Only now after being on the receiving end of ultra Orthodox attitudes to the different streams of Judaism can the National(ist) Religious camp begin to understand what we, the reform and Conservative Movements go through in Israel. The NR camp's violation of the commandment "do not do unto others what is disliked by you" is now coming home to roost. You will now discover who your friends are and who your opponents are. Clue, they do not wear big black hats and long black coats, but they do wear the olive drab uniforms of the IDF.

Can you blame the Orthodox Rabbis for annulling Rabbi Druckman's conversions?

Do any Haredim give donations to religious Zionist Yeshivas? Of course not! Whenever being invited to a primarily religious Zionist event they ask that everything be given a Hechsher from Ultra Orthodox instutions; but when national religious Jews attend their events do they get a national-religious hechsher? Of course not! They oppose the very existence of our state, yet they have no problem living in it, accepting its benefits and living off the taxes of its hard-working citizens; at the same time they have the nerve to run for our parliament and tell us how to run the country! The Haredi motto: Respect me, but I won't respect you. And its about time we stood up to them.

"Only now after being on the receiving end of ultra Orthodox attitudes to the different streams of Judaism can the National(ist) Religious camp begin to understand what we, the reform and Conservative Movements go through in Israel. " Wrong conclusion, never said, implied or even suggested from this article National religious are Orthodox in every single way and wont put up with anything less. And probably wont put up with "holier than thou" stringencies from the hareidi camp either I don't want to tell what to think, just that you inducted the wrong message from the article

I agree with rabbi Gross,talibans ultraorthodox do not have the "orthodox monopoly" and of course Tora monopoly,they are an hypocrite group.I suggest to ultraorthodox institutions refuse money donations from whom they not consider "kosher" people...

The Orthodox ask for a hechsher from an "Ultra" Orthodox Kashruth Org. because they usually can not rely on the Hechsher of the Chief Rabbinate for being to lax. Ask the National Religious (my emphasis is on Religious) who are also careful about what they eat... I got news for you: the "Ultras" donate to Mafdal-Yeshivahs as well, any Torah Institution is dear to them! With all due respect to these Institutions, the fact is, that the true Torah Giants are as a bulk gratuates of so called "black" Yeshivoth".

I don't have it really clear what drove Rabbi Gross to arrive at the conclusion that the National Religious camp should divorce itself from the hareidi camp, or not to throw money in that direction. If the sole motive was the convertions issue, then I'm sorry to tell him that probably most of the National Camp feels convertions is a matter to be taken seriously. And that something should be done when this process obviously failed and rendered thousands of "converts" living outside halacha. Nothing wrong with trying to correct that. I personally stopped my contributions to Hareidi Yeshivot (as I used to do) and definatelly do not eat badats produce during Shmita. Not because I love the "combina" done by the rabbanut, which I don't, but because I see no point in supporting Arab families ,from where most of badats produce comes from. In other words, I do not feel inclined to accentuating any more divitions within am Israel in general and within the orthodox in particular- specially if the triggering factor is no other than having easy convertions. Hareidim have a tendency to make a point at showing all the humbrot they take upon themselves, and make sure everyone notices them. Not my problem, that segregates them, not US. Therefore I see some good point in "boycotting" their self imposed "holier than thou" instituitons be it kashrus, dress code, yeshivot ect Going back to the rabbincal courts issue, I always found it anoying that no (or little?) dayanim from the national camp happen to work there, (or be part of the ruling rabbanut families). Again, if R Gross' agenda is the convertion issue, I will not be so happy to see them advance it. They should put their energies in Women's Rights, Agunot and the likes. Hareidi dayanim do nothing in these respects and it is exactly here where Ra Gross' talents and energies are more welcomed. Conversely, many hareidim are becoming more Nationalistic, less wraped in their world and do see the positive in the National religious camp while not a few are serving in the army. So we should take advantage of this partial openess from their part too. Bottom line- a major cut for hareidi yeshivot sould come from the *goverment* and soon. That will put an end to their haughtiness and bring them back to earth.

Get off it. How stupid can you get! The terminology was bad (or maybe the English translation of this piece). Instead of "Orthodox" it's supposed to say "Ultra-O." or Chareidi. And instead of Religious Zionists it should have just said "Orthodox Zionists" or something similar. You know perfectly well that the religious "Zionists" are just as Orthodox as the chareidim, albeit with a different worldview. horoughly, perfectly, absolutely valid in the world of Halacha. Re #4 - the difference between ANY style of Orthodoxy and the Conservative or Reformed movements is clearly defined - Torah MiSinai and the Halacha which flows from it.

It seems that Kavod Harav Hagai Gross has never heard of the Hamas, Hizbulla, Jihad, Fatah, or Achmedinejad. He has nothing better to do that to declare ware on the Haredim. This is quite befitting to the "Gross" mistakes of Korach and meraglim that also spread disunity, the thing we need most in Israel today. Rabbi Gross's attempt to be a popular hero at the expense of other Jews is a gross error in judgment. Teshuva time, Rabbi.

