did you ever hear of the hebron massacre? it happened in 1929

and especially Josh (21). The Jerusualem Summit report looks interesting, and I will read it in detail. I am glad that people are thinking about this, because much strategic thinking is necessary. My initial take on it is that it requires a lot of cooperation from Arab countries, something we are not likely to get easily. Also, just because a survey says that 1/3 of a collection of Palestinians would like to leave, does not mean it will occur. Ilan, (#22), it is not a scare tactic to be concerned about a situation in which Jews will constitue less than 65% of the population (if they annex the West Bank). It is just common sense to come up with feasible plans to deal with this, or else you are only sowing the seeds for horrendous trouble later. I am not doubting the moral right of Israel to annex this territority. Also, if Israel annexes the W. Bank (and especially if Israel expels the Palestinians) the country will face some punishing economic boycotts from a morally corrupt world. This is why we need massive Diaspora Jewish investment in the country. Also with such investment, young Jews around the world will move to Israel with the prospect of a good standard of living. This will then help the demographic situation. It is my dream to help build a new city of 100,000 in the Negev, that utilizes Israel's amazing water resources and renewable energy industries and technologies. To answer your question, Ilan, my Ph.D. is in Systems Engineering (Operations Research), and I am a statistical forecaster. I would like to stay in touch with some of you, so if you want to e-mail me, my e-mail is jbonami39@aol.com

"zionist ideology is territorial"? How you work that one out? Israel withdrew to the mm from South Lebanon - you see "resistance" ending there? Nope, they simply fabricated a reason to keep fighting. What about Gaza? Stop fighting there? Nope. The fact is that Israel has ALWAYS been willing to make territorial compromises for peace, it is just the arabs keep coming up with more excuses for keeping the fight going. As for "inflaming fanaticisms" care to mention one that is caused by Israel?

General Ya'alon's assessment is brilliant and a Must Read by Bush, Rice, Olmert, Blair and policymakers in America, Israel and Europe. In fact, the leaders of the Free World need to know this. Ya'alon is right on target on the issues. Those who have been brainwashed by the occupation crap of Islamist-Jihadists need to know the truth. And the truth is Israel and the rest of the Free World are confronting the menaces and attacks of Islamist-Jihadism. Islamist-Jihadists are driven by their religious teachings that they have to crusade their Jihadism to the whole world, that is, subduing, dominating and islamizing non-Islamist countries. They have been doing this since their emergence in the Arabian Desert in the 7th century. Hence, leaders in Israel and the Free World must rid themselves of this Islamist-Jihadist occupation crap. The fact is it is the Islamist-Jihadists that have been occupying Israel's Biblical and Historic Homeland. And they continue to deny Israel's right to their Historic Homeland. They have tried repeatedly the past 60 years to wipe out Israel. They continue to fool and manipulate the world with their occupation crap. They failed to wipe out Israel through wars. Now, they are manipulating the world to pressure Israel into giving more of its tiny GOD-given liberated Historic homeland to them. It is time the Free World stops being fooled and manipulated by the Islamist-Jihadists. It is time the Free World unites with and supports Israel in confronting and defeating the dark forces and ideology of Islamist-Jihadism.

Clear cut article, very enlightening, but who is listening? Surely not Holmert and his click...When I see the "politicians" Israel has now, I too want to cry. Bogi, what will it take for you to "fight your way back" and lead this country? THEY NEED YOU NOW!!!

years old (about) and Arabs resisted it from the pre-independence era. So don't lecture to nobody about ignorance. Try learn somthing about the Zionist movement erected in eastern Europe, planning to restart the state of Israel.

to Danny: you don't seem to have read my talkback attentively enough. I'm talking about fundamental flaws of Zionism which permeate everything done in its name, and not about some circumstancial deeds or exceptions thereof at certain points in place and time.

Johann, there is so much wrong with your 'analysis', that I lack the time to answer in full. Instead, I will ask you one question: At what point during the last 2000 years since the Jews were forcibly exiled from their native homeland 'Palestine' did they lose their right to return?

Glad to see you can't back your claims up with any facts.

The Jewish Brigade was led by formerly exiled underground leaders. There was no Israel, but the conflict really is a bit over 100 years old--the Christian, Moslem and, yes, Jewish Palestinians resented the newcomers in the land, and some Arab underground was formed, forcing reciprical force by the newcomers. Leaders of the Jewish underground were invited out of exile during WWII--seasoned commanders, they did a good job.

