Excellent analysis. That's exactly what the Leftists and israeli self-haters need to learn. The only problem is Olmerts and most of the politicians are far beeing capable of assuming the realities. Much worse the more you are trying to give some illusions, the more the illusions are creating a reality on which the arab leaders are building the hopes of their people.

Instead of proposing a modus vivendi of coexistence with disagreement, why not propose that the Arab Israelis have two choices: leave Israel by foot or by bus.

"This country was our home, and you turned it into a foreign place for us. In a Christian state we will always feel like foreigners: The Spanish flag is not our flag, and the yours is not our national anthem. It is impossible to replace our Muslim dream by your dhimmi dream"

The fundamental of international law is the principle of nationalities, i.e. the right of self determination of the peoples, and the adjustment of borders to inhabitants' identity. Muslim arabs deny this right to any dhimmi or on arab minority. The result of ethnic supremacy whims: ask Sudeten Germans. Pals dream of deporting the Jews: a reciprocal action could await them.

Perhaps a better solution then is a single unified secular state for both Israelis and Palestinians, with no right of return, no law of return, a design to prevent the communities from using the law to prefer themselves or abuse the other, and a complete abolition of madrassahs, schuls, and other private education that serves to divide the population. Harsh sacrifices, but the west should not support Israel as a first-world country if it continues to act as a racial homeland (provided they don't push for theocracy and accept rule of law, Turks in Germany and almost anyone in the United States are welcome, or at least that's the ideal people strive for), and nobody should accept the status quo if chauvenism leads to endless war, ethnic cleansing, racial/religious preference, and the cultural rot this seems to have spawned.

Tragically, reality based thinking has been replaced by delusional thinking from many quarters. The FACT that Israel's leaders have adopted this dangerous mindset poses an existential peril for our homeland. There is little doubt that a MAJORITY of Arabs in Israel want Israel as a Jewish state to disappear. This is a FACT. The FACT that Jews are not allowed in most Arab countries does not even register in the leftist's mind, nor in the Arab mind. The FACT that Israel's leaders have NO problem agreeing to a Judenrein PA (terror) state attests to their delusions. NO matter. IF Jews seek to survive in their homeland they will need to get to used to a hostile minority among them. The trick is to 'weed out' -one way or another- those who openly advocate our destruction, and to 'tolerate' the others who wish to remain in Israel for one reason or another. IF any subversive activities are undertaken they must be dealt with swiftly.

Kahane voiced this 30+ years ago..

This country was our home, and you turned it into a foreign place for us. This is a quote from a Palestinian university student in Israel. SEE the thinking of a MUSLIME> They never did have a palestinian couuntry or state yet they say that Israel was their homeland...What a load of camel dung

yes we palastinians do not like israili and we hate them but sure we believe that it must be a solution other than war .. but i think israil do not like the pals and they hate them and aske for the wars only . they afraid of antisemitism but we can not love who we hate but we can live with them .. becouse of that israil want to be a jewish state but to me it is not a problem to live with any other religion people if i have my rights

Wheat & Dates------------- Some grow as wheat of the field, in a single season breaking through the ground and ripening. But their produce is such that it must be shelled and ground and refined and kneaded and baked before providing good to the world--and much must be cast aside. Others grow as the date palm, which may weather seventy years before its first fruit arrives. But it is fruit that is sweet and satisfying to the hand that picks it, and every part of the palm and its fruit have something of value to provide. Plow and sow. The fruits will come.It is fortunate we jews plow and sow and the Arabs been idoling dialogue to no where :-)~

The author of the article draws the right conclusion from the state of mind of the Arab community in regards to peace with Israel. He did not even have to attend this meeting with students to confirm what must have been his previous experience & knowledge of such expose of Arab thinking as that of Nonie Darwish (http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1192380626879&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull) Perhaps he was hoping for a more promissing attitude from a group of people of higher learning. But there are at least three other factors, one fundamental the others circumstancial that preclude any lasting peace aggreement even if one could be signed for the short term. The fundamental factor is the inexistence of real states to deal with. What would be the long term value of a peace treaty with artificial countries such as Syria, Lebanon, Irak, Saudi Arabia etc.. which are unstable heterogenous set-ups of hostile people by former colonial powers? Their existence is threatened from both inside divisions & from outside extremists if they deviate from hostility with Israel. Is the Hamas & Fatah conflict not a current example of this? The other factors in my view are the Arab education systems & the oil monney . Both factors are not short term impediments to peace & might require decades if not generations to overcome. An idea of what education in extremism can do was reported by a reformed student, Tawfik Hamid (http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1198517319969&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull)

Have you ever looked at a map of the Middle East? There are 22 Arab countries with lots of land and then there is this one very small Jewish homeland,Israel. Yet you want this one small Jewish country to disappear so that once again the Jewish people can be at the mercy of others. Is 2,000 years of persecution of the Jewish people not enough for you? Or is your proposal for this bi-national secular state , which would quickly become the 23rd Arab state, just your way of advocating more persecution of the Jewish people?

