Talula, I think you have a point here. Laws are one thing- rules that are enforced no matter what, are another. #28 Paquid: this is the first time I agree with you- almost 100%. Many people have become like lemmings- they have forgotten how to think- the blind following the blind. you are right also: there might not be any 100% proof that the woman's husband WAS on the flight. If however he was a member of the community and a religious person- I would not even think of him blowing up a plane he has not boarded himself- this seems a bit far fetched ( it has happened of course- but those were criminals or deranged people-). Somebody said the husband was a rabbi? I don't know if this is rumor or truth- but we may assume he was a good person and loved member of the community. For something to make the news we can also assume it was an upsetting and controversial event- ? Somebody was upset enough to take it to the papers- and it was most likely from within the community. Most TB's showed great sympathy for the widow and her children- less sympathy for the rabbis who have insisted on enforcing an ancient tradition/ruling.

Your response is well reasoned and taken. I wasn't suggesting that the scenario I posed is correct; merely that there are many other possibilities that include not even having been aboard the doomed aircraft. He could have overslept and missed the plane and have some personal reason for hiding. While these aren't likely for a religious guy, he could have gotten car trouble somewhere and just be stuck for a couple of days. These are all unlikely but the point is that the rabbis are correct in making a reasonable effort to verify the facts instead of going off half-cocked like most of the tb-ers. I suspect, sadly, that he was on the plane. I also suspect that the rabbis will obtain whatever relevant facts are available and reach the appropriate conclusion in a reasonable manner. There should be sympathy for both the bereaved family and the rabbis. They're not on opposite sides and I'm sure the rabbis are trying to comfort the family as well. The ones I lack sympathy for are many tb-ers who lack compassion, integrity or responsibility. Paqid Yirmeyahu The Netzarim, Ra'anana, Israel Israeli Orthodox Torah Jew (Teimani Baladi Dardai) Advocate for Logic as Halakhic Authority Welcoming Jews & non-Jews www.netzarim.co.il

But they certainly had ships, caravans, and long journeys abroad for purposes of trade. The possibility of not having a body to bury was very much an existing issue back then, much more so than today! The world has become a lot safer today - when you depart on a long journey today, you most likely survive. We can keep track of our loved one's movements through cell phones, email, satellite, across the world, where once we had absolutely *no* idea what was happening to them. You make assumptions about the Halacha that aren't true, Talula. If anything, the last two centuries eliminated a great deal of the uncertainty that used to exist, and Halachic debates about this uncertainty of life and death was what created the status of Agunah in the first place, with abandoning husbands being much rarer than sunk ships, slaver attacks, piracy, marauders attacking caravans, or just plain dropping dead 2,000km away from home without anyone to see it. And in all those examples the husband could be alive or dead, and without remains or witnesses there was nothing to truly base his death on. As for what's happening in France just now... here's the thing, people can survive plane crashes, especially at sea. Planes are prepared, with life jackets and life boats, to allow for survival at sea. So there *is* uncertainty, even if the likeliness of survival is low. So as it stands I can see the reasoning behind the ruling, if only to wait and see further evidence of what remained of the plane and its passengers.

This woman's husband is still missing. The world is MUCH MUCH more dangerous now than it ever was back then, get real man! Life has become more fast than it used to be - they didn't have WMD back then, they didn't have guns, rockets, missiles and the like. Today we have trained dogs to sniff out just about anything - and still, bodies go missing. What about 911 for instance? Cell phones didn't help them - emails and GPS didn't save 3,000+ bodies from being exsiccated and reduced to a spec the size of an atom. Jews were among the dead. How was each body recovered for burial? They were not. It would have been an absolutely impossible task. So, what happened to the widows? Time for an update - Halacha, Version 2009 should be released.

It's a transliteration of פקיד, meaning (in Biblical Hebrew) monitor, musterer or overseer. In modern Hebrew, it means "clerk." If Ynet software handles vowels, it's פָּקִיד It is not an English word and not subject to English grammar. There is no "u" in paqid.

Lisa at least is HONEST , we know she is not Jewish . This paqid , or better "little employee" , tries to make us , Jews and non Jews alike , believe that he is a Jew . Only unaware persons will believe his lies . He is a self proclaimed convert , without any TRUE Orthodox Rabbanut recognizing this . Go to your church where you belong . Lisa , i'm sorry if i insulted you , by "associating" your name with this fake guy .

