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High Court slams 'kosher' bus lines for ultra-Orthodox
Aviram Zino
Published: 14.01.08, 22:49
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1. first time i agree with high court!
gabriela ben ari ,   jerusalem   (01.14.08)
I should copy paste what i just wrote on Uri's opinion article! I take these buses every single day, and I feel insulted to have to move to the back and smash myself with another 50 women. Put it this way - if it is so important to separate genders, why is it that women are pushed backwards? If the number of women on these buses, which as i said b4 outnumber men by 4:1 why not alloting most of the bus? Many get car sick sitting at the back an end up taking cabs- Teheran is getting us again :I'm orthodox btw b@stards
2. Religious fundamentalism is nothing
Joe ,   Ohio, USA   (01.14.08)
but a blight on all mankind. It all too often ends up being nothing more than a institutional supported venue for bigotry, intolerance and hatred. The world would be a better place without organized religion period.
3. To gabriela #1 and Joe #2
Leo ,   Melbourne   (01.15.08)
Gabriela if you were "orthodox by the way" you will know the simple reason why woman sit at the back or why men walk or sit in front of women in general. This is done so that men would not be checking women out from behind. Its to respect and protect the rights of women. I'm secular and I know this. Joe, I believe that Stalin, Mao and Pol pot alone all killed tens of millions of people in the name of instituionalised secularism...not religion. Fundamenalist and institutionalised secularalism is no better and quite possibly far more dangerous than "organised religion." Its certainly the case in Israels situtation every time the secular Israeli government arms and funds terrorists to murder Jews or when the unelected, politically partisan and activist high court intervenes in israel's defence matters, making it far more easier for terrororists to murder more jews.
4. Unacceptable
paul malykont ,   United States   (01.15.08)
Religious fanaticism is the same everywhere. Let them live in Arabia if they can't respect and live with others.
5. Public money for public use
Secular   (01.15.08)
And so should it be with regards to transportation as well. That means it sould be available to and accessible to all. Did you know that in Saudi, they segregate buses according to gender? One side for men, the other for women. Not only on the bus, but in public, women must be dressed modestly and cannot go in public unescorted. However well intentioned the government is in its desire to serve the Haredim, this is not the way to take it. And that's because it takes away from the liberties of other citizens-the rights to movement, and to free religious oberservance. If the Haredim want transportation like this, then it really should be handled by their synagogues. Using public money for this infringes on the other citizens of the State.
6. Public money for public use
Secular   (01.15.08)
And so should it be with regards to transportation as well. That means it sould be available to and accessible to all. Did you know that in Saudi, they segregate buses according to gender? One side for men, the other for women. Not only on the bus, but in public, women must be dressed modestly and cannot go in public unescorted. However well intentioned the government is in its desire to serve the Haredim, this is not the way to take it. And that's because it takes away from the liberties of other citizens-the rights to movement, and to free religious oberservance. If the Haredim want transportation like this, then it really should be handled by their synagogues. Using public money for this infringes on the other citizens of the State.
7. And they *should* be slammed!
Raymond from DC ,   Washington, DC USA   (01.15.08)
I lived in Jerusalem in the 1970's, and none of the buses were "mehadrin". Egged buses were a public convenience used by men and women, secular students and yeshiva bochers, rabbis and professors. Why is such mixing no longer acceptable? Go outside the country, for that matter, and see how the haredim of London, Antwerp or New York have learn to mix with those of other communities, because they must. Leading scholars have insisted there's no problem for haredim to ride the subways, for example. So why should the good people of Israel put up with this narishkeit?
8. Let them on the bus even without pants!
Izik ,   Silicon Valley USA   (01.15.08)
Now that would be something, to let women on the bus with no pants! Oh to the hell with it, make everybody ride the buses naked. Not only would this deter suicdie bombers, but it may make for a friendlier atmosphere on the bus. I mean, the buses would get so popular, the bus companies would operate at a profit!
9. Doesn't the court have more important matters to rule on
Miriam ,   Israel   (01.15.08)
Like criminal matters. Naomi Ragen is a great author, but this time she is barking up the wrong tree.
10. Kosher bus lines
Norman Gellman ,   Israel   (01.15.08)
The Ultra Orthodox could not get kosher buses any place else in the world, and should not be allowed in Israel
11. LET THE TALIBAN MOVE TO AFGHANISTAN
Sergio ,   Israel   (01.15.08)
The IGNORANT so-called Haredi who PRACTICE FOREIGN CUSTOMS that hev NOTHING TO DO WITH TORAH, should join their spiritual brethren in Afghanistan: they might contribute even more to our country's welfare than by going around dressed like Babylonian idolwoshippers (see Rabbenu BAchye and Ben Ish Chai, BOTH FORBIDDING TO WEAR BLACK ON SHABBATH!) and doing constant CHILLUL HASHEM AND CHILLUL HA-TORAH
12. High Court Stay Out
Reuven Brauner ,   Raanana, Israel   (01.15.08)
The war continues. The secular, anti-religious, anti-Torah High Court of the State of Israel again interferes where it should stay out. It again imposes its value system on people who have an entirely different understanding of what life is all about. It imposes its understanding of "freedom" on those who value the concept of modesty more. Again, Mr. Rubinstein, who should have been the first to defend observant Jewry, is at the forefront of those who undermine it. You acted not right, Mr. Rubinstein. Not right, at all.
