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Jewish leader urges US Muslims to condemn violence
Reuters
Published: 01.09.07, 11:49
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36 Talkbacks for this article
1. Howsabout using religious myth to rob people's land and home
(09.01.07)
2. Can I Be Politically Incorrect?
Terry ,   Eilat, Israel   (09.01.07)
Or will you censor my comments? A distinction should be made between the ideology & it's adherents. But an ideology is subject to analysis, can be examined in detail, it's consequences shown historically, it's current teachings illustrated. This being said, the rabbi is totally wrong in his interpretation. Even a brief study of Islamic teachings as found in the Qur'an itself, in the Hadith (stories about the behavior of Mohamed), in Shari'a law, in the teaching of Muslim scholars & clerics since the inception of Islam to the present day, in various works of interpretation by Muslim theologians themselves, & in the very obvious behavior of Islamic societies today, give a different view than this politically correct rabbi. The basic doctrines of Islam the ideology are essentially political in nature - they envision a theocratic state governed by Shari'a law. No other form of gov't is legitimate. The world is divided into the "House of Islam" & "Infidels". The object of Islam is to conquer the infidels. Essential to this is the concept of Jihad or holy war. This is not the forum for a long & detailed analysis, but the rabbi has evidently not spent much time studying the subject - he is indulging in wishful thinking & denial of reality. The ideology is what it is - totalitarian, aggressive, & hostile. This does not mean that all Muslims subscribe totally to the ideology. Rabbi Yoffie should go do his homework before making statements that are so inaccurate.
3. should be mutual urging
Muslim   (09.01.07)
4. #2 yes, you can
(09.01.07)
The object of Islam is certainly Not to conquer the infidels who do not wage war on Muslims. In war and In arguing talk with the infidels, Muslims are instructed to do good! So what's good in war with the infidels? "Fight them only when the Fight you to make the Word of God high" there is no place for humanly judged preemptive strike! if you are to resort to, it should in compliance with the Islamic faith of attacking others when they tress-pass on your right or on your faith. In fighting kids, women, and plant shouldn't be killed, those who put down their weapons shouldn't be killed. Even in disputing a case with infidels, talk should be in the polite "best way". God said to Moses: "return back to the Pharon and talk to him leniently " "You will find the Christians the best people to Live Closely With, that's because they have priests and monks" How long have you been in contact with Islam and Muslims?
5. jurnalism
(09.01.07)
According to Ynet: "He said Americans need to know "how far removed Islam is from the perverse distortions of the terrorists " According to Haaretz: "He accused American media, politicians and religious groups of demonizing Islam" is not "he" the same source?
6. And it should as well
Arun ,   Malaysia   (09.01.07)
applies to those who use relegion to justify stealing other people's land.
7. Good ol' religion of peace
M. Hartley ,   Atlanta, US   (09.01.07)
If you want to take the time to learn, here's a good start. http://www.faithfreedom.org/ If you want to learn even more and have a lot of time, go here: http://prophetofdoom.net/Prophet_of_Doom_Islams_Terrorist_Dogma_in_Muhammads_Own_Words.Islam They're eye-openers. Obviously, the rabbi hasn't read any of it.
8. #4 Anon. - In answer to your question.
Terry ,   Eilat, Israel   (09.01.07)
I come from an Arab country where I lived for approx. 40 yrs. & I speak Arabic. I have read the Qur'an in both English & French translations as well as many other works on theology, history, & sociology. I suggest to you that your talkback is either deliberately deceptive or you just don't know your own religion. Needless to say, my experience of living in a Muslim Arab country has left me severely Islamophobic as I have seen first-hand the harm that this ideology has on the lives of those it touches. As it happens, I have quite a number of ex-Muslim friends who are perhaps more Islamophobic than I am, probably due to closer contact. I am far too lazy to look up quotes & other relevent information so I suggest that you avail yourself of several interesting websites for your own edification: www.jihadwatch www.jihadwatch/islam101 www.islamundressed Then come back & tell me more about the "religion of peace".
9. But why don't the Muslims make these call?
Robert Tilnden   (09.01.07)
I'm sick and tired of George Bush, Tony Blaire or Eric Yoffie insisting they know what true Islam is. I hear when Muslims are upset about something: Salman Rushdi put on a hit list, mass demostrations against Danish cartoonisnts, Muslim confrences handing out 'Islamophobia' awards to Sharon or Bush or whoever. Where are the fatwas against Bin Ladin any other terririst? The total lack of Muslims ability to handle any criticims teaches about the total insecurity they feel. As far as I am concerned they have a long way to go.