I strongly identify with the contribution of Jews to Western emanicpatory thought and scientific research. Thus, as a specialist studying man and his individual and social behaviour, past and present, particularly the place and functioning of ideologies, I have come to the conclusion that the Zionist ideology doesn’t withstand sober analytical thinking and that it is totally contrary to emanicpatory thought, as far as the affected Arab inhabitants of Palestine are concerned. From the outset, in its name everything has been done, openly or secretely, to bully them into exile or submission. Emotionnally I understand Jewish identification with Zionism and I’m not blind to all the bungling on the Arab side, but the hatred sowed in the name of Zionism will not go away and I am terribly fearful for the future of Jews living in Israel.

As far I can tell you have written drivel in #45 with no actual facts to back it up. Zionism has "done everything to bully them in exile"? Well with the exception of the 1948 WAR, Zionism has been co-temporous with an INCREASE in the Arab population. There was massive net immigration of Arabs pre-1948. There has been massive population growth of arabs in under Israeli control - Zionism must surely be the only "expulsionary" ideology were the number of people in it's land who were "bullied into exile" goes up geometrically. Surely if Zionism was "expulsionary" then the number of arabs under Israeli control would go down not up? Surely if Zionism was about grabbing as much land as possible, the amount under Israeli control would up rather than be a third of what it was three decades ago. So with your "sober" and "analytic" thinking can you think of one tiny, itsy-bitsy fact to back up your claims?

Adherents of ideologies (political, philophical, religious et. al.) are believers who become blind for those parts of realitiy not in agreement with their ideology. It's no use giving them facts. Their thinking, feeling, perceiving and acting automatically function according to the principle: "Don't confuse me with facts now that I'v made up my mind!" You will keep refusing to see what questionable dynamism the Zionist ideology has started in the ME and where it will lead.

You have repeatedly refused to back any of your comments with even an assertation other than Zionism is inherently expansionist and expulsionist. I have stated facts that contradict your assertation. All you have done is repeat your assertation, you haven't bothered to engage with the facts or even to try and substantiate your stance. I don't see any reason to believe this is due to anything other than at some level you know what you are saying is utter BS. YOU refuse to give a SINGLE example of "questionable dynamism", a SINGLE argument of why Zionism should be considered "expulsionist" and how you reconcile this with the fact that MORE not LESS arabs leave under Israeli rule every year. You simply assert your "expertise" and that there is no point arguing as apparently I am blind to - as yet unspoken - "facts". So once and for all can we assume when asked if you can back up your claims then once we cut through your verbiage what you are actually saying is NOOOOOO?

but here are some: Israel all along has systematically humiliated her Arab neighbours, sowing deadly hatred. Big parts of the land of Israel of today was in one way or another taken away from Arabs. They are denied the right of return to their villages and farmland. The Arab population grows due to her high birth rate, in the territories inspite of Israel making live as miserable as possible, in order to make them want to emigrate, in Israel inspite of democracy in many respects being a fake for them (property rights, family reunification, harassment at airport, by police, administration, etc.). Sharon, forced by the Americans to talk of occupied territories and of the possibility of a future Palestinian state, announced his policy to grab as much Arab land with as few Arabs as possible before any such development.

Israel has "systematically" humiliated her neighbours? By winning wars that they start? Was the USSR "humiliating" Nazi Germany in 1945? Israel fought a war in 1947-1948, one it did not want to fight. It met with most of the key arab leaders beforehand - Husseini, Abdullah, Kawakuji - to try and avoid war but they were determine to fight. We won they lost and the vast majority ran away. Here and there there were expulsions - many people in strategic locations such as Ramle and Lod - but the vast, overwhelming majority left of their own accord. They have no "right" of return. Just like my family has no "right" to go back to Iraq - a country in which we really did live in for thousands of years as opposed to fake Palestinian claims. ALL countries grow due to their birthrates. If Israel's sole purpose is to cause Arabs to emigrate, they aren't doing a terribly good job as hardly any are. The US was talking about Palestinian states back in the 70s long before Sharon was a politician let alone a minister let alone Prime Minister. PS If you bother to read some history you'll Sharon was pushed into his withdrawal from Gaza by ISRAELI pressure as there was virtually no US pressure at the time, something that was commented on at the time. It isn't that it is useless giving "arguments" rather your "arguments" are useless and rather obviously false. No wonder you are ashamed of them.

