I went to the link you provided and all you have done is plagiarized they’re website and regurgitated a bunch of text that they too have NOT proven. So I say that the Torah was a plagiarized retelling of the Epic of Gilgamesh and then you turn around and plagiarize that website as your so-called proof. Dear me, there has got to be at least one monkey out there with a brain. Wow, way to prove the truth to me buddy, well done. Go back to sleep donkey.

I see you respond to 30 but didn't respond to #28.... And your proof.... that The Torah is nothing but a plagiarized retelling of the Epic of Gilgamesh..... I will grant that the Epic of Gilgamesh has similar features....but that does not mean it was plagerized ....there are other variants of that story in ancient times.. the story or poem of the Epic of Gilgamesh covers the General time frame of the Flood of noah ....which is only a small part of the book of Genesis .... Genesis is the first book of 5 that makes up the torah ...your knowlege of bibical history appears to be a wisp in the wind....

Of course my knowledge of biblical history is as you put it ‘appears to be a wisp in the wind.... That’s because I believe that the bible is B.S. (this is my opinion, not fact). And have very little time for it. To use it as the TRUTH and kill people is the act of a Neanderthal mentality. My main argument is that the Jews are KILLING people to take land and they base this claim on an ANCIENT text that IS NOT provable (let me explain this – if we were not there during the actual events neither of us can prove it 100%, for OR against). The world has (perhaps for the worst) moved on. Here in Australia we’re not going to return the majority of the land back to the indigenous aboriginals. The Americans are not going to return a majority of the land back to the native indigenous peoples of North America and so on and so forth all around the world. So what makes the Jews so special? Yes they need somewhere to live, but as we have seen they are not willing to share with the Palestinians. Little by little they take more and more land and they will NOT stop until they have all that they are after – killing if need be as has been demonstrated. And please don’t use the holocaust to say that they deserve the land because six million of them died. Take the Kolyma road also known as the ‘Road of Bones’ in Magadan, Siberia for example where it is estimated that twenty million people died during the construction of the road. This is ONE example of who knows how many throughout history. Let me guess you’ll say it didn’t happen because I don’t have proof. Maybe, but then maybe there have been no genocides or holocausts if that’s your argument. Again what makes the Jews so special? Genocide appears to be a horrible part of the cycle of life, but why should we favor one group over another. It is my contention that no one person is more important than another; that we are ALL human beings and we should ALL be treated with respect. As far as my understanding of Zionism is concerned this is not how the Zionists think.

*Like the palm that produces fruit. AS A CEDAR IN LEBANON HE GROWS.* The Lord's trees are sated, the cedars of Lebanon,* - which He planted. Ps. 104:16 *THE LORD'S TREES IN THE GARDEN OF EDEN (Rashi). PLANTED IN THE HOUSE OF THE LORD, IN THE COURTS OF OUR GOD - - THEY WILL FLOURISH. They will yet grow in old age, fat and fresh will they be. To declare that the Lord is upright, my rock in Whom there is no injustice. Ps. 92:13-16 The praises of a man are that he did not follow the counsel of the wicked, neither did he stand in the way of sinners nor sit in the company of scorners. But his desire is in the law (Torah) of the Lord, and in His law he meditates day and night. He shall be as a tree planted beside rivulets of water, which brings forth its fruit in its season, and its leaves do not wilt, and whatever he does prosper. Not so the wicked, but [they are like chaff that the wind drives away. Therefore, the wicked shall not stand up in judgment, nor shall the sinners in the congregation of the righteous. For the Lord knows the way of the righteous, but the way of the wicked shall perish.* Psalm 1:1-6 Because He knows the way of the righteous, and it is before Him to recognize it constantly; the way of the wicked is hateful to Him, and He removes it from before Him. Therefore, the foot of the wicked will not stand up on the day of judgment, neither shall the sinners be written in the congregation of the righteous.

