Opinion
Papal visit bad for us
Giora Eiland
Published: 08.05.09, 00:36
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1. Refusing entry = good PR?
Eitan ,   Israel   (05.08.09)
So are you suggesting if Israel "advices" him not to visit - this would result in better PR for Israel? We will just receive leaders who are 100% supportive of Israel (I wonder how many would that be), then we would certainly have the international image of a civilized liberal state. Refusing the head of the Chistian world access to their holy places would be a harmless little stunt with no diplomatic consequences? Probably the international media would make no big deal of this at all. And I am sure that if we punished the pope by not allowing him to come, he would have no choise but become our friend and start saying something nice about us to his people.
2. Meet him at Ben Gurion, let him step foot on Israeli soil...
Bennie ,   Jerusalem   (05.08.09)
then send him home. He can say he visited Israel.
3. not quite...
Robin ,   Montreal, QC, Canada   (05.08.09)
Mr. Eiland is disingenious when he according to the Sunday Times, Ratzinger's father was forced to move and demoted multiple times from his position in the Bavarian state police for the enthusiasm with which he reigned in the Nazi brownshirts. The Pope's cousin, who had Downs Syndrome, was forcibly euthanized by the Nazis. Two years before Ratzinger joined the Hitler Youth in 1941, membership was declared mandatory by the state. The Pope's current actions can and should be challenged, but questioning his past as possibly anti-semitic based on the mere fact of his membership in the organization and his nationality is unfair and careless reporting. Yet even the Pope's current actions, while they are not perfect and sometimes unwise, do not warrant the label "antisemitic". Pope Pius XII, as Rabbi David Dalin acknowledges in his "The Myth of Hitler's Pope", Pius DID in fact more than just "lift a finger". He saved the lives of many thousands of Jews. Arguably, he could and should have done more. But the responsibility for the fate of the millions of murdered innocent Jews and the ability to help them was placed much more clearly on the shoulders of European political leaders who kept insisting on appeasement of Hitler. Even with regard to the disgustingly antisemitic former bishop Williamson and his ultra-conservative brotherhood, not all is as simple as it seems. While I side with Merkel against Benedict and am strongly against reintegrating such bigots into the Church, it must also be mentioned that Williamson is not a bishop in full standing with the church hierarchy, but is still relieved of his power as a bishop due to his statements. His excommunication and its repeal were based not on his obvious antisemitism but on his schismatic religious views and criticism of the Vatican. Antisemitism, while it is not acceptable, cannot be a reason for excommunication. Otherwise, other sinners--bank robbers, sexists, rapists, tax evaders, etc.--would all be subject to excommunication. It would be equivalent to asking the Chief Rabbinate of Israel to somehow declare someone "no longer Jewish" for being a bad person or espousing immoral opinions. And we all know that would be nonsense. So let's be rational about this and invite the Pope to Israel, show him the beauty of this country and its people and strengthen his solidarity with all Jews and with their homeland against its attacks from the enemies of democracy. This is a poorly researched piece, Mr. Eiland. Please check your sources and look at issues in their full complexity. While Catholic authorities are not and should not be beyond reproach, they should nevertheless be given the courtesy of fair and balanced scrutiny. The threat of antisemitism is well and alive in Europe, but I suggest you look for it in sections of Muslim minorities, not in the Papacy.
4. Stupid to have invited him
Semsem ,   New York, USA   (05.08.09)
Stupid to have invited him. Speach at Auschwitz defended the German people plus he has caused enough anger. Like accepting antisemitic prayers etc.
