Jewish Scene
Poll: 29% believe Jewish studies at schools 'catastrophic'
Kobi Nahshoni
Published: 02.09.07, 10:33
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1. Judaism is a civilisation ...
Terry ,   Eilat, Israel   (09.02.07)
And as such, should be studied not just as religion but in an interdisciplinary manner comprising history, sociology, comparative religion, law, & philosophy. Any qualified person, religious or secular, should teach - hopefully, without too much of an ideological bias. Jewish education is indeed catastrophic & this is the result of our dysfunctional political system which treats the Education Ministry as "political spoils" rather than choosing a competant professional. Witness our current totally unfit minister, Yuli Tamir, who is just a political hack with an ideological agenda.
2. The first requirement for the teachers...
Keren ,   Israel-SP   (09.02.07)
...should be their love and commitment to Israel and the Jewish People. With this in mind and good training ,the teachers can transmit in a lively manner the same they feel The children must understand from where they came ,our history,our strugles,our achievments,our general treasure from all points of view. The Jewish history is amazinly rich and challeging for the creative minds.It makes us reflect very deeply and improve always. This american way(I think it is american)of teaching,using tests whith crosses and impersonalized ways ,should be substituted by more old fashion ways of teaching which are more warm and commited . The use of television should be restricted too. When people will see how their minds improve without this evilish instrument,they will not want it never more. The habit of reading and reflecting should return to the lives of the people. Television robs a precious time of people,and it is very bad the passive way people receive the selected info given by televion. The exciment of searching by one's self what to learn and which interests are more important to him or her,is very important in the development of inteligency.
3. #1
Logic ,   Israel   (09.02.07)
Yuli Tamir is actually one of the least clownish and most serious people in this entire Knesset, regardless of her ideological agenda.
4. To #3
Jew ,   Jerusalem   (09.02.07)
Yes, she is definitely one of the most serious people in the entire Knesset when it comes to trying to tear down the Jewish basics and ideals of this country and make a mockery of the Jewish people (and thus of G-d) in front of the entire world. Perhaps in the future she'll wake up and realize she's a self-hating Jew trying to through all the Jews down the abyss with herself. But meanwhile...most of us very much so prefer a new, proud, Jewish, education minister.
5. Religion and school
M. Hartley ,   Atlanta, US   (09.02.07)
How do you teach religion to a class with children from different religious backgrounds? Why not take religion out of public schools and pursue that on one's own time and depending on one's belief? The Protestants over here have their Sunday School, the Catholics have catechism classes and the Jewish kids go to their synagogues for religious instructions. I don't know what the deal is with the Snake Handlers. Maybe they congregate at the zoo, in watermelon patches or along creek banks where rattlers and copperheads like to hang out. I won't tell them that I have those snakes and a few timber rattlers behind my house. They might all show up at the same time and I'd have a three-way war on my hands between the Jehovah's Witnesses, the Mormons and the Snake Handlers. I could sell tickets to the Unitarians, so they could teach their kids what religion is not supposed to look like, but that might get the Muslims up the street into the mix.... Naw, forget about selling tickets. I'll just watch the general free-for-all from the deck with a nice cup of coffee and put my money on the snakes.
6. hartley-again you are speaking out of context
Keren ,   Israel-SP   (09.02.07)
Israel is a Jewish country,didn't you notice yet? Go back to pray to the ashes you keep in your house. You will be doing a better job than insisting in change Jews to fit your hate.You are too obscure to opinate on we. Go,go,go..
7. To #6
M. Hartley ,   Atlanta, US   (09.02.07)
Why do you insist on repetitiously and ad nauseam trying to prove that you're an idiot? Trust me! I believe you. But, alas, you'll do it again and again.
8. #5 Uhhh, Ms. Hartley
Kyle ,   Southpark, CO, USA   (09.03.07)
Israel is supposed to be a JEWISH state. So therefore every the secular schools have something called "Da'at Yehudit" ("Jewish Knowledge") as part of their curriculum. It's like, the national history. I don't understand why you post in this forum anyway. You're not Jewish, you're not an Evangelican Christian. What dog do you have in this hunt? Why do you give a shit about Israel?