Very nice job. Now if only Moshiach would come and we would all see the light of truth..

dialogue is not always the first step toward reconcilation and change --common effort for the common good is often more effective. That is why the exclusion of Arabs from national service (however understandable) has had regrettable unforseen consequences. In addition by creating a fair and open Jewish state for all its citizens (as France or Ireland aspire to be French or Irish state sfor all their citizens) the hardline "irreconciliable" differences can melt away or lead to a workable rapproachment over time. A more postive midrash on Haetzni's metaphor of a "chronic disease" might therefore be in order. (And BTW in America they are celebrating Martin Luther King's legacy today.)

All of a sudden the Arab fundamentalists decide that they are superior to Western democracies. The proof? They don`t have it. The only thing they dream of is forcing Western Dhimmis on their knees before the superior (Sic) Muslems . Result? Death for nothing. Hundreds of thousands of innocent people will die in both sides during the 21st century. Until? Until this foolish dream is replaced by constructive and not destructive democratic philosophies.

I believe in courtesy. It would be appropriate of you to respond in kind without insults (re "Pee"). Moving on, I don't believe national homelands are something we should strive for in modern times, Arab or Jewish. If Ireland or Spain had similar nationality policies to those of Israel, that would bother me too. Nations may have a limited role as separate experiments in governance, and they may so happen to have a certain culture associated with them based on historical ties, but to embrace these ties too specifically and too strongly is not a pretty thing. I care for the human people and for liberalism, and to the extent that any particular grouping of those people are liberal or can be made liberal, I hope to see them prosper. I don't believe any ethnic or other grouping of people should dwell alone or merits purely by its grouping a homeland. The Ashkenazim don't need their own homeland, even if some see themselves as a distinct people. Ethnic hebrews don't need a homeland, neither do the broader categories of semites, nor do scots, franks, picts, kurds, ainu, or any other ethnic group you might name. To the extent that other nations like Saudi Arabia and Switzerland establish barriers to those that move in, and states like Qatar use race to create a perpetual underclass of Indian workers, these are big problems. Israel can and should do better than them, and it is more developed than they are. My support for Israel (which is real, but nuanced) is tied to the relative degree of liberalism and civilisation it has compared to its neighbours. I don't like persecution, and I think it's sad that you're so hostile to other views that you choose both to make fun of the name I've chosen here and to suggest that I have some kind of an interest in perpetuating it.

I dont see how you came to your conclusion's.. and what (if any) logic was used. You seem to be completely clueless as to the situation, feelings, and the very article you commented on.. So let me very nicely color it for you... the arabs dont want a multi national state.. the arabs dont care if its a religious or secular state.. the arabs dont want ANY jews in the middle east.. or are prepared to accept them as dihmi's.. the arabs want sharia.. Your liberal utopian ilusions just make you a mockery to the world.. Your scientific garbage is worthless because you blatantly ignore history and its outcome. I dont care if I need a homeland.. its mine! end of story! its my country.. Take your suppirt for Israel elsewhere.. you support us commiting national suicide and betraying our country. And P, its a big bad world out there.. something you liberals seem to forget.. no one honestly cares what you think.. its true! You dont like persucution? me either.. the arabs love metting it out.. its the real world..

Again sad that you can't keep the discourse civil. What's the point of calling me "Poo" and "Pee"? How is it relevant to the discussion? The arabs are not all the same, not all of them want sharia, not all of them are even muslim, and there are many notions of what sharia might mean - the governments of Turkey, Pakistan, Saudi Arabia, and Iran are all very different (not that any of those but SA are arab). You paint the arabs with too broad a stroke though, just as some people paint jews with too broad a stroke. Neither group is homogenous. A belief in peace that doesn't depend on walling off the rest of the world into paranoid, racist enclaves is not something people should be ashamed of. There are large issues to deal with in promoting peace, for one matter rebuilding the cultural rot in large parts of both Israeli and Arab society that makes hatred the norm, for another reigning in militants on both sides, and for another building a workable society/state that's not horrific - these need to be done. Eventually differences, given enough peace and trust, don't become divisive - in the United States, the Irish and the Chinese suffered great persecution at various times, and blacks and hispanics still have difficulty, but there's a commitment among large parts of society to make progress on these issues. These changes will change us as a nation, but hopefully it will be peaceful and positive. Again recall that Jewish communities and Arab communities used to get along very well in many times and parts of the world. I don't believe it's impossible to reach that again, even if it will be difficult. You don't get to say end of story and have it be so. History still seems to be progressing, and difficulties still emerge from the attitudes and actions of all those involved. You also don't represent all jews or all israelis, thank Hashem. Israel will probably have to change at some point to survive, and it should change if it wants to thrive. The arabs are not the only people who persecute and perform injustice - israelis do it too, as well as virtually everyone else on the planet. It's part of our nature, and it's something we must struggle against if we want to better the world. This doesn't need to take the form of absolute pacifism (which is indeed a form of suicide in the modern world, as you suggest), but avoidance of hatred, interest in building trust, and avoiding jingoism sound at least like a good start. I realise that it may seem ironic for an American to be saying this given our current president, but there are many of us from across the entire american political spectrum who are ashamed of Bush.