5. DEAR POPE - PLEASE VISIT WWW.ICEJ.ORG
ANDREW ,   MIAMI,FL   (05.08.09)
AND GET IT THOUGH YOUR HEAD ISRAEL HOME, WHOLE, AND FREE TAKE AMINUTE TO READ YOUR BIBLE - AND YOU WOULD UNDERSTAND TAKE A MINUTE TO TAKE OFF YOUR PHARASAIC REGALIA - AND YOULL UNDERSTAND YOU REALLY ARENT WELCOME - BUT ARE BEING WELCOMED IN AN ATTEMPT TO HELP YOU UNDERSTAND THE ROOT OF YOUR CHURCH WHICH YOU HAVE DENIED FOR 2000 YEARS TRY TO LISTEN WHEN YOU ARE THERE
6. A troubling report has crossed my screen
Raymond in DC ,   Washington, USA   (05.08.09)
It's reported on one blog site sympathetic to Israel that the Pope's people requested that all Jewish symbols be removed from the ambulance that would accompany the pope... and that the Foreign Ministry agreed to the request. I haven't seen this elsewhere yet. But if true, it suggests Israel's new leadership exhibits too much of the "whatever makes the Gentile happy" for my taste. No self-respecting nation would accede to such a request.
7. Popey Schmopey
Mattiyahu ,   The Land   (05.08.09)
Let him come only if he returns the pillaged treasures from the 2nd Temple!! ... need I say more?
8. "Good yontif, pontif"...
EARL MANN ,   TORONTO, CANADA   (05.08.09)
Eiland's a smart dude!
9. The guy is still the pope
J K ,   NYC, USA   (05.08.09)
Have him drop by for a little bit and tell him behind closed doors he will get jack until he opens up the Vatican treasury and returns all the Jewish heritage he possesses to it's people. Then we can speak about what the church feels it has a right to.
10. Purpose of trip: gain favor with Arabs
Ilan ,   Ariel   (05.08.09)
It is too late to back out of this, but this trip is an attempt to curry favor with Arab states by bashing Israel and making unreasonable demands. The best thing is to let him in, smile, wave and turn our backs on him. If Netanyhu could put the country's interests first he would forgo the publicity of meeting with the Pope and give that task to someone in the Foreign Ministry. That would be the proper message.
11. Article based on lies
Hana ,   jerusalem   (05.08.09)
For exaple this crucial sentence: "In August 2008, Benedict XVI declared Pope Pius XII a “saint.” " is ABSOLUTE NONSENSE!! All the talkbacks take the Eilands article at face value, but he just twists facts and omits what does not suit to usual Jewish propaganda. Facts: 1. The current Pope obviously tries to keep a controvesrial issue of canonisation od Pius XII in limbo. 2. He anyway inherited the issue from his predecessors.
12. #3 good arguments
Lisa   (05.08.09)
thanks Robin, I second your TB, 20-20 hindsight- the Pope is coming so Israel might as well be a good host-. Israel could have said no to the visit..... it didn't- so now smile and be a gracious host. This article is what many Ynet articles are- badly researched and inflamatory. For many of the accusations there is no proof, it is 'what I heard'..... hearsay-, they have been discussed over and over. The way people talk about a religious leader here is appaling, I would like to try and call your rabbis names like this and there would be a national outcry of 'anti-semite' and worse. Respect goes both ways. we all know the Jews have been wronged- it is brought up in every TB , nobody is likely to forget it. Insult is never acceptable, not from a Christian, not from a Jew- we call ourselves civilized people with some level of intelligence- I hope- this is not the way to solve conflicts. Israel could use some allies- Also, Israelis can do better than to lower themselves to the level of a Ahmadinejad or certain mullahs-, who get their kicks by insulting people and countries- in the name of Allah.... So make fun of something you understand- then it is funny- some of the 'names here are not funny at all-
13. Also he will be here to celebrate "nakba
jason white ,   afula,israel   (05.08.09)
day" with the palis and our fifth column. If he makes one remark about this,then he should be thrown out of Israel. I hope he realizes that this is holy JEWISH land and only JEWISH land he is visiting.
14. $10 million
ed   (05.08.09)
They hung about 20 or 30 pictures of this guy on the way to Gilo. All the same poster. Lo mevinah! Wait till he sees how few christians there are left in Beit Lehem. GO AWAY!
