Jewish Scene
Rabbinate to discuss civil marriage for first time
Kobi Nahshoni
Published: 04.03.09, 12:35
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1. Disapora Jews want to be proud of Israel
Gavriel ,   Budapest, Hungary   (03.04.09)
Zionists, like Herzl, wanted a JEWISH and DEMOCRATIC secular state where government and religious establishment are divided, not a RELIGIOUS fundamentalist state like Iran! You may not want to import democracy to the "only democracy" of the Middle East, I understand this, but be prepared that anti-Semitism will increase and Jews living in the diaspora won't be able to "defend" the Jewish state when being verbally attacked! We, the Jewish people abroad, want to be proud of Israel!
2. O.K., so when a country prohibits marriage with a Jew...
John ,   Europe   (03.04.09)
Rabbies should be silent. OR when a country prohibits Jews to be in its civil serivicies. OR when a county prohibits Jews to own a its piece of land or realestate. What you seek is what you will get, rabbies, but do not yell when other treat you the same you treat them. And don't you pull Saudi Arabia and Afganistan crap here. WOULD YOU LIKE TO BE CALLED JEWISH SAUDI ARABIA? Would you like to be called Jewish Taliban state? Would you like to be considerd "the same savages as the others they are fighting with"?
3. Civil marriges............
Wise Saba ,   Netivit   (03.04.09)
They can only be permitted between 2 non Jews. Mixed marriages are not acceptable & must not be allowed in Israel.
4. As a Secular , but 100 % Jewish , i AGREE
Charles ,   Petach Tikva   (03.04.09)
No need to tell again why . I would also like to suggest a "follow up" of conversions , to avoid "converts" who have always this jesus in their mouth [ josh ] or this ribi yeshua as this p*qid does .
5. Thanks G'od they are discussing !
Keren ,   Israel-SP   (03.04.09)
And I wish that ,once this problem is properly sorted out,the Rabbinate starts working together with Imigration Ministry in order to correct the problem not to happen again. In other words,to resolv the proplem definitively. Every Ministry must work in sintony to others,to find coherent and proper solutions to all and every of our problems.
6. # 3 ever heard of personal choice?
Avi ,   RG - Israel   (03.04.09)
if you wish to lead the religious lifestyle then fine, thats your choice, however it is not acceptable to force such rulings on non belivers. It is a persons basic human right to choose his or her partner, regardless of religon or sexuality. And not to be dictated to by a bunch of religious authoirites who seem to think they can dictate to non belivers what to eat, who to marry and when we can drive our cars.
7. Wise Saba #3
Rosh Pina   (03.04.09)
Just so that I understand you, Saba, an Israeli Jew that was born here in Israel can marry a non Jew in Israel in a civil merriage. In your oppinion that is acceptable? provided I declare myself a Non Jew?
8. to Charles
Susan ,   Kfar Saba   (03.04.09)
I met this paqid guy once about twenty years ago. He is a guy from the Bible Belt, Tennessee as I recall. He sees himself as a big intellectual on matters of religion. Although he converted and considers himself an orthodox Jew, he admitted to me that he believes Jesus was the messiah. I get the impression that his wife just goes along with whatever he says. I wish he'd go back to Tennessee.
9. #4 Orthodox already don't recognize Josh as convert
Paqid Yirmeyahu ,   Ra'anana, Israel   (03.04.09)
He doesn't claim to be. See Josh's 2007.11.12 Paqid Yirmeyahu The Netzarim, Ra'anana, Israel Israeli Orthodox Jew (Teimani Baladi Dardai) Advancing Logic as Halakhic Authority Welcoming Jews & non-Jews www.netzarim.co.il
10. To #9 , thanks for the info , you too are a fake
Charles ,   Petach Tikva   (03.04.09)
But you are'nt recognised either by any you can name
11. To Susan , You told it already, but fine to remind to others
Charles ,   Petach Tikva   (03.04.09)
You wrote that he , this self proclaimed convert paqid , told you that he still believed in jesus . He , the biggest liar , reacted by telling that it was not true .
12. It's All Very Simple! In A Nutshell...
Reuven Brauner ,   Raanana, Israel   (03.04.09)
1. A non-Jewish couple will be able to have a civil ceremony. 2. A Jewish couple must be married according to the Halacha. 3. No marriages are legally permitted between a Jew and a non-Jew. 4. A Jewish couple who are generally known to be "living together as husband and wife" are to be recognized as a "common-law" couple and must seek a Halachic divorce before they can "re-marry". If there is no "Get", and the wife "remarries" she is an adultress and her paramour an adulterer. Children from that union are Mamzeirim. Such a couple are not recognized as fully legitimate and can lead to financial disputes in the event of death or "divorce". Now, what's the problem?