9. Duhhh to # 8
M. Hartley ,   Atlanta, US   (09.03.07)
Well, the US is supposed to be a Christian country, and I'd be the first one to scream off my head, if Jews had to sit in any public school and had "Christian history" crammed down their throats. American history is fine. If you want to learn Christian history, go to the magic kingdom of your choice. There is obviously disagreement with respect to the details as to the Jewish Knowledge being taught in Israeli schools or there wouldn't be articles like this. Add to that the different "degrees" of Judaism, and how would there ever be a concensus as to what should and shouldn't be taught and/or by whom? In light of there being a segment of the citizenry who doesn't care about Judaism, at all. then why waste their or a teachers' time? I'm just being curious. As to your question why I post here, let me ask you why you're not in Israel. One question is as irrelevant if not as dumb as the other. Since you say that you don't understand why I post in Ynet, I doubt that you'd understand that I read Al Jazeera, the Gulf News, Le Monde and die Berliner Tageszeitung, too. Maybe I like to see different "slants" on the same thing or maybe I don't want my mind to get stuck in some rut. I've read the Old and the New Testament often enough, have tried to get a feel for all 613 mitzvot, took a half-hearted stab at the Book of Mormon, and when I feel a little depressed and want a real good laugh, I flip through the Koran. Maybe my dogs like to hunt in a lot of places or maybe I just like to read. I certainly didn't know that I had to be Jewish or some Evangelical Christian to express an opinion here or anywhere else. For what it's worth and for all I care, you can read L'Osservatore Romano, the National Enquirer, The Ladies Home Journal, Playboy, or whatever else floats your boat. I promise, I won't wonder for one minute why you give or don't give a flying flip about what's in either about anything or anybody. Anything else you don't understand?
10. Kyle #8
Keren ,   Israel-SP   (09.03.07)
It is because she wishes to catch a rich Jew to get married.I have heard this many times from goyim's mouths like hers. Poor one,she believes she can. Let her get iluded and keep needing to rob the milk of neighbors' doors because her husband was a failure,according to herself,and could not bring enough money home for the basic necessities. After all ,a failured man has behind him a failured women. Now,she prays his ashes by table bed before going to sleep. uhhhhhhhhhhhhhh!
11. #9- Ms. Hartley... Read the Bill of Rights
(09.03.07)
The US is not a Christian country, nor was it ever "supposed" to be. Any person who happened to stumble upon the first sentence in the Bill of Rights would come to that conclusion... Wait, then again... wasn't it "y'all" who decided the Bill of Rights wasn't worth the paper it was written on and decided to go to war to prove the point?
12. 9# M.Hartley, you are wrong
Judah ,   Golan Heights,ISRAEL   (09.03.07)
First of all I applaud the fact that you are a weLl read person interested in a variety of world views. Yet I disagree with you that Jewish heritage should not be taught in the Jewish schools. Should the Jewish children in the Golan not learn about their ancestors who lived in the Golan in places such asGamala and ancient Kastrin? Should the Jewish children in the Golan not learn about the Talmudic heritage in ancient Kastrin and of the slaughter of the Jews in Gamla by the Romans soldiers? Or do you believe the children should only look at Kastrin as a place where they can go eat at Burger Ranch and at Gamla as a great place to observe the huge vultures flying over the cliffs?
13. To #11
M. Hartley ,   Atlanta, US   (09.03.07)
What it says and what it is, obviously, can be two different things, ditto for what you want it to be and what it is. At least, it doesn't give some majority the right to arbitrarily overlord it over the minorities and start throwing rocks. Considering that almost 20% of the population is not Jewish, maybe that's something Israel is in the process of learning.
14. To #12
M. Hartley ,   Atlanta, US   (09.03.07)
It goes without saying that history should be taught in any school, especially as respects one's country. When you, however, mix history with religion, things have a tendency to go awry, especially when you have citizens who may not subscribe to that particular religion or have their rights short-changed by a majority who sets itself up as "more special" than the minority. Isn't that just about the same thing a few other people are doing and that we used to do? It didn't work too well for us, either. I'm not any fonder of the New Testament than I am of the old one, but I will concede that "give to god what's god's and to ceasar what's ceasar's" was a good piece of advice. But then again, I don't belong to any religion, and I do see things from that angle. Having some early, pretty awful memories of the consequences of state-sponsored "tribal/ethnic/racial" superiority BS, I want no part of any of it, because it always ends up as "us" versus "them." I find it just a bit bizarre that you have a situation where one group of people, based on what I perceive to be ancient religious rights, goes around building settlements, while another group of the same population, based on something else, goes around and tears down settlements. There is a disconnect somewhere. Most of all, I cannot conceive that sort of thing being the intent of an almighty, omniscient god, regardless of who insists that he supposedly "dictated" - be that directly or through angels - whatever to whomever. When someone makes other people's lives miserable by virtue of religion, it's bad enough. When you do it to yourself, at least to me, that's hard to understand. (And now I have to run.)
