I have no desire nor intention to discuss the NT nor the Torah, nor any other book- not with you Paqid, nor with any other religious person. You quote a book- I live by example I do not judge people nor damn nor treat with contempt- I am happier for it- I am optimistic that goodness will prevail- eventually. Like I said: a book is only as good as the reader- a holy book is good- but if the reader has a black heart it is not good and nothing good will come of it. I agree with Charles, and a few others: people should learn to see the progress, the good things, the change for the better. We do not live in the Dark Ages- what happened 2000 years ago in a different time does not have much relevance today- today's life is more difficult than the 'good old times' written up in any old book ever were.... God is timeless- , not bound to a time... today is as good as 2000 years ago..

the pope that president peres has invited to visit us for our "salvation" will instead come here to bring our destruction. it would be best to listen to our prophet daniel so to avoid this abomination that will bring us desolation/destruction.

he can do nothing in policy so let him visit the holy places and pray for peace ..he has no job only to pray to all people on this land ....

who pretends to be an "Orthodox" Jew . Maybe at Pourim when he will disguise himself in a Orthodox outfit will he have something Jewish , but only the outside packing will be , the contents not at all .

The pope keep preaching the value of human life. Of course he really refers to ABORTION. Let us not forget, the papacy also preaches the death sentence for murderers should occur nor should those people be required to forfeit their lives for their actions. Isn't that another way to excuse those murdered 6 million Jews for their actions. Isn't that what hitler's pope did? Did he ever reproach those who murdered the Jew? No, but he was instrumental in setting up a rat line giving passports to nazi murderers enabling them to flee Europe to South America especially to countries whose laws permitted those murderers to evade justice. Now the pope has really repaid his bishop who denies the Shoah happened by re-instating him in his rank. Of yes, he slapped his wrist for his comments. A laughable display of doublespeak.

G-d may be timeless, Lisa, but so are the things that have been done to Jews in His name; the vast majority of which were done to Jews by Roman Catholics and other Christian faiths. You can call upon at best a couple of thousand "good" people; we can show you the corpses of tens of millions. That does not constitute mitigation, Lisa, no matter what you think.

Ever wonder why a Vatican edict is referred to as a Papal bull?

The state of Israel was established by the help of two Catholic Countries. USA and UK!! Is this the thanks Christianity deserves?? This page proves how unthankful you are to Christians

For the record, the United States is an overwhelmingly Protestant country. The Church of England -- the official church of the U.K. -- also known as the Anglican faith, is a Protestant faith. Start with the facts, sir, and work from there. And yes, Christianity deserves this. What should I be thankful to Christianity for? All the Jews viciously murdered throughout the Middle Ages? All the Jews killed under "blood libel" claims? All the Jews murdered in Europe while Christians marched to the Crusades? The pogroms committed by Christians in the Pale? Should I be grateful to Catholic France for what it did to Albert Dreyfus? Should I express gratitude for the six million Jews murdered by Nazis and their Christian willing helpers? Should I thank you -- a Swiss Christian -- for supposedly neutral Switzerland banking Nazi gold which came from Jewish wedding bands and the gold dental work in Jewish mouths? Should I be grateful to Christian Switzerland for confiscating and expropriating Jewish bank accounts? Or how about BP Keller and Winterthur and other Swiss insurance companies who to this day refuse to pay off on fully-paid up life insurance policies taken out by desperate Jews in the 1960s? Should I express thanks to the Vatican for not lifting a finger to help Jews during World War II? Or perhaps I should save my gratitude to the Vatican for operating the Nazi rat lines which gave passports and other assistance to wanted Nazi war criminals leaving Europe following the War. Come to think of it, do you know how many thousands of wanted war criminals left Europe on Red Cross passports? (Answer: about five thousand.) (The Vatican, by the way, issued eight thousand.) Tell me what you think I should be grateful to Christians for. I await your reply. (Take your "unthankful" and shove it, John.)

"Or how about BP Keller and Winterthur and other Swiss insurance companies who to this day refuse to pay off on fully-paid up life insurance policies taken out by desperate Jews in the 1960s? " Obviously, I meant to write ".... desperate Jews in the 1930s." I do apologize to all for this rather critical typographical error. I was too angry when I wrote it, and did not proof my TB. Mea culpa.