Too bad more Israeli politicians don't realize these reality, and insist on deceiving themselves with talks.

Great article, and not surprising at all. Let's not let the facts get in the way; the Pal's never will except Israel, plain and simple. Elchonon is dead on. Modern day progressive liberal's tend to have absolutely no understanding of history; its a common symptom of their illness.

It is the true fact that there is no compromise in the Israeli-Arab dispute, The solution is very well put forth by letter written commenting on the subject: MS. A. Kutnicki. I whole heartedly second her suggestion. I think it is the only way.

You seem to think the same way the original zionists thought.. that since the world was being liberalized and modernized.. anti semitism in russia would comne to a end.. and this was the thinking of the secular jews in germany, that anti semitism was caused and directed merely at the eastern europeen shtetel jews. Maybe pick up a copy of the jews in arab lands. from time immemorial, the dhmmi, islamic imprelism to name a few.. islam and muslim's were never very kind to jews and judaism. Sure the arabs and muslims are different.. the ones here choose their own garbage to swim in.. What justification do they use to fire rockets from gaza ? occupation? Israel's closing the strip? well no kidding they are locked in.. Its quite funny how they can manufactur tens of thousands of rockets.. YET they claim they have no fuel to live blah blah blah and no food and blah blah blah The arabs chose terror as their destiny.. the world chooses to follow right along.. Again, the arabs do not want a bi national state.. and I sure as heck dont either.. The arabs in Israel see themselfs just the same as their arab brother in judea and samaria and for the most part are related to the gazan arabs etc..

Despite all of the hot air, there are, as always, the hard, cold facts on the ground to be dealt with in a realistic, no-nonsense manner. Might I also add that there are a great many of us here in the US who are deeply apalled & ashamed of the crushing stupidity and sillyness constantly put out by types such as yourself.

Spoken like a true liberal Christian (or possibly, Reform Jew). However, what do all your arguments have to do with the question at hand. I believe your solution has already been tried (the old Soviet Union). The old Soviet Union is now a dozen different countries. And if your solution was actually the future, how do you explain the Czech Republic and Slovakia, or, for that matter, what used to be Yugoslavia.

There is one big difference between P.'s comment and most of the others here: P. is providing some arguments. Let me sum up your counter arguments: 1. P is completely clueless (which I don't think). 2. The Arabs want the sharia. 3. Liberals such as P are ridiculous and irrelevant. 4. P.'s scientific garbage is worthless. 5. And finally you essentially tell him to f... off. I am very interested in world wide politics, I follow the European news, but I also try to catch up with the news in the U.S. and Israel. Nevertheless, there is no place where talkbacks are that aggressive, humiliating and senseless as they are in the Israeli media. The common reaction to someone who criticizes Israel is 1. Undermine his right to say something (e. g. talkbacker is clueless), 2. Call him an anti-Semite, self-hating Jew, leftist or Islamo-fascist, 3. Insult him in a personal way. I don't agree with P. either, however, if I want to have a discussion with him I will provide some factual counter-arguments – in a polite way. I think some mutual respect is necessary. Furthermore, a talkback-forum is much more interesting if people exchange opinions instead of insults.

The saddest and most pathetic thing about the Middle East is the definition of justice there. Justice in the Middle East means one thing only: denying the other side's rights to anything.

You should also go to the library and read books on the crusades, the inquisition, the pogroms and the holocaust. Your liberals koolaid ideas may look good on paper but in real life the Jews will not last long without their own homeland. Please leave our one tiny Jewish homeland alone and take your liberal ideas elsewhere.

So unless I use a name you approve of, you'll make fun of me? What's the point? What about the crusades, the inquisition, the pogroms, and shoah would you like to point out, and why do you assume I'm unaware of them or ignorant of their detail? What are you trying to say about them or what conclusions do you draw that are relevant to the discussion? Also, just like many other groupings of people, the Jews have survived without a homeland for many years. Many other peoples have done so as well, and given how fluidly "a people" can be defined, this is in fact the normal state of affairs - should the Sephardim advocate for their own homeland? How about the various ancient tribes of Israel? In other areas, should the many possible groupings of folk elsewhere in the world begin life-and-death struggle for their own plot of land? I can't imagine the results of that would be very positive.