13. #1 Religious State
Simon ,   Kyriat Gat   (03.04.09)
Gavriel, Herzl and Zionists were the best and worst thing for the Jewish nation and Israel. They were the best as they made words turn into actions and it is thanks to them that we have a country today. They were the worst as they did not care about the religious views, history and commitment of the Jewish people to it's heritage the Tora. History teaches that Herzl was ready to take Uganda as a country for the jewish people. I would like to say also that your statement "a JEWISH and DEMOCRATIC secular state" makes no sense! You are not "Jewish" unless you accept both the written and oral Tora and are not secular. Sure you can take the views of the conservative and reform movement who say that you are Jewish if you want to proclaim it... where does it lead? To what this article states; the fact that pluralism destroys and eliminates a nation. What happened to the Greeks, the Romans, the Egyptians and all these great historic nations? We the Jews are here with our identity unbroken since Avraham because we DO NOT allow pluralism and we prone the following of the Torah written and oral as it is written. Also, Iran is not a religious fundamentalist state as you and many people think it is. Being abroad i encountered many educated Iranians who all said the same: Iran is ruled by a terrorist. Just like Hamas, Saddam Hussein and all those people who are not just terorist but people who went crazy as they had a taste of too much power and money. Judaism in itself is democratic with a set of laws that was proven in history to be successful in governing a nation. Tora even installs a jury and system of witnesses! If we favor and help the Jewish people follow these laws I think it can only be a success. I am not for an iranian type of state where if you do not follow the laws you will die. but more something like if you close the mall on shabbat you get a tax return... if you respect shabbat you get sunday offf... It is sure that you cannot force anyone to do anything. Where is the democracy in that? You must favor people or something along that... Finally, I am a Jew from abroad that settled here not to long ago... I can tell you that if you are not able to defend the Jewish state abroad it is because you are not organized as well as they are. Why don't we organize massive rallies, leave our jobs and go protest in front of a country's government. arabs do it all over the world on a weekly if not daily basis. As for defending the Jewish state if you cannot do that than by all means open a history book or an internet page and start reading from the conferences of Herzl down to the latest election. thanks for publishing me!
14. Reuven , a chupah is a nice ceremony too
Charles ,   Petach Tikva   (03.04.09)
Something you generally don't have at the city hall .
15. Civil marriage will open the floodgates
Sue ,   Los Angeles   (03.04.09)
Jewish law is just for Jews, but civil laws must be upheld equally for all citizens, including Jews. Once civil marriage becomes law, secular Jews, interfaith couples and gay couples will flood the courts with lawsuits, claiming discrimination.
16. I have to agree with #13 Simon
Marni ,   FL   (03.04.09)
I think the polarization in Israel between the secular, who view themselves as "Israelis" first, and the observant, who view themselves as "Jewish" first, is obviously the reason for so much dissonance within the country when it comes to issues like marriage, divorce and other Halachic led matters. As a secular Jew, and although I live abroad I am still going to put in my two cents, I think that allowing certain things, such as marriage, to be performed according to Jewish law, is what helps Israel to preserve its Jewish livelihood. I can't begin to fathom the discrimination and bureaucratic nightmares that I am sure those who enter into a mixed marriage in Israel, or those who just don't want to get married under the guise of the Rabbis must endure. But, the Judaic observance of certain traditions is what helps Israel to preserve itself as the world's only Jewish state, and maybe having to adhere to certain rituals and laws is what is necessary in order for Israel to continue being a Jewish state. I wished that more Israelis realized how special and lucky they are to be part of something so much greater than the are individually, and that their collective existence as Jews has been and will be preserved through observing such Halachic rituals.
17. Simon , not correct regarding Herzl
Charles ,   Petach Tikva   (03.04.09)
Herzl proposed the British Uganda program as a TEMPORARY refuge for Jews in Russia in immediate danger . This program would NOT affect the ultimate aim of Zionosm , a Jewish entity in the land of Israel . [ Jewish virtual library ]
18. Simon , 13
Charles ,   Petach Tikva   (03.04.09)
It were mostly SECULARS who fought for Israel's independance , it were mostly they who gave their blood for it . A Jew can be secular , Who are you to decide it can't be ? If you want only religious as Israeli citizens , then your place is'nt here , it's in a shtetl .
19. #17 Charles, it's a good thing that the others saw the
Roman ,   Lod, Israel   (03.04.09)
inherent mistake in that part of Herzl's reasoning. Don't you know the old adage so often repeated within the IDF's bureaucratic halls? "What's temporary will become permanent."