Quote:Of course my knowledge of biblical history is as you put it ‘appears to be a wisp in the wind.... That’s because I believe that the bible is B.S. (this is my opinion, not fact). And have very little time for it. .... By the statement you make ....you weight the value of your opinion in others eyes.... When I went to school back in the 60s ...I was taught was important to check out the facts before I wrote or spoke somthing ,so my opinion would have a factual basis...thus more weight in the eyes of others.... I recognize on todays opinion boards quazi opinions can be posted and be painted as facts ...But I will chalenge the poster to raise thier standard so factual history will not suffer.... it has been said that an untruth can be said often enough that eventualy many folks will take it as fact... Quote:To use it as the TRUTH and kill people is the act of a Neanderthal mentality. My main argument is that the Jews are KILLING people to take land and they base this claim on an ANCIENT text that IS NOT provable (let me explain this – if we were not there during the actual events neither of us can prove it 100%, for OR against). -------- According to recent demographics only 35% of jews claim orthodoxy of any type ... the rest are largely secular and jew in name only. the current jewish government appears to be largely secular.....and is less likely to use the biblical mandate as it basis for governing.Granted that the orthodox jews do have some influance ... but in issues that is likely to cause political heartburn ,they are forced to take a back seat. It is interesting that when Jerusalem was captuered by the Jews ....the Israeli defense general moshe dyan made sure that the Temple Mount was put back under Moslem control...If what you say above is true why would the Jews return a piece of land that they concider the center piece of thier religion. ... Most of Israels wars with its nieghbors have been defensive in nature and ocassionaly pre-emptive when forces were massed against them and ready to strike. and yes on occasion in the heat of battle some israeli commanders stepped accross the line. But by in large the current situation in israel have been provoked by terror activities of Hamas ,Hisbelah, and Fatah ....Terrorist activities by these organizations is empowered since the inception of the state of Israel by the stated goals in the charters of these organizations to remove the state of israel from the mideast.... Many folks like your self would say Israel has no right to defend itself and it should let Hamas continue to fire qassams indisciminatly at israel and ignore suicidebomers that blowup themselves in the middle masses of israeli citizens...something I might add would be abhorant in your community ....but oh well... the israelis must take it on the chin without complaint....

AND THE WISE MAN ACQUIRES SOULS. Proverbs 11:30 My son, despise not the discipline of the Lord, and do not abhor His chastening, for the Lord chastens the one He loves, as a father placates a son. Fortunate is the man who has found wisdom (TORAH) AND A MAN WHO GIVES FORTH DISCERNMENT, for its commerce is better than the commerce of silver, and its gain is better than fine gold, it is more precious than pearls, and all your desirable things cannot be compared to it. Length of days is in its right hand, in its left hand are riches and honor. Its ways are ways of pleasantness, and all its paths are peace. It is a tree of life for those who grasp it, and those who draw near it are fortunate. My son, let them not depart from your eyes, guard sound wisdom and thought, and they shall be life for your soul, and grace for your neck. Proverbs 3:11-18,21-22 My son, keep My sayings, and hide My commandments with you. KEEP MY COMMANDMENTS AND LIVE, and My instruction וְתוֹרָתִי (TORAH) like the apple of your eyes. Bind them on your fingers, inscribe them on the tablet of your heart. SAY TO WISDOM,* "YOU ARE MY SISTER," and you shall call understanding a kinsman, to guard you from a strange woman, from an alien woman - - who talks smoothly. Proverbs 7:1-5 *The Torah protects us from the forbidden woman, i.e., the Evil Inclination personified - idolatry. You have captivated my heart, my sister (Torah), my bride, you have captivated my heart with one of your eyes... How fair is your love, my sister, my bride, how much better is your love than wine, and the fragrance of your oils than all spices! Your lips drip flowing honey, O bride, honey and milk are under your tongue, AND THE FRAGRANCE OF YOUR GARMENTS IS LIKE THE FRAGRANCE OF LEBANON. Song of Songs 4:9-11 I am come into my garden (the Torah), my sister, my bride, I have gathered my myrrh with my spice, I have eaten my honeycomb with my honey, I have drunk my wine with my milk. Eat, O friends, drink, yea, drink abundantly, O beloved. Song of Songs 5:1 WATER, WINE AND MILK IS METAPHORS FOR THE TEACHINGS OF GOD, TORAH. Thy shoots are a park of pomegranates with precious fruits, henna with spikenard plants, Spikenard and saffron, calamus and cinnamon, with all trees of frankincense myrrh and aloes, with all the chief spices. THOU ART A FOUNTAIN OF GARDENS, A WELL OF LIVING WATERS, AND FLOWING STREAMS FROM LEBANON. Awake, O north wind and come, thou south blow upon my garden, that the spices thereof may flow out. LET MY BELOVED COME INTO HIS GARDEN (the Torah),* - AND EAT HIS PRECIOUS FRUITS. Song of Songs 4:13-16 *If You are there Hashem, my God, the Rock of my salvation - - all (Israel) are there.

