Judith, no one is free from lust. Jews pray three times a day in for assistance in combating it. The Shema says: “Do not lust after your heart and after your eyes, WHICH LEAD YOU ASTRAY”. I’m afraid that it is not just the Charedi community who are “so pre-occupied with sex and women”. Quite on the contrary, it is the mizrachi and secular who constantly float modestly laws, the very foundation of the Jewish religion. It is quite understandable for extra barriers to be out up to prevent intermingling, especially when the bus is packed and could lead to rather intimate moments with your neighbors wife. Although I personally am for casual separate man/women gravitation, I am totally against forceful intervention. I believe the halacha only states that it is forbidden for a man to sit or walk between two women and it should be up to the person who is being offended to relocate, not the other way round.

While it is humillating, and should be done away with, I would not use the "apartheid " word There is mostly a ratio of 4 women per one man, so you can imagine what the rear of the bus looks like. Tens of smashed women in a small area. Sometimes there are not even enough seats to let an old or pregnant woman sit down. All this while teenage boys have empty seats next to them And who likes travelling at the back? makes many people trow up

I am sure the Charedi population would be all too happy to hire the services of alternate bus companies given the chance. The only problem is that Egged holds a monopoly over bus service in Jerusalem and other cities and therefore prevents private bus companies from operating in those areas. Instead of bashing Charedim, address the real source of the problem!

After a brief perusal of Eruvin (which is the source of the quote), it seems that the context is that of the rabbis trying to figure out, if Adam HaRishon was a hermaphrodite ("zachar v'n'kevah bara otam"), whether Adam's male face was forward or if the female face was. So, if you can figure out how "walk behind a lion before walking behind a woman" applies to women riding buses, please do so. (Not too many lions riding the Egged bus!)

I'm a somewhat older somewhat fat woman. I got on a NON-separate seating bus today which was pretty full and all the passengers were men. A young man got up and offered me his seat, but I refused because I didn't want to sit next to the other man in the seat. (Because I'm fat, there would be contact between us.) At that point, two men got out of a different seat and each found a seat with a man elsewhere. I sat alone until another woman got on. It was all very civilized, tsanua, and even polite. On this particular busline I've often seen people sitting alone willingly (without being asked) move to share a seat with another of the same sex in order to allow someone of the opposite sex to sit. It can work --- without problems.

Egged is a public company, operates buses throughout non-Haredi areas and is open to all. We are not talking about modesty here, we are talking about Haredi men, their desire to dominate the non-Haredi and impose their views on the rest of the country.If they want segregated buses, let them hire a private bus company that runs in addition to Egged, and let the buses be clearly marked as such so that - heaven forbid - a non-haredi woman will not get on by mistake. And why should Haredi women put up with violence from these scum who have the audacity to call themselves religious? Isn't it eenough that we hear of Haredi violence in the home, Haredi paedophilia and haredi sex crimes, without having to witness it on OUR buses - meant for all of us. Shame on them all.

Shame on you Madeleine. We don’t need scum like you dictating how haredim should or should not behave. Rehovaot is full of sex maniacs and pedophiles. Jewish law historically demands modest conduct and prevention of intermingling between the sexes. It is you secular idiots who have made mixed buses the norm. We will not be belittled by you and your perverted ways. Go and live in Phuket you harediophobe.

Why are you worrying about Charedi women? On the whole, Charedi women are very happy with their status and marriages. They, too, want to travel on separate seating buses, otherwise they would travel on regular buses. And, uh, I would recommend you worrying about sex crimes in the secular society, which have reached very worrisome stages in both homes and the educational system before judging a society in which the amount of these crimes pales in comparison to what is heard daily through the media. Clean up your own house before judging others....

Please elaborate on these educational system sex crimes. I am dying to learn about them.

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/956462.html

Charidi women happy with their life ? When they have someone to complain to , they complain , and cry . But in their community , nobody listen and certainly don't believe them . [ first hand information ] Regarding sex offences , in this community you don't talk about it , so it does'nt exist for you . It was the same with the drugs , inexisting they said . Till they opened a drug clinic for the ultra orthodox , so it was an existing fact .

that's the name you deserve

You claim first hand information, Charles, but I beg to differ with you. There are many Charedi psychologists, clinical social workers (two of my immediate family members are Charedi clinical social workers), and marriage counselors. No society is problem free, but help is available for those in need. Nobody claims these problems do not exist, they do, but in much lower percentages than other societies.