15. M.Hartley's comments a surprise
Suncountry ,   U.S.   (09.03.07)
M. Hartley - The founding fathers established and fought for the U.S. in order to have a country for all, not just Christians. Their families had left coersion behind in Europe. No doubt it is a Christian country with 90+% self identifying as Christian. But it isn't "supposed" to be such. Read it from George Washington's own pen: http://www.tourosynagogue.org/GWLetter1.php We have a 6th and an 8th grade Israeli houseguest right now and they are sharing tales of school. It sounds like the school days are very short, which would easily leave time for an "after school" (or I guess it would be "after lunch") program for Jewish studies. If you make it interesting and fun, you could go a long way with it (and send what you come up with to the diaspora for us to try also).
16. #13 No ,hartley ,again you are wrong.
Keren ,   Israel-SP   (09.03.07)
The Israel's process of learning is ultimately opposite of your wishful thinking:the 20 per cent of non Jewish population will have to aknowledge where they live in and adapt ,if they want to stay,not the opposite ,haters like you wish. We are living just a phase in the hands of a non very smart Education Ministry,but it is It is temporary. Ah!Read the conclusion of the poll too.It doesn't state the same as your "bright " conclusion,hartley.
17. M. Hartley makes a good point
LEE ,   NY, USA   (09.03.07)
This is what Kahane, z.l., was warning us about. If the country wants to insure its character as a Jewish State, it is absurd to give voting rights to those that are not Jewish. He warned that this segment of the population will grow to dangerous proportions and will harm our internal decision process. Why should an Arab want to learn to sing the Hatikva anthem in his school? Why should he sing about the "jewish soul", "the hope of 2000 years", etc... Its absurd to expect a non-Jew to rally behind such an anthem or such a heritage. The tragic result: A minority of the radical left retains its power by placating this non-Jewish sector who will never vote for parties who seek to strengthen the state that they don't believe represents them. This was how the disengagement came about, with the support of the Arab parties. And now, our precious Jewish Heritage will continue to be diluted by that radical left and by their support from the "Israeli"-Arabs and other non-Jews in the land. Time to revoke their citizenship, grant them basic resident rights (no voting rights) and take back the Jewish character of this State.
18. To #15
M. Hartley ,   Atlanta, US   (09.03.07)
Actually, the first settlers fled from persecution for their religion with every intention to continue their own brand in the colonies. The main reason for establishing this country didn’t have all that much to do with religion. The “colonies” had simply gotten a little tired of “taxation without representation.” The Bill of Rights, originally drafted for the State of Virginia and mostly adopted to keep the federal government out of the business of the individual States, the Salem witch trials, Le grand Derangement of the Acadians from Canada in 1755 and the rights stemming from the French Revolution, weren’t lost on the founding fathers. Considering that 15 of the signers of the Declaration of Independence were Freemasons, the Bill of Rights is an amazing document. Although the US is, de jure, a country without religion, de facto it is very much Christian, and I should have clarified what I meant by "the US is a Christian country." In view of the fact that religion isn't taught in public schools, but that you have Jews, Christians and whoever else very capable of quoting chapters and verses of their respective religions, the private methods by which they're being taught seem to be very effective without having X # of people hacked off and ready to fight for having a majority cramming something down their throats that they don't believe or to which they have no connection.
19. To #17
M. Hartley ,   Atlanta, US   (09.03.07)
It is my opinion - and I've been off the mark more often than I care to remember - that a big mistake of some sort was made in 1947, when non-Jews were granted Israeli citizenshipl for no reason other than where they happened to live at that time. It brought with it seeds of dissention that seem to create more and bigger messes as time goes by. You are right that one can't expect a resentful segment of one's polulation to ever feel very patriotic or connected, except for reasons of temporary convenience or expediency. When you consider, too, that this particular "segment" has closer emotional ties to people who want to destroy you than they do to the country of which they are citizens, sooner or later, one way or the other, the wheels will come off the whole thing. Israel will, at some point, have to clean house in a drastic way or there will never be internal peace. To quote Abe Lincoln again: A house divided against itself cannot stand. Maybe Israel should be a theocracy guided by democratic principles for its Jewish only population. What I see as a democrcy with theocratic principles to which everybody is subject simply doesn't appear to work too well. Please tell me where I'm wrong without going off on some pie in the sky tangent.
