is a real joke, since most were fighting for revenge and the "motherland" not Stalin, there was no such thing as the "expulsion" in 1948, only arab -leftist propaganda which you seem to be a student of
28. Begin vs.Ben Gurion
JackGarbuz ,   Queens, NY, USA   (08.14.07)
I believe that if Menachem Begin had been the leader of the Jewish Agency instead of leftist Ben Gurion, Israel would have taken the "Arab hump," or "West Bank" as it came to be called after it was illegally annexed to Jordan, back in 1949. In fact, King Abdullah, in a later interview,expressed surprise that the Jewish army didn't do so, as once the Arab armies were broken, there was no one to stop them. The whole business would have been settled decades ago. And Israel wouldn't have become a 'schnorrer state" by relying on German reparations to build itself up. South Korea didn't rely on reparations after the Korean war. Israel would have been better off if Begin rather than Ben Gurion had been the helmsman at the time.
29. Stalin thought Israel would become a communist state.
JackGarbuz ,   Queens, NY, USA   (08.14.07)
It may have been the US that first recognized Israel, but it was the USSR that sent the arms (from Czechoslovakia) that saved the embattled new state. It was actually Gromyko who was the first to suggest the possibility of a Jewish state at the UN. Stalin was bitterly disapponted when Israel did not become his communist bastion in the British dominated ME, and then turned strongly against his native Jews in the USSR when they warmly received Golda Meir. He probably would have destroyed them all if he hadn't died (or maybe killed?) in 1953.
30. Once and for all: Define "Democracy"
A Yid ,   USA   (08.14.07)
The article is disgraceful, but I really need a clear explanation of the term "demo-kratya" It is a concept worshiped in a country bent out of shape over religious "coercion", so there must be a way of explaining what this golden calf is. Would the election of Hamas in Gaza be a good example? How about my knowing my congressmen, senators, state assemblymen, state senators, city council members, etc. who *ALL* represent *ME*, and know that doing a backroom deal means not getting elected again? They HAVE TO fulfill their campaign promises, or they're out in the next election. Sounds a bit more representative of the concept of democracy than the Bolshevik system in place - vote for the party. And then to form a coalition the election platform is abandoned.... Yeah, right. "Democracy". HA!
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