Opinion
Western Wall tears
Meir Shalev
Published: 23.02.08, 14:20
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1. But ....
charles ,   petach tikva   (02.23.08)
By giving away this for whom the paratroopers have shed tears , will this put an end to the tears of pain and sorrow , regret and bereavement ? Who can assure this ? And it were not only the tears of the paratroopers , it were the tears of all the Jews worldwide who heard live Rav Goren blowing the Shofar at the liberated Kottel .
2. Some confusion over tears ....
Terry ,   Eilat, Israel   (02.23.08)
The paratroopers shed tears of joy at having liberated our holy sites, at liberating our capital city, at achieving victory over our enemies. The tears our ancestors shed were tears of misery over exile, persecution, mourning our helplessness at being unable to defend ourselves & the loss of political independence. The tears we shed recently are for the victims of Oslo - killed for a delusion, murdered in the name of a phoney peace. These are particularly bitter tears since it was all for nothing, useless deaths caused by useless politicians. And then there are the future tears we will shed when the next round of attacks begin, when because of foolish delusions & political self-interest, more Jews lose their lives. And possibly even more tears when we mourn the end of our country caused by unrealistic day-dreamers & corrupt politicians. These will be the bitterest tears of all.
3. Liberated Jerusalem from whom???
Palestinian   (02.23.08)
It does not make sense... Where were Israelis to liberate Jerusalem from the Crusaders??
4. #3, Liberated from arab occupiers
David ,   Boston, USA   (02.23.08)
Jerusalem is the holy capital of Israel. The Temple Mount is the Holy of Holies. The fact that Muslims still occupy and desecrate the Temple Mount on a daily basis is another example that Jerusalem is not 100% free. When Muslims leave the Temple Mount it will be 100% free. Arabs/Muslims are invaders of Jerusalem. While Jews are willing to share our holy city, we can not accept its occupation of or holy sites by foreigners (Arabs/Muslims) or anyone else any longer. It was partially liberated in 67, where Jews are now free to pray at the Kotel. When the Temple Mount is free also, Jerusalem will be totally liberated.
5. tears
alexa dahn ,   bangor ireland   (02.23.08)
So it was 'extreme' for Jews in Roman occupied Israel to revolt against 'the abomination in the Temple' and thus cause its destruction and the great diaspora? If the world would similarly choose God and integrity instead of mammon it would not be in the state it's in today.
6. Liberated from illegal occupiers
charles ,   petach tikva   (02.23.08)
7. Islamic interest in the Temple Mount starts in 1967.
Jean Van Daem ,   Metula   (02.23.08)
Jerusalem simply never held any sanctity for the muslims themselves, but only for the Jews in their domain. It can be seen that significant Islamic interest in the Temple Mount does not precede the Six-Day War. The 13th century Arab biographer Yakut noted: «Mecca is holy to muslims; Jerusalem is holy to the Jews». PLO leader Yassir Arafat and the Arabs claimed the Holy Jewish Temple Mount and Jerusalem based upon one extraordinarily huge lie told over and over again. The truth is simple Jerusalem is Jewish and should never be devided again as described at : http://israelagainstterror.blogspot.com/2007/12/myths-and-facts-about-jerusalem-and.html
8. To David, #4
Palestinian   (02.23.08)
David, the Arabic speaking people of Palestine are descendents of the semitic people who lived in Palestine from the early days of receorded history... They are not invaders... The fact that they are no practicing Judaism does not mean that they should go out! Finally, Herod's the Great was Arab, Canaanites were of Arabian origina, Aramaic the Language that dominated Palestine was spoken by the people of this region and Palestine, and seamlessly became todays's Arabic... The Arabic character is Nabatean Aramic in origin... The notion that Arabs has nothing to with Palestine is prejuidice and nonsense... Arabia starts from Yemen, and ends in the Syrian Desert.... Palestine included. On another point, Palestinians are by far the most people who are genetically relatd to the ancient Hebrews and Israelites that you cherish... From Judiasm, to Christianity and Islam, From Aramiac to Arabic, the history of Palestine cannot be sumarized the way you did. Finally, the temple mount is holy for Muslims for the same reason it is holy for you... Muslims rebuilt the sites of worship used by Abraham and his sons.... One is in Mecca, and the other was in Jerusalem... al-Aqsa mosque where the Dome of the Rock stands, is not a Casino or anything else that you might call filthy... It is an honorable site! God bless you David... Stay open minded...
9. Crusaders massacred Jews, Muslims alike!
Zoli ,   Hungary   (02.23.08)
In 1099: Once the Crusaders had breached the outer walls and entered the city almost every inhabitant of Jerusalem was killed over the course of that afternoon, evening and next morning. Muslims, Jews, and even a few of the Christians were all massacred with indiscriminate violence.