Amen

which has no power except in its mouth" (Rashi ) God promises that He will turn this tiny nation, whose only powerlies in the words of Torah and prayer which they "chew" day by day, into a new i.e. (not blunt) threshing instrument that will be BAAL PIPHIYOTH – i.e. it will have an abundance of MOUTHS that will "grind up" the mighty, powerful nations of the earth (Targum on Isaiah 41: 15). KNOW YOUR BIBLE: http://www.azamra.org/NaCh.shtml

As for the comments from Norway, yelling scripture isn’t going to do anything in your favor to persuade me to believe; quite the opposite. To Psalms 83 - I’m going to use a similar argument the neo-cons use in relation to Iran (but in reverse) and say the onus is not on me to disprove the bible but is in fact on you to prove it. It is I that asked the question first, and that question was for the bible to be proven as truth/fact. No one asked me to disprove the bible – too late. How do you prove a text document and its contents/message that were written thousands of years ago to be truth/fact? Something may be the truth and some people may believe in it and some may not. And then again, something may not be true and some people might still choose to believe in it while others do not. Is a truth to millions or even hundreds of millions of people who say/believe/have faith that it is true in reality the truth? Is it fact? Perhaps the bible is the truth and perhaps it is not. The bible may in fact be true and you are correct. It may on the other hand not be the truth and I may be correct. We could have this discussion until the end of time and neither of us may be willing to change our opinion/belief. “When I went to school back in the 60s ...I was taught it was important to check out the facts before I wrote or spoke something ,so my opinion would have a factual basis...thus more weight in the eyes of others....”. Sorry, but I must have missed the comment/s you left on this page in which you stated the facts proving the bible as the truth. I noticed you used the word – opinion. You and I could quite possibly read the exact same dozen or so books and more than likely be of a differing ‘opinion’, hence our dilemma right here, you believe it to be factual, I do not. I have not seen enough corroborating evidence to prove the bible as truth/fact. “According to recent demographics only 35% of Jews claim orthodoxy of any type”, so doesn’t that make it worse! What does the other 65% of the people of Israel use to base their claim to the land on? “It is interesting that when Jerusalem was captured by the Jews ....the Israeli defense general Moshe Dyan made sure that the Temple Mount was put back under Moslem control”, I assume this was to keep the peace at that time. But as we have seen Israel has been ‘Reclaiming’ land over the years. Surely the ‘supposed’ temple area of Solomon, including the Temple Mount portion, has to be reclaimed for the fulfillment of ‘greater’ Israel? Bit by bit, little by little!!!!! From another point of view, (hint – hint – nudge - nudge), if I came around to your house and bulldoze it to the ground, would you just step aside and allow me to do it after I tell you that the land is going to be returned to indigenous peoples that may have once occupied those lands thousands of years ago. You wouldn’t try and stop me or have someone else try and stop me? You wouldn’t ask me to show you proof that the lands once belonged to these new/ (old) settlers? You would just accept my word at face value and let me demolish your house and tell you, you must leave. See you latter, that’s it, this land is for a new settlement for old inhabitants, so get on your donkey and take a hike. If I took the land forcefully from you, you wouldn’t retaliate in any way, you would just walk away?

“Many folks like yourself would say Israel has no right to defend itself and it should let Hamas continue to fire qassams indiscriminately at Israel and ignore suicide bombers that blowup themselves in the middle of Israeli citizens”. By saying “Many folks like yourself would say”, is a presumption. By using the word ‘would’ you are claiming to know me. I don’t think we have ever met, and I don’t think you know me. It does however sound as though you have stereotyped me. (Sounds as though I have hit a nerve). Try telling that to a six year old Palestinian girl – ah, hang on, you can’t do that because she’s dead. Death is a two sided street. Did I not say in may last post that everyone should have the right of respect and that the Jewish people have the right to a place to live? Did I not talk about sharing? The Arabs and the Jews were able to cohabitate that region prior to 1948. It wasn’t until the Zionists came along that things started to change. It is clear that we are going to have to agree to disagree and that we may some day find out once and for all if the bible is truth on not; though I think that’s unlikely. Yet if it is the truth, I will admit my errors and accept that I was wrong. I do believe that it will take a pretty impressive event to convince me! Perhaps I should study the bible a lot more and perhaps you should study things such as the USS Liberty as new information has come to light. I notice you didn’t mention anything about the Zionists! Interesting!