10. "stealing other people's land"
Korem ,   New York, USA   (09.01.07)
Firstly, using that phrase to describe the creation of Israel is just plain historically inaccurate and ignorant. Second, the only Jews who justify any theft of land based on religion, are some crazy settlers and kahanists, and not the mainstream Jewish population. So if you ant to denounce those particular Jewish fanatics that's one thing but the talkbacks (6, 1) are implying that somehow the whole of Israel is to blame.
11. #7 M. Hartley - Thanks for the websites.
Terry ,   Eilat, Israel   (09.01.07)
They were quite informative although when discussing ancient texts, it is necessary to examine & take into consideration the historical context & environment - they cannot be judged with "modern" values. The problem with Islam is that it seeks to perpetuate the context into modern times unchanged, except using modern technology to propagate it's doctrines. But the sites are worth reading nonetheless - it's a shame the good rabbi didn't read them before making his vacuous remarks.
12. To #11
M. Hartley ,   Atlanta, US   (09.01.07)
Site #1 only skims the surface. I know that it takes a lot of time, but wait until you can really delve into the details of site #2. It all becomes mind-boggling, especially in a historical context. I'm convinced that there are only "moderate" Muslims, because some of them do have the good sense to lay low while they're outnumbered and so to speak outgunned. Change that equation and all hell would break loose.
13. #8 why should we explain Islam's stand towards others
(09.01.07)
when the others do not explain their religion's stand towards Muslim? May be the others are hiding, maybe they are deceiving, or maybe they are not allowed to know their own religion? Those who are raised in Islamic countries knows the difference; anyone can embrace Islam; it's up to oneself to judge his own faith. So what you expect from one who inherited his religion by birth right, what his view about the other, you know very well, because if you were blinded by your birth right you wouldn't actually See what others have, even if you allocate a lot of time to study theirs.
14. To #2 Either you're a liar or don't know Islam
M. Hartley ,   Atlanta, US   (09.01.07)
Qur'an:9:88 "The Messenger and those who believe with him, strive hard and fight with their wealth and lives in Allah's Cause." Qur'an:9:5 "Fight and kill the disbelievers wherever you find them, take them captive, harass them, lie in wait and ambush them using every stratagem of war." Qur'an:9:112 "The Believers fight in Allah's Cause, they slay and are slain, kill and are killed." Qur'an:9:29 "Fight those who do not believe until they all surrender, paying the protective tax in submission." Ishaq:325 "Muslims, fight in Allah's Cause. Stand firm and you will prosper. Help the Prophet, obey him, give him your allegiance, and your religion will be victorious." Qur'an:8:39 "Fight them until all opposition ends and all submit to Allah." Qur'an:8:39 "So fight them until there is no more Fitnah (disbelief [non-Muslims]) and all submit to the religion of Allah alone (in the whole world)." Ishaq:324 "He said, ‘Fight them so that there is no more rebellion, and religion, all of it, is for Allah only. Allah must have no rivals.'" Qur'an:9:14 "Fight them and Allah will punish them by your hands, lay them low, and cover them with shame. He will help you over them." Ishaq:300 "I am fighting in Allah's service. This is piety and a good deed. In Allah's war I do not fear as others should. For this fighting is righteous, true, and good." Ishaq:587 "Our onslaught will not be a weak faltering affair. We shall fight as long as we live. We will fight until you turn to Islam, humbly seeking refuge. We will fight not caring whom we meet. We will fight whether we destroy ancient holdings or newly gotten gains. We have mutilated every opponent. We have driven them violently before us at the command of Allah and Islam. We will fight until our religion is established. And we will plunder them, for they must suffer disgrace." Qur'an:8:65 "O Prophet, urge the faithful to fight. If there are twenty among you with determination they will vanquish two hundred; if there are a hundred then they will slaughter a thousand unbelievers, for the infidels are a people devoid of understanding." Ishaq:326 "Prophet exhort the believers to fight. If there are twenty good fighters they will defeat two hundred for they are a senseless people. They do not fight with good intentions nor for truth." Bukhari:V4B52N63 "A man whose face was covered with an iron mask came to the Prophet and said, ‘Allah's Apostle! Shall I fight or embrace Islam first?' The Prophet said, ‘Embrace Islam first and then fight.' So he embraced Islam, and was martyred. Allah's Apostle said, ‘A Little work, but a great reward.'" Bukhari:V4B53N386 "Our Prophet, the Messenger of our Lord, ordered us to fight you till you worship Allah alone or pay us the Jizyah tribute tax in submission. Our Prophet has informed us that our Lord says: ‘Whoever amongst us is killed as a martyr shall go to Paradise to lead such a luxurious life as he has never seen, and whoever survives shall become your master.'" Muslim:C34B20N4668 "The Messenger said: ‘Anybody who equips a warrior going to fight in the Way of Allah is like one who actually fights. And anybody who looks after his family in his absence is also like one who actually fights." Qur'an:9:38 "Believers, what is the matter with you, that when you are asked to go forth and fight in Allah's Cause you cling to the earth? Do you prefer the life of this world to the Hereafter? Unless you go forth, He will afflict and punish you with a painful doom, and put others in your place." Qur'an:9:123 "Fight the unbelievers around you, and let them find harshness in you." Do you want more quotes?