10. Crocodile tears
Chanalau, Tova ,   London, UK   (02.23.08)
The only tears that duplicitous woman is likely to shed are pretend-tears of the style of Hillary Clinton, designed to help their political advancement by means of the sympathy vote.
11. Many tears from Arab terror
Ilan ,   Ariel   (02.23.08)
Because of Arab terror many tears have been shed. More important than those tears though is to remember that negotiating with murderers will never bring peace.
12. Tears of today and tomorrow
Eitan ,   Israel   (02.23.08)
Let's focus on them, shall we? It's the best way to honor the tears of the past! If our ancestors heard that there are less tears on the western wall shed now than in their times, they would be more happy than if we told them that we keep a steady tear flow in their honor. How to do it I don't know, security measures, diplomacy or new creative ideas, whatever more likely to work, but please let's focus more on the tears of the living than the tears of the dead. If the tears of the dead remain such a big priority, it must distract from our constructive view on the present issues. And let's start worrying less about keeping everything in the spirit of the glorious past, and focus on making prosperous present instead, which, if achived, will enter the history as even more glorious past. Do you think king David worried too much about the past? Or king Salomon? I think these dudes were living in the present, and that's why we remember them. (But I am sure I will be corrected on that by some helpful scholar.)
13. #8 Palestinian - Your wrong on all counts.
Terry ,   Eilat, Israel   (02.23.08)
Your account is pure mythology, unsupported by any scientific research, very much a product of the re-writing of history so common in the Muslim world. You have a computer - without much effort you could get a more accurate picture of the history of the region. Even using a source as superficial as Wikepedia will open your eyes.
14. Thanks Ynet for a thoughtful article...Never again!
Boblybo Gilobob ,   usa   (02.23.08)
Never again, should apply to more than just the Shoah. Never again must apply to the Temple Mount. Never again should it fall into anti-Jew hands. It took 2000 years to get it back only to have the temple mount complex turned over to the Wakf, who have denied access and even the right to speak words of prayer in the holiest site of Judaism. They also have allowed the destruction of Solomons stables and have endeavored to destroy all evidence of Jewish history. All of these tears will be nothing compared to the tears of the next Shoah, if Olmert, Livni, Barak and the rest of the G-d-less, Jewish Anti-Jews give it all away again.
15. To #8
Daniel ,   Formerly Israel   (02.23.08)
Arabia did start in yemen, but it reached the Syrian Desert only when the Middle East was conquered by Arab armies and occupied by Arab settlers. Yes, you managed to convert some of the native, remanats of the Israelites, some of the Romans, but the former Roman province of Palestina (known before the Roman conquest as Judea) only became part of Arabia after its conquest by Arab armies. The spread of your culture to a region does not make you native to it, it just means that you occupied it long enough for your culture to take root, and that holds for everybody, including the Jews. Hebrew, is the anglification of the Latinized form of Ephry, meaning "Of The Euphrates River, so if you want to redistribute the land of the Middle East back to its original owners the Arabs will get the Arabian Peninsula, the Jews will get central Iraq, the Greeks will get Turkey, the now extinct Phonecians will get Lebanon, the equally extinct Philistines will get Palestine, the also extinct Ancient Egyptians will get Egypt etc. etc. (absurd isn't it?) Or we can accept that people move and land changes hands and try to develop a set of laws to determine who land belongs to; that's how pre-league-of nations laws of war worked. Land changed owners when it was bought or conquered. Thus when the Romans conquered Judea it became theirs (and they renaimed it Palestina after expelling the Jews). When the Arabs conquered Palestine from the Byzantines it it passed to them. It then went back and forth between them and the Franks (during the Crusades). It then returned to the Arabs untill passing to the Turks and after WWI to the British, who then sold part of it to the Jews, who then conquered (in self-defense by the way) the occupied territories and so now own them. It may not be the ideal way to determine ownership of land but its the only reasonable one.
