Sue, I feel you and I bow to your logic. I similar about Greece - I will never go there cuz at some point in history Roman Empire invaded Europe. As Rico pointed out, Dachau is in the middle of Germany, faaaar away from Poland. But it's a camp, so it must have been Polish, right, you blatant ignorant? Jules, beautiful post. You forgot to mention Poles were also happy to see their country being destroyed by the Germans. What money are you talking about? Those pathetic shekles Jewish tourists leave in Poland? You right: without that Polish economy would have collapsed dekades ago. As for Shamir: this slanderer crawled back from his statement, but never apologized, which he should do on his knees.

many many poles risked their lives for saving jews and i have many polish friends who love jews and israel. why brushing all poles with the same brush??!! very unfair

Wikipedia says it was 5.600.000 Polish citizens, out of whom 3.000.000 were Polish Jews. Various sources show different data and the exact numbers are hard to count, but the most common figures say that Poland lost about 6.000.000 - almost 1/6 of of its population - and Polish Jews were half of that.

Stop penalizing Poland for being occupied by the same brutal savages (Nazis) who murdered so many of us. While there were Poles who committed crimes during the Shoah (Jedwabne), many Poles were heroes. There are more Poles honored among the Righteous Among the Nations than ANY OTHER COUNTRY (6,000). Honor THEM by not painting all of their countrymen with a single angry brush. There are many Poles who are decent people, and the Polish government is acting like a friend (e.g. boycotted Durban II outright, unlike most of the EU). Polish trade with Israel is growing and there are increasing Israeli investments in Poland. Some of these rabbis know nothing about other people, no matter how learned they are in Torah. To the Poles on this comment forum, please understand that many Israelis and Jews do NOT feel as this rabbi feels. I am perfectly okay with going to Poland.

Sadly rabbi, all countries are impure because countries are made of people,and people are impure. Hashem gave people feedom of choice; guess what; some do not live as you think they should. Angels exist only in biblical stories.

Just a bit of information about one of the "anti-Semitic" events in Polish history, often invoked by Jews. There are two aspects of the 1968: 1. The INTERNAL struggle for power among the communists in Poland (some Jewish, some non-Jewish, and largely divided along this line), resulting in expulsion of prominent Jews. This was, by the way, the pedigree of the rabidly anti-Polish diaspora, consisting of former communist apparatchiks, suddenly transformed into democratic intelligentsia (e.g. Wolinska-Brus and her husband). 2. The feelings of the majority of Poles, for whom the communist government was an alien entity, imposed by the Soviet Union. 1968 is an important date in Israeli history too. And you know what Poles were saying at that time, with a certain amount of glee? "OUR Jews have kicked the butt of THEIR (Soviet) Arabs". I thought you guys may find it interesting, even though it is slightly tangential to the topic of this discussion. I bet such facts are not taught in Tel-Aviv or New York, and lack of this knowledge may be the source of at least SOME anti-Polish sentiments.

OK, I can agree with you if this is the way you think. I think there is never enough of talking, meetings and exchange of ideas, knowledge, experience etc. That's why I think those trips of the Israeli (and American Jewish) youth to Poland are important. The point is, that at the beginnig, for the initial several years the idea how to organise those trips was not good - in my opinion. Young Israelis and Jewish Americans came to Poland with their prejudice, that Poland is nothing but a huge cemetery of their ancestors - still full of vicious, anti-semitist Poles. They went to Auschwitz only (maybe to some other former death camps too) - protected by strong Israeli security service (you know - the danger of those vicious Poles). And then they left the country immediately - without getting any knowledge about the real Poland. Now it's much better (for several years). Young Israelis and Americans have a chance to meet fellow Polish teenagers, they even walk togehter in the March of the Living. They also visit Polish cities (like Krakow), and can learn something about the 1.000 years history of Polish Jewry (not only the most tragic 6 years). BTW. As far as I know - the name of Poland in Yiddish langauge is Polin, which means "Place of safe refuge" in the exile from the Land of Israel. The name derives from the fact, that in 15th century Jews were expelled from other European countries (like Spain, Portugal, germany, France) and they settled in Poland - finding it a friendly place. That's why in later centuries up to 80% of the Jewish world population lived in Poland. Among those vicious anti-semitist Poles ;-)

See Israela's comments. My opinion on kids visiting death camps (in Poland or any other country) are based on my own education as a child. My dad was an officer at the liberation of Dachau (yes, in Germany) in 1945. He marched through France and Germany with the 45th Infantry Division. Most of his unit was killed in battle. After the war he stayed in Germany for a year working for the Army. His stories to me about Dachau and his photos of the horrors there, led me to study the Holocaust and to teach about it in schools and for Jewish organizations. Dachau, Auschwitz, Majdanek, Theresienstadt...I did not need to travel to these places to understand what happened there - or to my own family members who were rounded up by the Nazis, shot dead and thrown into a mass grave in some forest (also not located in Poland).