15. Someone thought it would be brilliant to invite the pope.
Bunnie Meyer ,   Los Angeles, CA USA   (05.08.09)
Well it was not a brilliant idea and it will come back to bite Israel in the rear. He will schmoooooze with the terrorists and tell them how bad Israel is and go back to his grand palace where he kindly treated child abusing priests. Fire the person who invited him.
16. Facts
tucherb ,   USA   (05.08.09)
There are 800,000 trees planted in south east Jerusalem that represent the 800,000 Jews the Pope helped save. Here is a book that seems to state another point. The Myth of Hitler's Pope: How Pope Pius XII Rescued Jews from the Nazis. By Rabbi David G. Dalin
17. get your facts straight
Giovanni ,   Milan, Italy   (05.08.09)
Pius XII is still to be made a saint, dude If you want to write such a piece of hate writing, at least get your facts straight
18. visit bad idea? #15 Bunnie
Marc   (05.08.09)
facts: the 'someone who thought it was a good idea to invite the Pope was Shimon Peres ,so get over it and stop the whining. Might as well put on a good face and get it over and done with. Many people in Europe also think it is a bad idea- too much money, too much security, too much hoopla, too much opposition among certain Israelis- what a waste.
19. POPE !!!.
ORAO STRANKA. ,   TSARIGRAD U SRBIA.   (05.08.09)
There should be no doubt about it: The pope is not coming here for purposes of dialogue or reconciliation, or because of his desire to visit the State of Israel. He wants to arrive here because Christianity’s holiest sites “happen to be” under Israeli sovereignty, and just like his predecessors he cannot avoid a visit. AMEN !!!. HIS FAKE CHRISTIANITY AND CHURCH/THE GREAT HARLOT- http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=73&chapter=17&version=8 ARE TRYING TO STEAL TO THEMSELVES, THE TRUE ARTEFACTS/SITES OF TRUE CHRISTIANITY, WHICH BELONGS TO JEHOVAH, THE GOD OF ISRAEL, AND ISRAEL HERSELF. Orao.
20. The pope
Charles ,   Petach Tikva   (05.08.09)
The autor is a little bit distorting the truth . Yes , the young Ratzinger joined the hitlerjugend , at age 6 in 1933 , when it was almost MANDATORY . Later on he had to join the wehrmacht , no possibility for him to avoid it . At the end of the war in 1945 he was 18 years . The then pope pius XII , did'nt say anything openly to condemn the nazi persecution of the Jews , not even after the war . That's true . But it is also true that around 400 found refuge at the vaatican , and more than 4000 in vatican properties in Italy . When writing something , at least be honest and a little bit objective . I'm not defending the church here , only give true facts .
21. MY TALKBACK NUMBER 19.
ORAO STRANKA. ,   TSARIGRAD U SRBIA.   (05.08.09)
WRONG LINK AGAIN, IT SHOULD BE CHAPTER 17 IN THE APOCALYPSE. THE GREAT HARLOT , THE SO CALLED ROMAN CATOLIC CHURCH - http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=73&chapter=17&version=8 HOPFULLY ITS FUNKTIONING THIS TIME. Orao.
22. Author is right. Visit is troubling.
Steve   (05.08.09)
On a personal basis, I know fine Catholics. The Vatican's position on Israel has been troubling however. Vatican did not establish formal relations with Israel until 1993. Vatican was against Israel's establishment and has courted favor with Israel's enemies, including arch-terrorist Yasser Arafat and Mahmoud Abbas. The Church's position relative to Pope Pius XII is troubling indeed as is the reinstatement of Biship Williamson. There is plenty of good scholarship on Pius. At best he was silent throughout the genocide against Europe's Jews. At worst he was complicit in the atrocities. The Jews are very self-critical when it comes to our past behavior. Look at Israel's angst during and after just about every war. Open any prophetic book in the Jewish Bible. All our sins and our disobedience is recorded for posterity. Not so with the Church. There are many apoligetics out there. The Church is beyond reproach. It is akin to God; without stain, spot or blemish. There is no reckoning with her violent and bloody, anti-Jewish past. I note the mention, in a post above, of Rabbi David G. Dalin's apologetic on Puis' behavior during the before and during the Holocaust. Pope Pius XII as Vatican Secretary of State, made a concordate with Adolf Hitler. Rabbi Dalin is a professor of history and political science at Ave Maria University, a Roman Catholic university.