Errare humanum est , perseverare diabolicum . Listen to me , be less HATEFULL . The Catholics of today are'nt those of the middle ages , nor those of the crusades . You did'nt answer my question : who saved those 2,8 million Jewish survivors , Were it not Catholics and other Christians ? You did'nt live this period , i did , and i know , contrary to you , exactly what i'm talking about . Hate for murderers , traitors , for those who betrayed , yes , they deserve it . Not against all the Christians as you do . Now i'm asking you : would you endanger your life , and this of your family , in order to save someone ?

Charles, my good friend. My father used to ask me the same question -- "Would I endanger the life of my family to save a stranger?" I'll give you the same answer: I don't know. I can only know should the situation arise. It is easy to give platitudes, and easier still to say that "Yes, I would." But that would be dishonest. The best I can honestly say is that I don't know. Should the situation (G-d forbid) ever arise, then, I will know. The 2.8 million Jews who survived the concentration camps did so because the Germans and their collaborators ran out of time. Even with their forced marches from camps in the east heading west; they ran out of time, and by February, March of 1945, a lot of Nazis were looking to save their own hides and deserting in droves. Especially the collaborators from Eastern European countries. Sometimes, they shot all the Jews in their charge. Sometimes, they just left, worrying only about saving their own hides. I was born twenty years after the war ended. What I know, I learned from my parents who, like you, survived the war. I have no reason to doubt that everything that they have told me (or that I have independently researched) is the truth. Shabat shalom, Charles.

et suppositio nil ponit in esse ... (although I respect your enthusiasm, Charles). Oh well. sic fratur crustulum.

Two things. 1 a. The Jewish people did not "hand" Jesus over to the Romans. Pontius Pilate was the worst of a very long line of horrible and cruel Roman procurators. The Jews had no police powers under his rule; I assure you. b. The story of offering the crowd a choice between Barabbas and Jesus is equally not true. No Roman procurator would ALLOW the Jews any such choice. 2. I seem to recall that when the Reverend Bailey Smith was head of the Southern Baptist Convention, he came out with the comment that "G-d does not hear the prayer of a Jew." So much for the Baptists.

So you practice what you preach, and you preach love for all people regardless of creed, age, color or gender? How noble of you. Does your love extend to, say, Osama bin Laden? Do you pray for him? If you say "yes," then, Lisa, it is my duty to inform you that you and I have a major disconnect. I do not love Osama bin Laden and the only thing I pray for is that he endure extreme and prolonged suffering and an agonizing death. Also, Lisa -- if you really do "love" bin Laden, I respectfully request that, going forward, you ignore my contributions to TB. I shall ignore yours.

Thank you for your considered and articulate post. All religions are made up of two substantive parts -- the spiritual (what one believes) and the ritual (what one practices). I have a private theory (which I cannot prove) that the reason that Jews have been hated so much is because whereas Christianity is not uniform spiritually, Judaism is. Christianity has branched out into many faiths, with sharply differing interpretations of dogma. Judaism is -- well, Judaism. All Jews believe the same thing. Where Jews differ is in ritual practice. That kind of uniformity among a people with the history of persecution which Jews have must be a daunting concept to grasp for Christians (of whatever stripe or breed). The fact that Jews were ready to accept death rather than conversion must have frightened people who endured the religious wars in Europe by being Catholic on Monday, Protestant on Tuesday. I suspect uniformity of belief among Jews gave rise to popular belief (however inaccurate) to international Jewish conspiracies and so forth. Like I said; just a theory. I cannot prove it.

You don't know History . Those who survived did it because 1] they were HIDDEN by GOOD Catholics and other Christians 2] some could flee . You said that your father told you that the pope was in Auschwitz and during his speech there , at this cross or carmel , did mention the Jews . Sorry to say , i DID'NT find any word about this . Can you explain why ?

When you try to show your "knowledge" do it correctly . it's sic frIatur ....

I wasn't trying to show knowledge, Charles. You offered up a Latin phrase, so I was only trying to respond in kind. Hands across the ocean and all that. I wish I could say it was just a typo, but it wasn't. I did think it is "fratur," and I thank you for correcting me. I told you once before that a day that I do not learn anything new is not a good day, and I you have kicked off my day to a fine start! Gratias tibi ago.