You claim first hand information, Charles, but I beg to differ with you. There are many Charedi Rabbis that provide counseling services, psychologists, clinical social workers (two of my immediate family members are Charedi clinical social workers), and marriage counselors. No society is problem free, but help is available for those in need. Nobody claims these problems do not exist, they do, but in much lower percentages than other societies.

When i lived begalut , i had a good friend , a female Jewish doctor . Great for the many ultra orthodox women , i have'nt to explain why . Once we were talking and i said : those charidi women look so happy . Her answer : Charles , how wrong you are , in my consulting room they can talk freely , many of them complain , some are even crying . If as you say there are social workers , and i believe you , specially for them . If Rabbanim have to counsel people , this all means that there is a need for this not ? Are'nt there offices from the "misrad harevacha" ? PS , my name and place are true , if you want , you can come and see .

Where did the Haredi communicty get its marching orders about " segregation between women and men " ? From God himself ? There is nothing more dangerous than "ill digested religion ". There is ONLY one entity who can say what is right and not right : God ! The Haredi remind me of the priest in the Temple, supposed to live in modesty, purity and poverty, who where in fact living on rich houses covered with ceramics....What a pity ! thes folks look more and more like their bearded cousins, the other side of the fence that is !

Hello Mr know it all. You views are ill digested. If anyone can be right about what God wants from us, it is the haredim not Hiram from Neve Ativ!

if anyone can be right , it's certainly not this jojo of London .

There are many Rabbis who counsel , counsellors , and so on . You wrote . If they are many , for what ? for a small quantity of problems ? No , there are many family problems to resolve . They stay together , a divorcee is not at all appreciated in this community . "es past zech nischt"

No society is problem free, but help is available for those in need. Nobody claims these problems do not exist; they do, but in lower percentages than other societies. Yes, Charles, there is a need for counseling Charedi people. People are not perfect or problem free. What bothers me is that you base you comments about a whole society on one Doctor’s comment. I am sure that the same scenario is true for all societies. Doctors worldwide are recipients to patients' confidences. However, you must be incredibly naive to judge a whole society based on one Doctor's comments. What I would love for you and all other Charedi bashers is not to judge the Chareidi society based on media reports and minority opinions…but I suppose that this is only a dream… Shavua Tov

Unfortunately, we live in a society today where marriage is practically as disposable as disposable diapers - that is, if the couple even bothers to marry. Divorce is one of the worse situations that can happen within families, and there are many therapists that believe that is should be the last resort to save a failing marriage. Much can be done to help a couple stay in a marriage, if they would only desire to do so. Children are the victims of divorce, and many times are traumatized for life. Couples should consider divorce very seriously before opting for this choice. Yes, it takes hard work, but aren't the spouse and kids worth it?

Another steroetype concocted by charles. In his community everything is appreciated, even prositiutes. Why? because his community has no values. You know why charles is so full of venom against the frummers?? He is jealous of their more wholsesome, meaningful lifestyle and is too arrogant and stubborn to change.

Again , you wrote : there are many counsellors ......Many , you wrote , not i . If there are many , it means there is a NEED for so much aid . I agree of course with you that divorce is the last resort . If people divorce that they at least do it in a civilised way , without bashing and telling bad things about the other one to their children . Done in this way , the children will almost not suffer . A divorce can also be successful . i know a couple who live together , without been wed , this for more than 30 years . For them a wedding is only a piece of paper . I don't think that people marry to divorce , why should they marry ? but society has changed . Women are earning their life too , and are not , as in earlier times , bound to a husband for the income he gives . In some societies , the religious , a divorcee is not well received . There was a writing about this somewhere not so long ago . And for this reason , the family pressure , the relations , women avoid to ask a divorce , and suffer in silence . I will not say that here or there , there are more or less problems . I don't think that you have correct numbers to say this .

i do not judge the Charidi society on some news . I will certainly not bash the whole charidi world if one of them commits a crime . He is the criminal , not because he is charidi . I will not forget that some of the GREAT Israeli NGO's , Yad Sara and Ezer Mitsyion for example , where founded by Charidi people . Not to forget Zaka and their difficult work , also a Mitzwa for them but this does not diminish their great merits . Now , if people , not you , talk in a hatefull way to me , i answer in the same way . You see extreme "people" are treated in a "extreme" way , it's this that they deserve .

Kosher busses are appalling. and discrimitory. If the Haredi don't want to sit with the PUBLIC on public transportation let them buy Orthodox Only Busses.