And I am entitled to my opinion.

That, too :( Only another point to show how vile that man is.

And that. The Ukranians didn't wait for the Germans to come to start slaughtering Jews. In the war and before the war.

become perps instead of victims? When the Germans invaded Poland, they had two main groups of people on their killing-lists. Jews and polish intellectuals. The fact that the Germans built the most awful deathcamps on Polish ground does not make the citizens of that country guilty of participation. They were simply not asked by the occupiers. The number of people in Poland that were aiding and hiding jews is higher than in any other occupied country and the level of collaboration is the lowest. Maybe it would be a good idea for Rabbi Melamed to attend a history class before making such statements.

thos trips r a extreamlly important, must not be ban, and I say this regardless of my family history, as for me I don't think I am going to visit poland not because of the two idiots but because of the enormas burden of pain, some of my family members didn't had the chance to be baried nor to have a proper funeral. to look for graves without names, of family members(most of the family) is too much.

that's exactly the point you don't have to cause your family been there but what about jews that never been through the holocaust, yes there is such a thing they don't have stories, or pictures, and I am preaty sure that your next generations won't be able to hear you late father stories stories during the years tent to dim, they will want to reach better understanding better about the past, you met a witness they won't be able to, they will want to see with their own eyes you know seeing is believing and that is the best source of comemorating the holocaust.

As usual your post is extremely antiPolish and full of crap. Enemies? That's what Poland and the Poles are? Enemies? Good to know. Now I pity those Polish fools who gave their lives to save such a ungrateful and ignorant moran like yourself even more. They gave their live for your pathetic self and you're calling 'em 'F*** Poles.' Way to go!

TO AL, # 29 AMEN !!!!!!!!!

TO JUSTINE, My son is finishing his second year in the army, so that would make the trip March 2006. He came back with every penny I gave him, and that was a first! But the point is there are many pros & cons to these trips. If the kids are serious & well prepared the trip can be life-changing. It's also true that they can learn about the Shoa from books, interviews, Lohamei Gettaot and Yad Vashem. But having witnessed this trip first hand, I can attest that nothing has the impact on teenagers of standing shivering in the snow outside of the gate to Auschwitz & reciting prayers & lighting candles with your teachers & classmates. Believe me they'll spend the same amount of money on plenty of other shit that they buy or trips they take. TO the talkback that said many Poles died in the camps, that may be true, but that doesn't negate the fact that Poles were traditionally , violently &obsessively anti semitic, many many of them looted the jewish homes & watched their neighbors being led away with a great deal of satisfaction, and turned in those in hiding. It's also true that the Poles were anti Nazi, & in many cases rebelled against the Nazis (partisans, etc) but that is only because the Germans conquered their beloved Poland. It was through no love of Jews. They were most happy to take over ther Jewish neighbors' silver, furniture, and homes. At the end of the war, at bes, most of this property stayed in polish hands, and at worse their were pogroms and massacres of Jews returning from the Camps. This is been historically documented so so so many times. So get off it a'ready. No use in arguing and denying because it doesn't sound pleasant.

GREG PL: Don't get all bent out of shape. You're taking some isolated incidents of Poles helping Jews, and blowing it up way out of proportion to make it seem as the Poles had some great love for their Jewish neighbors and were good hearted folk just loving their fellow countrymen who happened to be Jewish. The truth is that they were just that - isolated incidents. The Nazis wouldn't have been able to perpetrate the greatest human crime of all time (the slaughter of 6,000,000 innocent human beings based on the simple fact that they were born of a certain religion) if the Polish locals hadn't abetted and in many cases eagerly helped them. The general mindset of the time, was that the Jews had robbed the Poles of things that rightfully belonged to them, and that they had caused the Nazi onslaught, and were to be punished for it. I know it's not pleasant to hear, esp. for Polish young people, but them's the facts.

GREG, my husband comes from a family where grandparents, aunts, uncles and cousins were murdered in Poland. You don't want to know the number of Poles who turned in Jewish families including babies, who were in hiding, for a pack of cigarettes, or a bottle of whiskey.The Nazis may have perpetrated, but the Jews were killed in massive numbers because they had no where to turn, no one who would agree to help in any way. They were literally on their own in a sea of hatred and killing. I am not in any way negating the good folks who did risk their lives to help, but they were sadly in the great minority.