This woman has voluntarely accepted to follow the Jewish laws , thus the Halachah . So why criticize the Halachah regarding this painfull case ? I think that the article states that the Rabbanim did'nt IMMEDIATELY call her a widow , they had to be sure on her husbands fate , is'nt this logic ?

There HAS to be more to the story than this. Because as it stands, the halakhah is open-and-shut with many precedents that she is NOT an agunah. In the case of a happily married couple who could contact each other and don't, the man is considered dead. Historical rulings about "perhaps he is on the other side of the sea" don't apply any more, since the advent of modern communication systems. -micha

I apologize Paqid for spelling your name wrong- English is not my first language and the tiny little window for comments does not help.... sorry. I will remember, I promise. Your point is well taken. Of course he could have missed the plane- and the rabbis were right to make sure the woman is really a widow- . It is unlikely that he missed the plane and did not let his family know- almost everybody carries a cell phone today... The way the article was written however makes is sound like there was maybe a bit too much zealous 'going by the book'. At a time like this grieving people need support. I hope the woman did get it from her community.

I have never pretended to be Jewish- and I always make sure people are aware of it. I do not care what Paqid's religious affiliation is- his, nor anybody else's. I respect religious people, as I respect every human being. For me every person is equal. I ask question or speak up when I see people, especially women and children being abused, neglected, taken advantage of. This can happen anywhere- it is a worldwide problem. Well meaning leaders, religious and secular, often abuse their superior position. It is more of a problem in male dominated societies and organisations- as most religions are. Since traditionally religious leaders were men, it will take another couple of hundred years I am sure until women are allowed to take off the apron and come out of the kitchen, LOL. yeah- I read Tbs....

You can take the route from Tel-Aviv to Jerusalem without the fear of being accosted by brigands, traveling mercenary groups moving to their next war, or the fear of just dropping dead after catching plague from some diseased shanty town along the way. You can travel across the world and people don't start mourning you the moment you leave, thinking you're crazy and suicidal - quite the contrary, they ask you to send postcards. Travel between most countries doesn't require that you carry an assortment of weapons on your person, or armed escorts, and doesn't require that you place yourself at the mercies of an unstable vessel that travels in unfamiliar waters. No one expects you to die from scurvy as you go to America. A millennium ago the average life expectancy was little over 30 years in Middle Ages Europe and the Islamic Caliphate of the same period. The only people to live beyond 40 were the most highly privileged of the nobility and merchant classes, and to anyone else 30 was old age. Today people who have lived over twice that time are still going. We've moved to a worldwide average lifespan of 70. We don't have the Black Death ravaging two thirds of our populace, or endless wars and genocides to take away the same figures at times when plagues abate. Families don't bring 15 children to the world because only one in three survives his first year of life. The world is no longer Terra Incognita, and nor is every corner a death trap. There used to be a time when *most of the planet* was quite similar to Somalia and the Palestinian Authority in terms of chaos and strife, and even the most stable kingdoms and republics of the day had average death tolls that would utterly shock us today. What we do have is more destructive *potential*, which fortunately kindles rarely. We have the *ability* to cause total destruction but, by and large, we have made our world easier for us to live in just as we have made the tools with which we can destroy it. As for 9/11, there was no uncertainty there. The probability of survival in a collapsing building of that size that is filled up with burning fuel floor by floor is so tiny as to be insignificant - much the same as surviving a large volcano eruption when living next to it. Eyewitness accounts and expert estimates are quite enough in such cases, as the Halacha already took possibility of no body surviving events (or being irrecoverable) ages ago, and with every ruling on every new matter the Halacha is updated, as it always has been over the centuries. The Halacha doesn't stand still - every new item, event, or possibility raises questions that need to be answered, and debates and attempts to answer them follow. Again, Talula - your assumptions regarding Halacha standing still are without basis.