16. to Palestinian , a distorted history you recall
jared ,   orlando   (02.24.08)
No primary sources of literature concurr with your analysis of the history of that land There are absolutely no direct links by archaeology, genealogy, genetics or otherwise, between modern "palestinians" and any ancient people. That is false They are indeed the invaders many centuries after the hebrews. You analysis is as laughable as it is absurd. Herod was a jew, history records him as a jew , archaeology as well. Canaanites were of arabian origin? Are you smoking something? The pals today are of Arab , not canaanite descent, from countries ranging from morocco to Iraq and syria. They began to call themselves Palestinians in the 60s , as a way to delegitimize the existance of Israel. Up until then, Arabs were perfectly happy to refer to themselves as such. The Philistines were a people who settled on the Israeli coast from the island of Crete, before the coming of the Hebrews, and disappeared ages ago, at least since the time of King David. The Canaanites as well. The Philistines were not Arabs nor even Semites, they were most closely related to the Greeks originating from Asia Minor and Greek localities. They did not speak Arabic. They had no connection, ethnic, linguistic or historical with Arabia or Arabs The statement that todays Palestinians are descended from the ancient Canaanites and Palestinians is one I have heard the Palestinians adamantly claim often. The accusation itself is designed to give the Palestinians a method of nullifying the Jewish land rights claim to Israel by giving themselves a claim that predates the Jewish claim. Jews have fought to regain Israel since it was taken by force by the Romans in 135CE and subsequently renamed "Palestine" inorder to insult Jews by naming it after their worst historical enemies. The Jewish battle to regain control over Israel is documented well enough that there is scarcely a century since 135 CE without at least one messianic attempt or revolt within Israel itself against occupying powers. This situation continued until Jews finally regained control of some of their historic homeland in 1948. The Palestinian claim by comparison suddenly appears in recent times. If the Palestinians are descended from the Philistines and Canaanites, I can find no post biblical historical documentation of Canaanite or Philistine attempts to regain control of Canaan. The lack of documentation of any continuous Canaanite or Philistine people after the bible however, is not sufficient proof to discount the Palestinian claims. There is also a complete lack of archaelogical evidence In fact, Canaan itself was a "Bronze Age culture and country in what is now Israel, the West Bank and Gaza, Jordan, and the southern portions of Syria and Lebanon; first occupied about 3300 BC, evidence shows occupation of the vicinity up to 550 BC, including a 300 year period of Egyptian rule." 3 Canaanites, in the Old Testament, original inhabitants of the land of Canaan. According to the Book of Judges, the Israelites, during the 2nd millennium BC or earlier, gradually subjugated the Canaanite cities. By the end of the reign of Solomon, king of Israel, the Canaanites had virtually been assimilated into the Hebrew people, among whom they appear to have exerted a reactionary religious influence. Those canaanites who were not assimilated are widely considered to have died out long ago. And, fyi, the canaanites at their peak were a scattered group of towns and villages who settled only portions of what is now called the holy land . Finally, although no evidence whatsoever has been discovered, some put forth this theory of the origin of the canaanites out of arabia. Show the physical evidence and there is a case. As of now , there is none.
17. to Palestinian 2
jared ,   orlando   (02.24.08)
Finally, regarding arabic: The rise of the arabic to where it is today is primarily linked to the rise of islam in the 7th century AD, not earlier. Before the appearance of islam, arabic was a minor member of the southern branch of the semitic language family, used by a small number of largely nomadic tribes in the arabian peninsula Regardless, hebrew , not aramaic dominated the region of the holy land long before aramaic, which became the dominant language much later, primarily as the chief dialect of ancient persia. And, if you have read any of this , the transition of arabic from an infant tongue to the dialect it is now is anything but "seamless" The pals are Arabs, and there is no evidence of any connection to the canaanites as stated by the overwhelming majority of the academic community. Finallly, because im tired of addressing your inaccuracies, the assertion that the pals are the most genetically related to the ancient hebrews and israelites is as absurd as it is unfounded. I am actually a geneticist and microbiologist and the primary literature does not support such a conclusion at all.
18. To Daniel #8
Palestinian   (02.24.08)
There are Arabs in Syria 1000 years before Islam started in central Arabia.... There were Arabs in Jordan and Palestine, called Nabateans, since 600 B.C... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ghassanids http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nabatean http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arabia Bernard Lewis mentions in his book The Arabs in History: "According to this, Arabia was originally a land of great fertility and the first home of the Semitic peoples. Through the millennia it has been undergoing a process of steady desiccation, a drying up of wealth and waterways and a spread of the desert at the expense of the cultivable land. The declining productivity of the peninsula, together with the increase in the number of the inhabitants, led to a series of crises of overpopulation and consequently to a recurring cycle of invasions of the neighbouring countries by the Semitic peoples of the peninsula. It was these crises that carried the Assyrians, Aramaeans, Canaanites (including the Phoenicians), and finally the Arabs themselves into the Fertile Crescent."[3] http://www.palestinefacts.org/pf_early_palestine_first_arabs.php http://www.britannica.com/eb/article-9040191/Herod Herod. Encyclopædia Britannica Online. Encyclopædia Britannica (2007). Retrieved on 2007-07-27. “born 73 BC died March/April, 4 BC, Jericho, Judaea byname Herod the Great, Latin Herodes Magnus Roman-appointed king of Judaea ... his father, Antipater, was an Edomite (an Arab from the region between the Dead Sea and the Gulf of Aqaba)” This is history... be objective.