WHO SAW ANYTHING LIKE THESE? IS A LAND BORN IN ONE DAY? IS A NATION BORN AT ONCE, THAT ZION BOTH EXPERIENCED BIRTH PANGS AND BORE HER CHILDREN? Isaiah 66:8 Israel, a nation that had not really existed as a separate nation for 2,500 years, was declared a sovereign state by an act of the U. N. on May 14, 1948. THE NATION WAS BORN IN A DAY. Who would believe that Isaiah’s words prophesied more than 2,500 years ago, - when Israel was being displaced from her land - THAT IT WOULD COME TRUE IN OUR TIME? KNOW YOUR BIBLE: http://www.azamra.org/NaCh.shtml

Norway, your responding to yourself and you want to be taken seriously. Come on! I'm over this.

I tried to post this several times under my other screen name... Quote 35: 33: That’s because I believe that the bible is B.S. (this is my opinion, not fact). And have very little time for it. ... Quote 18 :The Torah is nothing but a plagiarized retelling of the Epic of Gilgamesh ... Quote :To Psalms 83 - I’m going to use a similar argument the neo-cons use in relation to Iran (but in reverse) and say the onus is not on me to disprove the bible but is in fact on you to prove ..... By your own statement .... you have very little time for it .... but then go on to say the torah is nothing but a plagiarized retelling of the Epic of Gilgamesh.... which implies you either analized it and came up with that conclusion or you are winging it with an opinon from some where esle ... the fact that the flood story (epic of gilamesh) is less than 2% of the torah certainly is not a basis for judging the whole torah as a plagerized telling of the epic of gilamesh. ----- Quote:33:Of course my knowledge of biblical history is as you put it ‘appears to be a wisp in the wind.... That’s because I believe that the bible is B.S. (this is my opinion, not fact). And have very little time for it. I could give you tons of material that would substanuate the validity and accurcy of the Bible but because of your predisposal that the bible is B.S. and you have very little time for it ..I suspect it would largly be ignored and discounted .... but a good starting point would be a book writtin in 1972 By Josh McDowell "Evidence That Demands a Vertict" it is a resource book that look into the panarama of available evidence for the faith and the bible. Another gentleman Lee Strobel also covers similar areas as McDowell www.leestrobel .com/ both of these Gentlemen started out as atheist to disprove the bible and ended up supporting it... ----- Quote 40: It is clear that we are going to have to agree to disagree and that we may some day find out once and for all if the bible is truth on not; though I think that’s unlikely. Yet if it is the truth, I will admit my errors and accept that I was wrong. I do believe that it will take a pretty impressive event to convince me! --- that may be true ...hopfuly we each will grow in our understanding and knowledge... Quote 40:perhaps you should study things such as the USS Liberty as new information has come to light ...interesting.... I use to work with a Electonics tech who was a sailor on the sister ship of the USS Liberty (USS belmont).... He shared that the Librety was givin a warning to leave the area by the israelis but due to her boilers being down she was not able to move...and because the israelis didn't want thier activities to be leaked to the arabs they strafed the libertys communication ststems... my friend said also that the ships transmiters may have had problems pior to the israelis attacking it ... Sometimes in War combatants make decisions that are not appropiate but think necessary at the time... My friend also told me that on the sister ship to the liberty ,his duty station was where one of the israeli munitions went thru on the liberty....he had talked with someone from the liberty who shared this info .....Psalms 83