You can take the route from Tel-Aviv to Jerusalem without the fear of being accosted by brigands, traveling mercenary groups moving to their next war, or the fear of just dropping dead after catching plague from some diseased shanty town along the way. You can travel across the world and people don't start mourning you the moment you leave, thinking you're crazy and suicidal - quite the contrary, they ask you to send postcards. Travel between most countries doesn't require that you carry an assortment of weapons on your person, or armed escorts, and doesn't require that you place yourself at the mercies of an unstable vessel that travels in unfamiliar waters. No one expects you to die from scurvy as you go to America. A millennium ago the average life expectancy was little over 30 years in Middle Ages Europe and the Islamic Caliphate of the same period. The only people to live beyond 40 were the most highly privileged of the nobility and merchant classes, and to anyone else 30 was old age. Today people who have lived over twice that time are still going. We've moved to a worldwide average lifespan of 70. We don't have the Black Death ravaging two thirds of our populace, or endless wars and genocides to take away the same figures at times when plagues abate. Families don't bring 15 children to the world because only one in three survives his first year of life. The world is no longer Terra Incognita, and nor is every corner a death trap. There used to be a time when *most of the planet* was quite similar to Somalia and the Palestinian Authority in terms of chaos and strife, and even the most stable kingdoms and republics of the day had average death tolls that would utterly shock us today. What we do have is more destructive *potential*, which fortunately kindles rarely. We have the *ability* to cause total destruction but, by and large, we have made our world easier for us to live in just as we have made the tools with which we can destroy it. As for 9/11, there was no uncertainty there. The probability of survival in a collapsing building of that size that is filled up with burning fuel floor by floor is so tiny as to be insignificant - much the same as surviving a large volcano eruption when living next to it. Eyewitness accounts and expert estimates are quite enough in such cases, as the Halacha already took possibility of no body surviving events (or being irrecoverable) ages ago, and with every ruling on every new matter the Halacha is updated, as it always has been over the centuries. The Halacha doesn't stand still - every new item, event, or possibility raises questions that need to be answered, and debates and attempts to answer them follow. Again, Talula - your assumptions regarding Halacha standing still are without basis.

There are no brigands anymore on the Jerusalem - Tel Aviv road . That's right . But there are other dangerous people on this , and other , roads : some DRIVERS .

Yes , you are , contrary to this deceiving paqid , very Honest . We know that you are'nt Jewish , not a problem for me at all . I too respect TRUE and honest believers , not FAKE ones nor missionaries . You come up against abuse , more people from all sectors should do it . The whole world is male dominated . But it has changed already a little bit . There were , and are , women in the highest possible political positions . Angela Merkel , Indira Gandhi and of course our Golda Meir are only some i will name . PS i wrote a long TB to you with some facts about this fake and deceiving guy , a self proclaimed convert , authority and so on . Not published

This problem arose after 9 / 11. If the husband had phoned to say he was trapped on an upper floor that was used as evidence, but in most cases it took time to check all the hospitals etc. in case he had escaped. These are dreadful situations for wives and children.

They're nowhere near as safe as we'd like them to be *by the standards of today*, which we have raised to be much higher than what they used to be.

U really make me laugh halcha 2009 should be released to be honest judging by your posts you wouldn't follow halacha 2009 anyway!!! i think u should stop puting ur nose in to things you obviously dont understand

So no comparison possible .

documentation, findings and so on. By and large, life tended to be violent and short centuries ago.

Well have the rabbi decided whether the lady has a right to mourn? That's what this is all about. We are not speaking of history, geography nor economics. What are the chances of the lady's husband being found alive? ZERO !! Unfortunately it means quite clearly that the lady has become a widow from the time that plane hit the water. Hope the rabbis come to a logical conclusion before the lady dies of old age.

Not only centuries ago , but even 50 years ago . There you can find PRECISE stats . I don't know if there were more people killed by murderers on the roads , than today by accidents . There are maybe estimates , documentation and so on . But precise numbers you can rely on ? no as far as known to me .

Poor woman, lost her husband,and is in pain. And what the horney rabbis think of , she wants to marry. Rabbis you are sick in the brains.

Where was it written that she wants to marry ? your stomme interpretation ! . Ezel .

It's not really a big deal if two authority bodies don't quite agree on when to declare someone dead - this could easily happen between two secular or two religious ones. It is more tragic that the plane crashed, and we can all only hope that his widow has good friends around her as she sits shiva. It's insensitive to give this much press to questions of her status while she's no doubt in a lot of pain.

Talula! I think that the term "abandoned" in this case is ill fitting. The discussion here is whether there is a chance that R' Shlomo could be alive.. since we have no remains to verify this, a women may become "aguna" . But the conclusion of the article clearly states that according to the rabbis it seems reasonable to assume he didn't survive the terrible crash in which case she recieves a widow status and will not have issues to remary. I hope this helps!