20. #18 Try reading the Plymouth Rock Charter & the Manga Carter
Will ,   usa   (09.03.07)
21. Dear Will (#20)
M. Hartley ,   Atlanta, US   (09.04.07)
Is that the famous "Manga" by Jimmy Carter, Billy Carter or that real special one by Amy Carter? Ohhhh, you must have meant the Magna Carta. I'd suggest that you learn English, but since "Magna Carta" is Latin, heaven forbid, you should be expected to know how to spell it. What Plymouth Rock Charter? Are you speaking of the one that leaves from the Greyhound bus station or the one by Amtrak?
22. #21 Yeah I blew it on the spelling on the Carta!!!
Will ,   usa   (09.04.07)
The Plymouth Rock Charter details how much the settlers wanted to worship God freely in this country. They dedicated the land that the soles of their feet tread upon to God.
23. #19- You're not wrong. Your statement is 100% right!
LEE ,   NY, USA   (09.04.07)
The 1947 mistake you've mentioned is the cause for much of the problems we have today. Judaism (the theos) espouses many ideas that are akin to democracy and individual rights. Therefore, democracy is a real attraction for much of the population that is not particularly observant or religious. A "Jewish Democratic" State is somewhat of an oxymoron. Being democratic, necessarily opens the option to cancel the "Jewish" character of the state out of the equation. The only way the state can really retain its Jewish character (and its security) is, at a minimum, by doing exactly what you mentioned. It must be a theocracy employing democratic principles among its own people (i.e. Jewish citizens). Any other people that happen to be territorially located in this state, can live there if they jive with that state's law. This is dealt with in the Torah wherein there may be a foreign non-jewish resident living in the land. The reason this is not achieved, I believe, is because those, within our own people, that vehemently oppose such a state, fear it out of ignorance of the Torah. They believe that such a state is comparable to Iran, Saudi Arabia, and the like. Of course, this is not the case and I can honestly argue that Torah Law is much more compassionate then our current law. It is by far a more advanced law and is nothing to be compared with Islamic law. If only our own people would read their own Torah and study it with intellectual honesty, then things would start to brighten up in this region and around the globe. I'll stop here before I go off on that tangent you were talking of.
24. #19- You're not wrong at all.
LEE ,   NY, USA   (09.04.07)
Your comments on the mistake of 1947 were spot on. That mistake has caused us much grief since the state's inception. The problem is that maintaining a Jewish Democracy is somewhat of an oxymoron. Being democratic necessitates the possibility of the voter eventually causing a negation of the Jewish character of the state. Democracy, with its individual rights, is justifiably very attractive, especially to the Jew who is somewhat lax or non-observant. However, our Torah consists of many democratic ideals, going in length to protect individual rights. In fact, one could make a very good and true argument that Torah Law is both more compassionate and more advanced then the current law and is relevant to every field of endeavor. What blocks the state from advancing such a structure, I believe, is the ignorance of the average Jew in the knowledge of Torah. They unjustly fear that a Torah State, even if it employs democratic principles, is akin to one of the many Islamic fundamentalist states such as Iran or Saudi Arabia. Nothing could be further from the truth. The two systems are incomparable. What should be done to correct this problem is to revoke the citizenship of non-Jews in the Land and grant them residency if they are willing to jive with the state's laws. The Torah allows for resident aliens to live in the land peacefully. You do not have to be Jewish to live there, and you can stay as long as you respect the law (that being Torah Law). But, the resident alien does not have voter rights and sovereignty is solely in the domain of the Jewish people of the land. Today, of course, it is much more difficult to make the switch then had we done it in 1947, but the security situation, and the constant degradation and dilution of our sacred faith and heritage justifies acting on it right now and not hesitating any further. I'll stop here before I go off on that tangent you spoke of. (this is the 2nd time I'm posting this. Ynet, please don't make me rewrite it a 3rd time)
25. My sympathies to the teachers
Christy ,   Boston, USA   (09.04.07)
Any teacher who would try and teach this subject requires the wisdom of Solomon. Religion needs to be part of the course. How to include the religious part without incurring the condemnation & ire of some groups is the part that needs Solomon's Wisdom. My prayers are with the teachers and those who oversee the curriculum.
26. LEE,in my opinion,all your TB in this section were BRILLIANT
Keren ,   Israel-SP   (09.04.07)
Kol Hakavod!
27. Toda Keren.
LEE ,   NY, USA   (09.04.07)
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