Our Sages expounded (Vayikra Rabbah 30): THE FRUIT OF A BEAUTIFUL TREE: This refers to Israel, for just as the ESROG has both taste and scent, so too are there Jews who possess both Torah learning and good deeds. The Esrog (citron) resembles the heart, the seat of our emotions. THE BRANCH OF THE PALM TREE: This refers to Israel, for just as the LULAV has taste, (I.E., DATES) but lacks scent, so too are there Jews who possess Torah learning - but lack good deeds. The Lulav represents the spine, from where our actions emanate. A BOUGH FROM THE "AVOS" TREE: This refers to Israel, for just as the HADAS has scent but lacks taste, so too are there Jews who possess good deeds but lack Torah learning. The hadasim (myrtle leaves), represents the eyes, Hadassah is the feminized version of the word for “myrtle,” HADAS. The myrtle leaf is shaped like an eye, representing God’s watchful eye over Hadassah (Esther, her Persian name ) and over His chosen people. WILLOWS OF THE STREAM: This refers to Israel, for just as the ARAVAH lacks both taste and scent, so too are there Jews who lack both Torah learning and good deeds. The Aravot (willow branches), symbolizes the lips, our speech. WHAT DOES GOD DO WITH THEM? To destroy them is unthinkable. Rather, God says, "BIND THEM TOGETHER IN ONE BOND, AND THEY WILL - - ATONE FOR EACH OTHER!" Whoever fulfills the mitzvah of the four species as prescribed at Succot, brings about peace and harmony among his fellow Jews, feels in his own heart a love for all of his people, brings himself and all the nation of Israel under the protection of Divine providence, causes the Shechinah (God's presence) to become exalted, AND GLORIFIES THE NAME OF GOD.

Every Day Of Succot. By holding all four together, we symbolize the need for a person to utilize all his faculties in the service of God. The hadasim and aravot are bound with the lulav. One holds the etrog in left hand and the lulav, hadasim, - and aravot in the other. The following blessing is said : Praised are You, Lord our God, Ruler of the Universe, Who has made us holy with His commandments and commanded us concerning the waving of the lulav. And the species are shaken in all six directions (east, south, west, north, up and down) TO SYMBOLIZE THAT GOD IS EVERYWHERE. Each day during Sukkot, there are special processions in the Synagogue around the Torah. The etrog and lulav are held during these processions. These processions, are called Hoshanas because during the procession prayers with the refrain hoshana (so save now , please save) is recited, This Hoshanah: As You saved the Terebinths, is recited after each day's circuit (except on the Sabbath), CONTAINS VARIOUS POETICAL ALLUSIONS TO THE EXODUS FROM EGYPT (FROM IDOLATRY, SLAVERY, Hosea 11:1-3) AND OTHER INCIDENTS OF GOD'S SALVATION OF ISRAEL, AND PLEADS THAT WE BE GRANTED SIMILAR SALVATION: In today's world only Israel, the Jews, recognize Hashem as the One and Only, thus He is our God, but after the Final Redemption, all the world will acknowledge that Hashem is One. And HaShem shall be King over all the earth, in that day shall HaShem be One, and His name one. Zechariah 14:9 As You saved the terebinths in Lud along with Yourself when You went forth to save the nation - so save now. As You saved the nation and its leaders who sought the salvations of God - so save now. As You saved the multitudes of hosts and with them the hosts of angels - so save now. As You saved pure ones from the house of slavery... Gracious One, from those who forced manual labor upon them - so save now. Amen. For a seven day period you shall live in booths. Every resident among the Israelites shall live in booths, in order that your ensuing generations should know that I had the children of Israel live in booths - - when I took them out of the land of Egypt. I am the Lord, your God. And Moses told the children of Israel these laws of the Lord's appointed holy days... Leviticus 23:42-44

The words you share are very beutiful and meaningful for those that have an understanding of the faith....but will more than likely fly over the head of those that are strugling over the confusion that life and society has delivered.... the better path starts with prayer...then meet the needs of those you are praying for....sometimes on the internet that is not always possible but in the case of boards of this nature ... giving a reasonable explanation to thier objections to the faith. some times folks will raise objections to the faith not because the factual issue they raise is absolutly true but rather they have a spritual issue that they don't want to confront. you can present perfect evidence to someone that has determined they will not concider any evidence from those promoting the church or Judism...and unless they are willing set aside the bias and take time to fairly concider the evidence...the rejection of it will continue. it is entirely a problem of the will. there is a ton of archaelogical material that substaniates the bibical record .... but for those that reject the message of the bible concidering and accepting that kind of evidence is threating... possibly meaning they might have to concider the message presented by the bible....