15. #13 Why didn't u just say ur muslim & don't care???
(09.01.07)
16. stealing other people's land
Rachel ,   Israel   (09.01.07)
The ones who stole the Land of Israel are the Arabs who stole it from the Jews. After all, all three of the major religions believe in the "Old Testament", where it is written that G-d gave the Land to the Jews.
17. #14 goes to #4 NOT #2
M. Harltey ,   Atlantan, US   (09.01.07)
18. Yoffi is a dhimmi, this is well known in America
Tara ,   California   (09.01.07)
19. #14 a reminder
(09.01.07)
Sanhedrin 57a . When a Jew murders a gentile ("Cuthean"), there will be no death penalty. What a Jew steals from a gentile he may keep. Baba Kamma 37b. The gentiles are outside the protection of the law and God has "exposed their money to Israel." Baba Kamma 113a. Jews may use lies ("subterfuges") to circumvent a Gentile. Yebamoth 98a. All gentile children are animals. Abodah Zarah 36b. Gentile girls are in a state of niddah (filth) from birth. Minor Tractates. Soferim 15, Rule 10. This is the saying of Rabbi Simon ben Yohai: Tob shebe goyyim harog ("Even the best of the gentiles should all be killed"). Israelis annually take part in a national pilgrimage to the grave of Simon ben Yohai, to honor this rabbi who advocated the extermination of non-Jews. (Jewish Press, June 9, 1989, p. 56B). On Purim, Feb. 25, 1994, Israeli army officer Baruch Goldstein, an orthodox Jew from Brooklyn, massacred 40 Palestinian civilians, including children, while they knelt in prayer in a mosque. Goldstein was a disciple of the late Brooklyn Rabbi Meir Kahane, who told CBS News that his teaching that Arabs are "dogs" is derived "from the Talmud." (CBS 60 Minutes, "Kahane"). Rabbi Yitzhak Ginsburg declared, "We have to recognize that Jewish blood and the blood of a goy are not the same thing." (NY Times, June 6, 1989, p.5). Rabbi Yaacov Perrin said, "One million Arabs are not worth a Jewish fingernail." (NY Daily News, Feb. 28, 1994, p.6).
20. To #18
M. Hartley ,   Atlanta, US   (09.02.07)
Since I've not heard Jewish threats to kill or enslave anyone who refuses to convert, I feel pretty comfortable around my Jewish friends and acquaintances. As for the sources you quote, could you distinguish those that are supposedly inspired by the Hebrew god from those that are merely opinions and/or rants of various individuals who spouted and/or went off the deep end? But tell me how the fallacies of one religion justify those of another one? Whatever any rabbi may or may not say has nothing to do with what Islam peddles as allah's direct word to mohammed. To me, it only confirms that "revealed" religion, be that Christianity, Judaism or Islam has not contributed to the health of the family of man. I'll let the Jewish readers comment on the veracity of what you posted.
21. To #1. Afraid Of Something ?
Maansingh ,   The Netherlands   (09.02.07)
You write :".. religious myth ..". You mean to say that Moses the Law Giver, who lived from 1440 B.Chr. till 1320 B.Chr. -- is a myth ? You mean to say that Lord Jesus Christ, who lived from 0 B.Chr. till 33 A.D. -- is a myth ? You mean to say that Prophet Mohammed, who lived from 570 A.D. till 632 A.D. -- is a myth ? BTW why haven't you mentioned your name ? Maybe ashamed of something ? Maybe afraid of something ?
22. #21
(09.02.07)
he/she didn't reveal his/her name because he/ she may have been way to too too embarassed by the idiotic nonesense they wrote
23. #22 Hey! did you forget your name?
false name ,   false country   (09.02.07)
24. they were made to carry the scrolls, but
(09.02.07)
not to carry on their instruction.
25. #14 M. Hartley - Loved the quotes.