23. #20: Integrity is important; true
Steve   (05.08.09)
There were those who resisted Hitler at the cost of their lives. Young German men and women, boys and girls gave their lives. The White Rose is a case in point; Hans Scholl, his sister Sophie and other German youthful dissenters were murdered by the gestapo. Whether young Ratzinger did or did not resist Adolf Hitler is questionable. There appears to be evidence he has not fully come to terms with his service in the Hitler Youth. Let us not forget, Razinger's savior did give his life according to the historical narrative. How much more his viceroy on earth?
24. No Palestinian PR is better than this..
Palestinian ,   Nablus Palestine   (05.08.09)
Great article, and great talkbacks...this will bring 1.1 billion Roman Catholics Christians to our side ..with passion this time. Together with your new government, the foreign minster's intelligent announcements.. No matter what we did bad in our PR ..you are just making it easy for us..keeping silent is the best thing for us..you are doing the job Thank you...and see you west of us..:)
25. Regardless of Ynet bias..
Sean ,   Montreal, Quebec   (05.08.09)
...to allow usubstantiated claims of anti semitism, there is a rather quick red pencil whenever someone attempts to mention a reverse discrimination. The two accusations in this article are fundamentaly false. Williamson, while holding what are regarded as sinful views of denial was not excommunicated for such statements nor was Pius canonized in August of 2008. Canonizations in 2008 took place at St Peter's in October and he was not amongst one of the four. This permissive aproach to the repetition of falsehoods is insidious at best. The dictates of responsible journalism behooves a retraction on the part of Ynet.
26. #24/ Pope is visiting to administer last rites to Christians
Thomas   (05.08.09)
The Pope must know that if his policies of pressuring Israel to give away its heartland of Judea and Samaria to Muslims are successful, it will cause even more violent persecution of Christians in those areas, and ultimately the end of the dwindling Christian communities in the region.
27. Cornwell
Giovanni ,   Milan, Italy   (05.08.09)
...and let us add the Mr. Cornwell (that is the right spelling) has alredy distanced himself from the book he wrote on Pius XII in several istancens, including an interview to The Economist. It looks like Eiland did not make his homework.
28. #27:Cornwell
Steve   (05.08.09)
John Cornwell, Catholic author of "Hitler's Pope: The Secret History of Pius XII," was unmercifully hounded by the Church and Church officials. Consequently, his partial retraction was sad but not unsurprising. Cornwell wrote that "Pius XII had so little scope of action that it is impossible to judge the motives for his SILENCE during the war....." He went on: "But even if his prevarications and silences were performed with the best of intentions, he had an obligation in the post-war period to explain those actions....As it was, he not only failed to explain and apologize for his reticence but he claimed retrospective moral superiority for having spoken candidly." Abraham Lincoln wrote: "To sin by silence when they know they should protest, makes cowards of men." I agree. To say Pope Pius XII had little scope of action as Vicar of Christ on earth would be akin to claiming Jesus Christ also had little scope of action but we know this was not the case. Pius' savior was in no way silent. Unlike Pius, he was not a moral coward.
29. #24
David ,   USA, exile   (05.08.09)
We will gladly give you your 1.5 billion catholics. You can add them to your billions of ba'al kissing muslims. We will provide our Champion, The G-d of Avraham, Isaac, and Jacob. Then we will see how quickly your golieth hits the dirt. I only hope that y-net has the guts to post this one. My track record on getting my posts released is not very good lately.
30. bad for everybody
david ,   naharia   (05.08.09)
religion is a cancer that must be destroyed. All of them. And we will be free.
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