Bark away Mr. anti-semite, just like the British general who thought "the way to punish Jews is thru their pockets" You are in good company: the ten spies, Korach, haman and the greeks. Not to mention all their many followers. Or is it that you actually dream of having a few followers yourself. dream on, you are no leader.

and rotten fish stink from the head. his head rotted from lack of Torah study. no wonder he hates haredim fakes hate those who are genuine. If you sell stinking fish you hate those who sell fresh fish

bark and howl and continue to be irelevant

Do haredim support the Settlements, or colelct charity for Gaza evacuees? Or supprot hesder yeshivot?

or gush katif, or.... problem is they have no allies since they suport fraud and fakes no-one believes them.

the reason there are so few Dayannim from the Camp you support is that all too few qualify. the few that do discover that Torah demands intellectual honesty, and thus they cross over to the haredi camp. Actually haredi batei Din have a better track record at solving Aguna problems that all those who howl away at the issue without knowledge

From the NR yeshivot they would close. Almost all the staff were taught by haredim except for a mere handful who usually are not the stars. If you cannot stand haredim: sit down, take a deep breath and ask yourself why you resent those more commited to Torah than yourself. A little heshbon nefesh will do you some good. See Rav Kook for tips. Remember he was actually haredi too, and certainly was haredi trained.

their conversions as we see them; period!

Actually - yes!

Oh that's very good - since those who come colelcting usually say it's to support their own institutions, and extravagant lifestyles, eg $4000 shtreimels, $1000 sheitel; yearly trips to Uman; glatt kosher at 3x the price of regualr kosher,, etc etc..

In Torah there is "ellu ue-ellu divre' Elo-him chaim". HOWEVER one things is sure: there is NOTHING GENUINELLY JEWISH in the customs and costumes adopted by the charedi world, the so called "ultra-orthodox", beginning with the usage of the colour BLACK, which was NEVER a Jewish costum except when in sahme or mourning, was NOT USED BY THE TANNAIM except in those circumstances, and it is THE ONLY COLOUR FORBIDDEN BY TANNAIM, RISHONIM (is Rabbenu Bachye big enough?) AND ACHARONIM (is the Ben ISh Chai big enough) BECAUSE IT IS THE COULOUR WORN BY IDOLATER PRIESTS. NOT BY CHANCE IT IS THE COLOUR WORN, FROM BABYLON ONWARD, BY ALL IDOLATROUS PRIESTS: CATHOLICS, ORTHODOX... So, going in the ways of the idolworshippers IS NOT THE JEWISH WAY, and in fact these people have been spreading hatred and strife WITHIN OUR PEOPLE always, and BESIDES, THEY IMPORTED INTO THE LAND OF ISRAEL CUSTOMS WHIC WERE NEVER THE CUTOMS HERE, which is forbidden by Halakhà.

It is about time that everything is done to secularize the country. Real democracy goes along with secularization. We will not escape from this reality. As long as we will continue funding parasites in return for their support when we build up a government, we will have to provide " pay back". Israel is NO exception. Judaism is one thing , reality is an other.

But also: Secular marriage, alternative burrial, public transportation on the weekends, Israel state flags to every corner of Mea Shearim!

Though i am both not orthodox and never write a talk back i feel compeled to respond to your harsh words. Orthodox jews are the most generous people i have met in the world. They give millions upon millions to stuggling families no matter the sect. I can see they feel for every Jew. I personally know people who go collecting in England for your yeshivot and get the bulk of the donations from the orthodox community. Blessed is that community who take upon themselves the ways of their fathers and heritage. I respect them and love them- you should too

We do NOT follow his views! Please fellow National Religious brothers do not heed his empty ignorant words! Please print Rabbi Gross's mothers name so i can pray for him-he needs it!

I don't know if you personally tested the knowllege of National Dayianim, or at least read about their "examinations" from a reliable source, or you are just hating a fraction of Israel, therefore using loshon haroh, w/o previous in depth reliable research. A few years I did mine, and later read an article in the Jerusalem Post, much more reliable than yediot btw, and it was clear National dayianim passed their examinations with brighter lights than their hareidim counteparts, yet, the ruling rabanut maffia, made sure to keep them at bay TIME FOR YOU TO DO SOME MAJOR TSHUVA

for religious haughtiness and self righteousness I was talking about is MIRIAM #2 Cool down your hate for the National/orthodox please The fact that ONE rabbi voices HIS opinion on convertions does not speak for everyone else. None of us is in the position of judging him in any event. Unlike 11# 2# 4# I would rather promote unity and not accentuate further divitions within us.

I wonder where the wearing of black hats and coats came from. My niece used to dress in black and dyed her blond hair black when she was a teenager. You can bet when people here dress that way that they are into drugs and/or the occult or just plain rebellious.

Firstly they are not my "Yeshivot". Second, I agree tzedaka is very good thing. However, I have some reservations about funding of Yeshivot , Haredi in particular. I am sorry if they seem harsh, and everyone is fre to contribute to whomever they wish. The Haredi Yeshivot themselves blast secular education, and even Modern Orthodox who study in Universities. Rav Shach said it is forbidden to study in University, and even in High school. So, all those who are professionals, eg doctors, lawyers, architects, are sinners. Even computer programmers. Next - If someone is on average income, why hsould he have to subsidize practices whcih are not part of the Torah, eg a Shtreimel, Sheitel, Glatt kosher, visitng the Rebbe's grave at Uman etc? The Hareidim do not accept the kashrut of the Zionist rabbis, so why should the zionist populus spend more on an extravagant Glat kosher product, especailly when the shemitta produce may be funding hamas rather than Israeli Jews?