Terry ,   Eilat, Israel   (09.02.07)
You're quite the scholar - I didn't have the patience to look up all these quotes although I was quite familiar with them. You should send them to the rabbi, he is obviously unfamiliar with the subject matter, much preferring to babble a bunch of banal platitudes & liberal cant instead of tackling the subject head-on. In the scientific method as well as (hopefully) law, we go where the evidence leads us - the rabbi does the opposite, he has a preconceived notion & talks about what he wishes were true. This is the same problem that politicians have when talking about the Middle-East conflict - spewing forth ad nauseaum "peace, peace, peace" without examining the facts on the ground. But, like I always say, eventually reality comes knocking on the door & punches you in the face.
26. Lands invaded and occupied by Muslim Arabs.
Benezra ,   Israel   (09.02.07)
Byzantine Syria in 635, Armenia and Egypt in 639, North Africa in 642, Persia in 644, Khorasan and Sogdia in 709, Pakistan 711-712,Iberia 711-718. The African East Coast, Malaysia and Indonesia. How´s that for stealing land?
27. to #19
kutuzov ,   new york   (09.02.07)
Its interesting that everything you quot is an opinion of some rabbi or some historical event. Volumes and volumes can be filled with racist statements by sheikhs, muftis, and imams from across the muslim world. From the terrorism that plagues the world today to the support of Hitler during world war 2 - Islams legacy is abhorrent. It is further interesting that the quotes in #14 are the direct quotes from the Quran - i.e. they are a direct evidence of the hogwash taught in your religion.... not just some opinions from radicals (of which Islam has more than its fair share).
28. Living in a dream world
K. Tyson ,   Mobile, AL USA   (09.02.07)
There have been NO statements of condemning terrorist attacks by the Islamic community in the United States. None. If anyone is ignorant, it is Rabbi Yoffie.
29. #19-everything about the Talmud you posted is fraudulent
Korem ,   New York, USA   (09.02.07)
The Sanhedrin 57 quote is a misquote, it does not promote murder at all. It clearly states that a Jew who murders a Gentile will be subject to punishment by Hashem and Heaven. In those times the King was responsible for instituting the death penalty, and if a Jew killed a Gentile and the king didn't order him to death, the rabbinical courts would execute those murderers. Also, it doesn't say "what a Jew steals he may keep." The Talmud says the verse at that passage restricting Gentiles from stealing doesn't apply to Jews, because verses prohibiting Jews from stealing are found later in the Talmud. Now to your first Baba Kamma quote. The quote actually is saying that if a community doesn't keep the seven Noahide laws (such as no stealing, no murder, etc- Not "the gentiles"), then G-d "exposes" their property such that if an animal ends up damaging their property, they can't collect damages from Israel because why should they benefit from the laws of a nation when they don't respect those laws? The Talmud later states that a Gentile who studies the Torah is equivalent to a Jewish high priest. The Baba Kamma 113a is ANOTHER misquote. It doesn't say Jews may use subterfuges against a "gentile"- it says Jews may use subterfuges against a Roman tax collector who abused his authority and stole property- but then the Talmud quotes Rabbi Akiva who says using a subterfuge even when it is justifiable is still an act against G-d. The passage consists of a debate, not a rule. The Yebamoth quote is another misquote. It launches a debate about the status of a converted Gentile woman, and whether her children will carry no stigma for having an uncircumcized father, and whether the children are biological kin to their fellow (now) Jews. It NEVER states that Gentile children are animals. You Abodah Zara quote is wrong TOO! Niddah does NOT mean filth. Niddah is the menstrual cycle. The passage states that a female Jew who has had her period has a status of niddah until the flow stops and she is dipped in natural water (mikveh), then the passage states that a certain sect of Jews that didn't follow this practice is in a state of niddah from birth unless proved otherwise. The Talmud doesn't even reference Gentile girls. Simon ben Yohai's quote was said after the Romans killed his family and destroyed everything he had and he was living in a cave. The Talmud quotes him but does NOT promote his quote. Yohai never acted upon his quote and his other teachings, before and after, ran completely contrary to the quote, and thus pretty much nullify it. Also as someone who attended ultra-orthodox schools, I assure you these quotes are never mentioned or promoted when they discuss the history of the rabbis. Rabbi Yitzhak Ginsburg & Yaacov Perrin are known extreme right-wing Kabbalist rabbis, and quoting them in an attempt to smear all Jews is just as wrong as quoting Nasrallah and Bin Laden to smear all Muslims (so- you're pretty much a hypocrite).
30. This is a disgrace
Mike Jefferson ,   Washington D.C.   (09.02.07)
Yoffie is nothing more than a "Kapo" Jew and Dhimmi. As Churchill once said an appeaser is one who hopes an alligator will eat him last.
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