If you are a true peace lover you must not give any credibility to the Arab humiliations BS since this victimist rethoric is used to promote jihad. Israel is not humiliating Arabs, however Arabs and European anti-Semites are humiliating Jews by defaming them and plotting together to exterminate most of them.

had NOT been created ! The Hebron massacre was just one of many riots between the settler jews and the native arabs.

What is 100 years old - possibly more - is the conflict between the Zionist colonization movement and the native population of Palestinian Arabs. The Zionist colonization movement does NOT equate the Israeli state in its modern form ! However, I do believe that Israeli state is an *offshoot* of the Zionist colonization movement, hence its continuing problems with the Palestinian Arabs. "100 years war between Israeli-Palestinians" is shoving nuances under the carpet for the sake of rhetoric.

Not to say I don't believe them at all. Reading how Israel was treasoned by brits,who ,for example,banned the possesion of arms to Jews, by the time of the brit.mandate,but didn't make the same ban to arabs,allowing,for example, the massacres of Hevron and Hadassah by looking to that all without lifting one finger... Reading how they sent back boats full of fugitives Jews to die in Germany... Reading that by the "Sinai Campain" in 1956,after Israel (with britain and france)achieved so much,was forced to give all back under the promisse of US that Israel would have its right of free navigation assured on the Straits of Tiran and that UN would control gaza,but instead, within days ,it was treasoned and the canals were never opened to Israel and the egiptians took over gaza... I am not a expert in Israel's history at all,I am just saying what I have been reading . I wonder why proper historitians are not called to actively refresh the memory of our "leaders" ,to remind them how many times Israel was let on its own and how many times was treasoned by these brits ,frenchs and americans and others. Yes we need to be diplomatic,but lets remenber that the whole world only feared and respected Israel when it won the miraculous 1967 war. I guess it is this faithfull and honest attitute of Israel fighting for its sovereignity and obvious right to live that should prevail in everything. We must respect those who respect us.Those who not,should be treated with a very moral and ethic attitute of firmness and distance,and when not possible ,with a very firm attitute in the behalf of our own interests. After all people only respect power,and in our case must be the moral power which carries the truth!

Jews lived continuously for thousands of years in Hebron until 1929. They are indisputably the natives there and never left. The Olim went to other parts of what is now Israel as they were secular not religious.

In 1929 Israel was already determined as a homeland to Jews by the League of the Nations. You should read an history book!

Thanks for putting a deep reaching honest appraisal from a honest understanding general. His voice should be heard much more ofter.

Keren, You truly are repeating what other people put in your mouth. "Israel" refers to the political entity as it exists today, and it gained definitive form in 1947-48 as a consequence of the UN plan for the partition of Palestine. Your statement that goes "In 1929 Israel was already ...." is simply nonsense. Absolutely nowhere and at no time did the League of Nations announced that a separate Jewish state of Israel was already in existence. That burden fell on the United Nations in a *later* and *distinct* process in 1947-48. You can think of it as the difference between a bright distance education undergrad who has a tentative medical school offer and a *licensed practising physician*. You and the historians *you* prefer might pretend its ok for this undergrad to treat patient, but it would actually be a ridiculous and dangerous notion. Not to mention illegal : you go to jail for quackery. AND you NEVER become a DOCTOR !. Likewise with your views on "Israel in 1929".

I guess you should inform yourself betterly,not me. Jews have been living in Israel -Hevron inclusivly-since more than3000 years. Many left,many remained. By the end of the 19th century,due to progroms in Europe,a number of Jews started the process of return. They bought lands from the Otomans and legally restarted to rebuild their comunities. Jews from Yemen started the same return by about the same period. When the Jews started working their BOUGHT lands,arabs from countries around started aprouching due to opportunities Jews were giving,and due to opportunities ottomans were giving too. When arabs started seeing the progress of Jews and their regathering,they started creating troubles. There were troubles in Tel Hai,where one of our leaders was shot dead-Trumpeldor,and in many other places. The League of the Nations determined to the now Brits Mandate,that the portion of land that is know the whole Israel ,inclusively the territories,should be settled by Jews and arbs. Arabs didn't accept that,and started a policy of non cooperation with Jews. The diplomatic process kept on culminating in another partition in 1947. Or do you think in 1947 a simple miracle ocurred from the nothing? Such an ignorance of yours! I am not an historitian,but I try to inform myself properly. Do the same with honesty!