No, I can't explain your flawed research skills. Try this: "Memory Offended: The Auschwitz Convent Controversy," edited by Carol Rittner and John K. Roth, 1991. Let's just leave it alone, Charles -- I do not particularly enjoy reinventing the wheel on a daily basis -- you were "saved" by Catholics. My parents were not; in fact, my father's family were turned away when they sought sanctuary, and were subsequently betrayed by those "good Catholics." My dad survived. The rest of his family did not. You had a good experience with Roman Catholics during the war; my father did not. Most Jews did not. Most Jews ended up murdered. We'll call it a draw, okay?

Why did'nt you ask her if she would love hitler ? Not only IGNORANT of history and geography , but stupid too .

at this cross or carmel , did'NT instead of did

Hitler (may his name be cursed for eternity) is dead, and Lisa was born following his death. She has no personal memory of him or his actions. She was alive, however, when Osama bin Laden (may his name be stricken from the Book of Life) did his thing via Al Qaeda. He's a pretty close equivalent to a modern-day Hitler. That is why I used bin Laden. If you don't understand this, Charles, you're not as intelligent as I thought you were. Sorry. I stand by my belief that it is a fair question. Lisa claimed to love all. I just got a bit specific with her. Can we stop this ridiculous dialogue already? I am getting a little tired of the name-calling. It is inappropriate. I have tolerated it only because you indicated that you survived the Second World War and I take that to mean that you are a gentleman of advanced years, and I do respect that. Next time, the gloves will come off. You don't want that. I don't want that. But stop with the pejoratives, please.

Why did you write "saved" with " ? i was SAVED by Catholics , hiden in a home set up by a priest . And i was not alone who was saved by this priest and other Catholics in other places . We were betrayed , all the boys had to open their trousers , and i was arrested , circumcised . In my country , in 44 they did'nt deport children without parents , we were placed in homes under gestapo control , but managed by the local Judenrat . When the liberation forces approached the direction placed all the children in Catholic and secular families in the region , to avoid us to be taken to the camps . You are'nt the only who lost family , my father died in Dachau . My mother's family disappeared completely , exept an uncle and his children whom one could reach the USA , the others being hidden in the same country as i was . The parents survived in a hospital , a good Catholic doctor did'nt allow the nazis to take them . And in this hospital other Jews found also refuge . And this was known to many , if not all of the Hospital's staff , who certainly were also helping . Yes , there were traitors , even jewish [ without capital ] ones . There was a guy , jewish , on the payroll of the gestapo . he accompagnied them in their car and indicated Jews . His fate is unknown . Another one betrayed the place , in a Catholic convent , where my woman was hidden with her sister and 15 other Jewish girls . Good people in , and outside Drancy arranged for fake papers from a Catholic priest that those two sisters were baptised , and they were liberated when Paris was . All the other girls were deported , only one survived , but morally "crippled" . The betrayer was executed after the liberation . I only asked you about this "love" because in my eyes NO sane person can love this bin laden , and it was not smart to ask it . But you told us yourself that you are'nt smart , an excuse . PS everyone knows that NY is in the USA

Do we need the Pope?. Like all yesteryears Popes,HE sticks to his 'guns". With some readjustments, refinements and refreshed wording (after all, he is educated),the end result, as always, is the same. He apologises to Islam in behalf of free thinking people who object to muslim's irrational behavior, does nothing, or very little to reign in his " own troops " for " misbehaving " toward Jews. AND, is doing us a favor for the occasional " good word " or a " maybe " if you are good boys, I will honor you with a State visit. --- NO we do not need a Pope, any Pope, past, present or future, until....No, it's never going to happen

During his visit in Poland , from June 1st to 9th 1991 , Pope John paul prononced 31 speeches , one of them to the representatives of the Jewish Community . That's all [ vatican site ]

in the contents of this book [ at least not seen and i've gone thru all the contents ] . Did'nt find any speech at Auschwitz on the vatican site . But why don't you read , from the same authors : The courage to care , stories about Christian rescuers and saved Jews ? Is this against your hatefull ideas ?

Mr. Klieger, As Jews, we cannot believe every slander we hear. Golda Meir said about Pius XII: "When fearful martyrdom came to our people in the decade of Nazi terror, the voice of the Pope was raised for the victims.." Do you think she was a dupe or collaborationist? To perpetuate this about Pius XII, you are slandering her.

There is no trace of the voice of pius XII raising openly against the Holocaust , not during nor after WWII

Anyone who consults a Baptist about the Catholic Church will ignorant as Barbara. This is what comes of allowing every lackwit his or her own interpretation of scripture- 10,000 versions of Truth and growing.