20. Charles 18, I think you misunderstand Simon
Darren ,   Oakland, CA   (03.04.09)
Simon and I share similar views, from what I gather. I personally think that the Law of Return and the status of "Jew" as defined by the State of Israel needs to be amended so that only Jews as defined by Orthodox Halacha can be considered Jewish and qualify for the Law of Return. Non-halachic Jews should get a residency permit and qualify for Law of Return when they have an Orthodox conversion. And I'm saying this as someone who doesn't have an Orthodox conversion. What good is a Jewish state if there are no Jews to live in it and defend it? PS- It was mostly Ashkenazim who fought for Israel's Independence too. Now, however, it is mostly Ashkenazim (most of whom are Chilonim) who are Jewish Anti-Zionists. It doesn't matter who did what in the past- it's who does what now that matters, and it's the Datim who are doing the heavy lifting in keeping Israel a Jewish state.
21. #12 Perfect!
Keren ,   Israel-SP   (03.05.09)
22. Your wicked bomdage has failed
dennis ,   us   (03.05.09)
to think you are tell humans who and who not to marry? INSANE FILTH! I will have a wife if I choose and if its a Israelie you absolutely WILL NOT STOP IT or have ANY say in it EVER! PERIOD!!! Shut you stinking mouths up. cause you aint ever gonna prevent it.
23. Civil marriages
Israeli Jew ,   Israel   (03.05.09)
If we want to keep Israel Jewish, we cannot allow civil marriages. They will cause an even bigger mess than the mess we have now. Just look at the Jewish communities in the Galut: intermarriages, mamzerim, etc etc. We do have some of those problems here, but we have to try to control them.
24. Reuven (12)
Paqid Yirmeyahu ,   Ra'anana, Israel   (03.05.09)
There is also the Jew and non-Jew living together common law. Jew and Arab. Jew and Muslim. Jew and Christian. There is also the homosexual problem. There are also Christians who were converted by non-Orthodox "Judaism." This creates a situation in which Israel, but not the Orthodox, recognizes them as Jews. Therefore, Israel, but not Orthodox, would approve their marriage. There are likely other problems beyond these. All of these would lead to great internal strife in Israel and endless confusion. The future seems to dictate a separate (Torah-observing) people within a diametric opposite (Torah-rejecting) people; a permanent, ever-growing and irreparable rift between Torah-observers (Orthodox) and Torah-rejectors (non-Orthodox). The diametric opposites are both Jews? Paqid Yirmeyahu The Netzarim, Ra'anana, Israel Israeli Orthodox Jew (Teimani Baladi Dardai) Advancing Logic as Halakhic Authority Welcoming Jews & non-Jews www.netzarim.co.il
25. To darren , 20
Charles ,   Petach Tikva   (03.05.09)
If not for those chilonim , or even anti religious , we True Jews , would not have a State . It's that what is important . You forgot to mention as anti Israeli "jews" those charidim . At least the chiloni anti Israelis also fought in Israel's different wars . Regarding conversion , you probably know my ideas about it , but since you are living in the USA it's not my problem .
26. From a family of assimilation....
gedaliah   (03.05.09)
I can tell you that all those who speak out against the rabbis would be kicking themselves in three generations when 3 thousand years of jewish history comes to an end. Do you know that there are more that 6 million children born from ,mixed marriages that are not recognized as Jews according to Jewish Law? He condemned Hitler for killing Jews yet we do it ourselves. Good for the rabbis for the only Jews to stand up against this pluralism BS. We as a people need to understand, define, and live by what kept us a people for all this time. By the way, Civil marriages are fine as long as non-Jew marries a non-Jew. This is better for Israel. Otherwise the non-Jews who don't travel to Cyprus are forced into a conversion which in of itself is a big problem according to Jewish law.
27. 24 , you as an example
Charles ,   Petach Tikva   (03.05.09)
of non Orthodox "conversion" , but no conversion occured at all for you . Don't preach you christian yeshua here . For someone who needs to make a livelihood as you wrote , you spend much time with preaching your non Jewish superstitions . Are you paid for this . or was it also one of your many lies ?
28. Gedaliah , and others
Charles ,   Petach Tikva   (03.05.09)
Non Jewish inhabitants of our country can also have a marriage in their faith , they don't need a civil one for most of them.
29. Roman , Herzl only proposed to accept
Charles ,   Petach Tikva   (03.05.09)
british Uganda program , this happened more than 40 years beore the IDF was created , so not to compare . It was not reasoning , only a way to save Russish Jews .
30. what do you call a conference of Rabbis.
Simon ,   UK   (03.05.09)
Certainly you dont call them a collection of wise men. So why does this mess exist in the first place? Other strands of Judaism came around and the repsonse was lets make standards of conversion more strict that way it will protect the status quo.. and did it? no it just forced potential coverts in to the arms of the progressives. Hey tell you what lets have more of the same that will fix things! Time for some blue sky thinking if they can pull themselves away from navel gazing. "fighting over chairs on the titanic comes to mind".
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