13. To Leo #3
Semper Fi! ,   San Diego, USA   (01.15.08)
Tell me why a guy out of Australia is giving lessons to Gabriela #1 how to sit in an israeli bus? Why don't you move your derriere that I promise won't look at it and live in Israel. Haredim/Taliban same crowd. I was wondering the back of a woman seems to be a problem for them, perhaps they can't help and think about kinky things to do with it... BTW, Kosher bus means you can eat it? I thought Kosher was only for food...I'm for naked people on kosher buses as well....
14. Kosher bus lines
Hannah ,   Israel   (01.15.08)
Some people very uncomfortable when exposed to immodest dress or behaviour. If there are alternate bus routes for people who want to dress (and behave) as they like, why must they insist on riding the kosher buses and making others feel uncomfortable?
15. Segregation - Ultra-Orthodox Style
Aharon   (01.15.08)
16. Every country has got it's Mullahs.
Willy   (01.15.08)
I just wonder why they are so afraid of women?
17. A survey by Forbes Magazine years ago found that 40% of the
Rivkah   (01.15.08)
women in America do not own a skirt or a dress. Deuteronomy in the Bible says it is an abomination for a women to wear that which pertains to men. WHAT is attire that pertains to men? Surprisingly, it may not be long pants; but it is a kind of long pants. Proverbs gives a clue when it warns men not to give their strength to women. The word strength means army, defenses, fortifications according to lexicons (Bible dictionaries). It is an abomination to God for women to wear the MILITARY attire of men. To please the Lord, women should wear DIFFERENT uniforms from men in the IDF, not wear dresses on buses.
18. 14 - They should stay in their ghettoes
Chaya ,   Bat Yam, Israel   (01.15.08)
And not leave so they won't see women that might 'offend' them!!
19. #4 & 10 Israel IS a JEWISH country and MUST follow
Joseph P. ,   JewRusalem   (01.15.08)
Jewish ORTHODOX law, which is NOT the Ultra-Secular Meretz Jewish Hate Laws of the Evil Court. If Orthodox Rabbis claim that it's better that women sit separately, so be it. Those who cannot follow the ruling of Orthodox Rabbis and JEWISH LAWS can leave this JEWISH COUNTRY and move to Arabia, as you suggest.
20. What a surprise that this Anti-Jewish ULTRA-SECULAR Court
Joseph P. ,   JewRusalem   (01.15.08)
slammed Orthodox ruling. It would have taken a miracle for such a low level court to "rule" differently. Moshiach would surely have appeared at their doorstep if their “verdict” would have seemed anything too Jewish.
21. #3 u r 2 funny! on what hill in Melbourne was Torah given?
sally forth ,   jerusalem of course!   (01.15.08)
22. Rivkah 'abomination' is a strong word! We choose 2 apply 2 u
(01.15.08)
23. #20 Judge Rubenstein is Orthodox & knows Torah on a higher
level than u!   (01.15.08)
24. #20 Joseph P
Aharon   (01.15.08)
If Moshe Rabbeinu himself showed up at your doorstep (dressed like a Bedouin, in all likelihood) then you would call him un-Jewish. There is nothing Jewish about you Haredim.
25. #23 Rubinstein
Joseph P. ,   Jerusalem   (01.15.08)
Rubinstein with his teeny weeny kipa knows that if he wants to be able to sit with the Meretz' Begatznikess, he has to speak "their" language.
26. I would have been disappointed if ....
Hiram ,   Paris   (01.15.08)
Joseph P had not exposed his point of view on this matter....and I am glad he did.... Discrimination has been and still is what characterizes countries going against progress and the well being of its inhabitants. Discrimination based on Sex, way of dressing, religious engagement is something usually found in extremist locations as previously discussed. Those who believe have positively no right to attempt to modify society around their own beliefs. Short of that , Israel ( already much impacted by the weight of religion and financially involved also for the reason we all know ...) will become not different from any Islamic nation. Let remind Joseph P , Rivkah and the others that Israeli women have also given their lives , sometimes in an unvoluntary fashion, so that the country could still go on. Modesty is an attitude of the heart and the vast majority of Israelis , including those who are members of the High Court have obviously more intelligence and common sense than a few bearded mollahs ( who should not even ask for anything from the government as the State of Israel does not even exist !!!!)
27. Ahhhhhh! Joseph P ...
Hiram ,   Paris   (01.15.08)
Yes Joseph P ..You are right...or should I say in line with your own beliefs, therefore predictable . I would go one step further if I was orthodox : I would recommend that death penalty may be applied against those women who have love affairs while married. If I recall, in the biblical days , they were stoned to death , with God's approval of course. The only problem Joseph P is that you establish as a preliminary that God exist, when the vast majority of the Jews left in the world have a different opinion : some say it does exist, some say it MAY exist , some believe there is no GOD, so tell me in what name should ALL THE JEWS IN ISRAEL FOLLOW SOME MOLLAH LIKE JUDGEMENT SIMPLY BECAUSE THE LIKE OF YOU ARE OUTRAGED AS PUBLIC AND CIVIL LIBERTIES RIGHTFULLY EARNED BY WOMEN...
28. #12 Reuven #19 Joseph
Jewish Dati ,   Gush   (01.15.08)
Separate seating in buses has absolutely nothing to do with znius halacha or religion Its a power game to make sure women stay demoralized
29. # 3 LEO so checking the "front" is ok LLLOOOLLLL
gabriela ben ari ,   jerusalem   (01.15.08)
30. HELLENIST COURTS
DAVID ,   JUDEA   (01.15.08)
Without a doubt the next ruling will be against something else related to judaism. Something like kashrut or keeping the shabath, which is discriminating against the hedonistic lifestyle of many israelis. This is yet another proof that the state and itsinstitutions are not representing us the jewish people of this land. The states is a atheist oriented entity with no change of survival in the long run.
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