19. Giving ANY land to arabs guarantees violence from them.
Bunnie Meyer ,   Santa Monica,CA USA   (02.24.08)
20. Memory
Joe ,   Israel   (02.24.08)
Individual people tend to remember better the recent past, as for example Mrs. Livni and Meir Shalev. Yerushalayim for the Jewish people is first and foremost part of our collective memory extending back thousands of years. The memory of Jerusalem isn't only about the soldiers buried on Har Herzl but it"s also about the thousands buried on Har Hazeitim over the ages. It is in a sense a betrayal of our history to only remember the present -and to only remember what happened forty years ago- is to ignore the past. Jewish history did not begin sixty years ago.
21. Western Wall
Millicent ,   Israel   (02.24.08)
Why should Israel divide Jerusalem? Did the United States give back all the land it stole from the Native Americans,did the British give back selfgovernment to Northern Ireland,or Scotland?Isn't Russia trying to get back the nations that broke away from it? SO until America gives back all Native American Lands,and England gives Northern Ireland its independence , don't talk about dividing Jerusalem, after all what's good for the goose is good for the Gander!
22. To 18
(02.24.08)
Please note two of the websites that are recommended reading from Palestine Facts... http://www.israelnationalnews.com/Articles/Article.aspx/747 http://www.eretzyisroel.org/~jkatz/meaning.html You're not so sharp to use sources that are WORKING AGAINST YOU Secondly Herod, was indeed arab, but one who CONVERTED to Judaism. His entire basis was trying to expand the land of Israel and was constantly frustrated that he would not be accepted by the semites (i.e Jewish population) there. The fact is you making complete historical non-sense, aswell as the fact that Aramaic is more closely related to HEBREW than Arabic.
23. Palestinian
israeli ,   israel   (02.24.08)
for someone claiming to be the descendant of ancient Hebrews, you surely take a lot of trouble to destroy any archeological piece of evidence. Not only that, but people are proud to preserve and display their roots, even if those roots are quite remote from their present day culture. I mean, wherever one travels one sees genuine effort to preserve traces of ancient civlizations - indigenous, Roman, Greek, etc. It is only the Palestinians who in an effort to preserve their ancient Hebrew heritage bulldoze the Temple Mount, burn and vandalize Joseph's tomb, use tombstones for roads and latrines, build gas stations over their anecestors' graveyards. What an original and unique way of honoring one's heritage!
24. simple equation
avrom ,   bet shemesh   (02.24.08)
has she not learnt the simple equation that every concession every "peace move" has led to jewish blood and tears and whenever Israel has said no and destroyed our enemies a hint of a smile has crossed our faces but we cried for our dead and wounded but it was less dead and wounded than in the "peace process"
25. We will remember the tears livni will shed
jason white ,   afula,israel   (02.24.08)
at her trial and before she is locked up forever.
26. To Jason White
Avraham ,   NYC   (02.24.08)
Jason, I agree with you on Tzipi Livni and would extend your premise to the rest of the criminal political establishment ruling Israel. For their crimes against the Jewish people, including negotiations with various elements of the terrorist PLO organization in violation of existing Israeli laws (including that on Jerusalem), they all should rot in jails.
27. Livni betrays their memory she has no right to say anything
zionist forever   (02.25.08)
She is betraying the memory of all those paratroopers when she and Olmert and Barak make plans to sell all the jewish land liberated by those brave men in 1967. As for Jerusalem we will be giving the arabs all the land that those soilders died to capture if we are really lucky we will keeo the kotel because certainly the Temple Mount and probably all of the Old City other than the Jewish Quarter which is what Barak offered Arafat. All the brave men & women in Israeli politics are either dead or retired today they are all corrupt and dont think about Israel the cancer known as oslo has been bred into Israeli politics and the very idea that we might want any solution to this problem that doesnt involve createing a terrorists state and giveing them Jerusalem is allmost considered treason. Oslo doesnt mean peace it means surrender on every front and all we want in return is the arabs say Israel has a right to exist. The palestians and Syrians only demand these things because they know Israel is run by appologetic fools who are willing to give it all for nothing. Israel has the land, Israel is stronger than its naighbors, Israel is richer than many of its naighbors, Israel has powerfull allies in the form of the US. In theory Israel is the one who should be setting the terms of any kind of peace process but we are so weak we say ok the arabs who are in the weaker position and in no position to force us into taking their position but we will let them make the rules and we will do as we are told if they just mention the mythrical P word. Peace cannot come at any price we need to have a little self respect an for a change stand up for our own interests and say this is how we intend to run things from now on accept it as your in the weaker position and we can make progress or reject it and you continue to suffer. WHY DO WE GIVE INTO TERROR?
28. Livni references paratroopers because
Susan ,   Israel   (02.25.08)
for her, Jewish history starts in 1948. Or maybe a bit earlier with the Holocaust. Secular Zionism ignores thousands of years of Jewish history, to the detriment of us all.
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