Debbie, You are a typical example of what is wrong with some of the older Israelis (I'm not necessarily saying you're old, it's just your views). You know a couple of people who were wronged by a Pole or Poles (i.e your husband and his relatives), you've taken their views to be gospel and the only truth in the world, and disseminate them right, left and centre. Open your mind a little, travel, go to Poland (and other countries for comparison), talk to a broad spectrum of people, get their opinion and views, read books that don't only support your point of view. Only when you do that I'll take your views seriously. Otherwise, sadly, you're just one of many blinkered and narrow minded people. We have too many of those around.

I am not talking about some "isolated incidents", I am talknig about methodical and systematic help and millions of dollars involved - Polish Gov in Exile sent milions of dollars to local AK fighters in order to organize help to the Jews. 350 thousand of ordinary people (estimated) helped the Jews along the official, gov sponsored way. You could say it was nothing compared to 20+ mil of Poles, but considering the fact there was a capital punishment for giving a mere glass of water to a Jew imposed to the helper, helper's family and even neighbours - the number is quite impressive. Now, Deborah, asnwer me this, and answer this to yourself, too - would you risk lives of your husband, yours, your SON and most likely lives of direct neighbours to save ONE stranger who most likely couldn't even speak your language? Would you? You miss a VERY important thing: Jews is Poland, vaaast majority of 'em lived within their own enclaves, dressed differently and did not speak BASIC Polish. Fishing Jews out of the Polish crowd was as hard as fishing out a Chinese out of Nigerian crowd; Germans didn't need any help to do so. Also remember: it took dozen of Poles to save ONE Jew, and it took one Pole to turn in DOZEN of Jews. Also, WHY always is it Poland to be blamed for the holokaust? What is it wrong with that think?! DID the Poles ASKED for the camps? DID the Germans ASKED the Poles wheter they liked the camps on their land or not?!!?!? Why you're so judgmentanl of the Poles, yet you don't give a damn about the GOVERNMENT sponsored Jews deportation during the WWII (France, Hungary)?! What's wrong with that? Did you find a perfect enemy (as Petra said) to blaim for the centuries of mistreating? Mind that very nation gave you a shelter for a THOUSAND of years. More respect here. ...

I honestly believe that young generation of Poles and Jews can build a new, strong and friendly bond between our nations, based on a mutual respect rather than negative stereotypes. History of Holocaust is extremely important for both, Poland and Israel and it has to be remembered by the citizens of our countries. That's why we have to focus our attention on similarities and positive features. That's the key. I'm crossing fingers. We're gonna do it!

Thank You Rabbi Boaz Pash for Your accurate assessment of Rabbi Aviner’s controversial “judgement”. Indeed these sweeping generalizations are taken lightly in Israel, as you could see in this talkback. In contemporary Poland, now so “politically correct” after few years of very open public debates about infamous Poland’s anti-Semitic past, such intensity of the anti-Polish hatred, as shown here by many Israelis, cold be really stunning. It is probably encouraging to see the Polish society getting more and more tolerant and civilised, although there are some racially motivated incidents across the country still present. Looks like the Poles are on the right way to be part of the leading forces in the world promoting human rights and social justice. I’m worried although about the Israelis society that, I’m afraid, is going rather Rabbi Melamed’s way towards more chauvinistic society than ever before. Shalom

1)the new generation of israelis are global citizens 2)everyone knows rabbi lau, previous chief rabbi of israel in the picture, he was supportive of returning to poland, if he did it himself. his views are still broadcasted on tv. not many know rabbi zalman melamed i live in israel, who is he? 3)israelis are showing their frustration, they want to believe despite of what happened, so i thank the poles who answer kindly, lets hope the world shall be a more beautifull place rina

The dress habits of ultra orthodox Jews is straighr from 18 th century Poland they should adapt to Eretz Yisrael already!

Personally I don't care about the clothing itself, but it's the statement they are making by wearing it that skeeves me. That and the use of Askenazi Hebrew which is just another way to show their anti-Zionism -- as Sephardic Hebrew is the Hebrew of the Zionist state.

i agree with you justine- I think people do need to go and visit to keep the memory alive and lets keep Poland as a memory of millions who lived there for a long long time.I think there is no reason to just cut ties and "forget about the place".It is not productive and we need to keep our kids going there.

This is clearly a personal decision. I would not want to visit death camps. I prefer visiting great yeshivot, focusing on our renewal following the Holocaust. On the other hand I would not forget that the Nazis built Auschwitz for Poles, mainly Catholic, who opposed Hitler. The 'Final Solution' came later. Many Poles were infected with Jew hatred, but many others assisted Jews during those difficult days.