Jewish Scene  Rabbi Michael Graetz
Identity crisis in Israel
Rabbi Michael Graetz
Published: 19.07.09, 08:55
Comment Comment
Print comment Print comment
Back to article
24 Talkbacks for this article
1. will you destroy Israeli Jewish society the way masorti has
Jon ,   Providence, RI   (07.19.09)
done for US Jewry at a 60% intermarriage clip? Please change a lot and then talk. Until then youre a more conservative and traditional reform group with no backbone as well.
2. democracy for men
observer   (07.19.09)
In the book of Genesis: God is said to have created man first, from the “dust of the ground,” and then later created woman from Adam’s rib, because “it is not good that the man should be alone; I will make him a help meet for him.” Thus, woman appears in the creation story as secondary to man. The Talmud adds to the role of the woman/wife/mother the important task of freeing her husband from mundane household tasks so that he will be free to study the Torah. In matters of inheritance, Jewish law is unfavorable to women: A daughter inherits from her father only if he has no sons, and a wife does not inherit from her husband, though she is entitled to be supported by his estate as long as she does not remarry. If a woman dies, her husband inherits all her possessions. Why does Torah law allow polygamy? Rabbi Tarfon married 300 women since he was a Kohen and received the priestly tithes. "If a man will have two wives, one beloved and the other hated..." a man must provide "food, clothing and conjugal rights" commensurate to her needs, his capacity and equal to any other wives. Additionally, the husband must provide separate housing for each wife.
3. WHAT IS MASOTI IN YOUR HEADING!!
again   (07.19.09)
RELATED TO OSCAR BRE n ER perhaps...??
4. Dati Leumi
Ben ,   Jerusalem   (07.19.09)
Israel's Nationalist-religious community has absorbed Jews from the US to Russia, Ethiopia to India, and embraced them into traditional Torah and Zionism... Our men and women defend the country in the army, help build Israel's industries, and secure the continuation of our tradition. The liberal revolution you suggest is unfortunately completely misguided and spells nothing but assimilation in the end...
5. Wrong approach
Ariel Ben Yochanan ,   Kfar Tapuah, Efraim,   (07.19.09)
B"H By replacing Halacha (Jewish Law) with "people's own sense of morality", you actually undermine Torah. Not only. As Torah kept us alive through recorded history, by doing so you undermine your followers lives in this world and of course in the World to Come too. Not only. Replacing the Jewish value-system with the alien ideas of the nations, like democracy, you are actually working towards the destruction of the Jewish people as a nation too. Numbers 33:50-56 is a good example. Should we tell the people to re-write the Torah and read it according to your sense of “morals” or shall we say to them loud and clear that what is written there is a mitzvah? I have no doubt in my mind that the correct, Jewish answer is the latter. You might accuse me of fundamentalism and I promise you I’d not get hurt. On the other hand you must ask yourself: by changing the meaning of Hashem’s words according to my own criteria, am I guilty of chillul Hashem (desecration of G-d’s Name)?
6. Conservative movement
E.G. Cohl ,   Bnei Brak, Israel   (07.19.09)
Why do you want to do here in Eretz Yisroel what you have in America.Amongst my friends children product of the the Conservative movement at least one of their children have intermarried.
7. masorati = assimilation = US Jewry today
dmgold ,   Pardes Channa Israel   (07.19.09)
After successfully leading the US Jewish community to self destruction, the reform and conservative movements are looking to Israel as the only meat left in the market place. In another generation the only surviving Jews in the US will be those attached to Orthodoxy. After destroying US judaism in little more than 2 generations I think it best to keep this opportunistic lot out of Israel.
8. agree and disagree
moshe ,   israel   (07.19.09)
I have been saying for some time that Israelis need to embrace their judaism. afterall, without judaism, there is not reason for the state of israel to exist right? ultimately, masorti, aka conservative judaism has failed to maintain jewish blood in the usa. the intermarriage rate is sky high. little by little people have left the conservative movement looking for either more orthodox structure or liberal congregations, the middle no longer exists! Iin principle, the conservative movement can maintain judaism in a secular non jewish land (USA). but in the jewish state- it is respect, and pride of one's heritage that is needed. this is sorely lacking.
9. What's wrong with intermarriage?
Radka ,   Athens, Greece   (07.19.09)
It sure beats inbreeding. Ask any doctor.
10. Intermarriage
Leon ,   Grand Rapids USA   (07.19.09)
In the US, intermarriage is rampant. But it is not restricted to any particular stream of Judaism. Orthodox kids intermarry at the same rate as Conservatives do, and for the same reasons. The attack on Conservative Judaism alleging it results in intermarriage is untrue, and pernicious.
11. WHAT IS BEING CONSERVED?
al mann ,   Jerusalem, Israel   (07.19.09)
It is my impression that very little of the constitution of the Children of Israel, given at Mount Sinai is being saved or conserved since it is a mistake to think of ourselves as a religion. Nowhere in our sources are we mentioned as a religion. How many times is it written that we are a nation, a people? Observing that constitution is our job as a people and that document has been whittled and abridged to such an extent that nothing remains. So what has been conserved???
12. JESUSALEN
JESUSALEN ,   JESUSALEN   (07.19.09)
JESUSALEN is the revelation of the lord jesus messiah (jitgalut 21)
13. culture vs. bloodline
izzy d   (07.19.09)
@10 leon you claim that orthodox intermarry at the same rate as conservatives. you are a liar. the mistake that many who are unfamiliar to the debate make is that the conservative movement is more modern and with the times while the orthodox congregation feeling threatened by this rejects them. the truth is: conservatives view judiaism as an ethnicity and a heritage. in other words Judaism is their culture and they feel that by staying true to the culture they are considered to be Jewish as well. of course they might disregard some quaint and outdated notions that have piggybacked on the Jewish culture from mideveal times but essentially they identify themselves as Jewish. the crazy thing is that they reject the real integral and intrinsic values of jewdiaism as defined by the greatest jewish sages (like the rambam) but that means little to them. so intermarriage is not that big of a deal if they can pointy to the marriage down the road with three kids and say "gee the kids are being raised as jews, so its not really that bad". but for the orthodox or really anyone who takes the bible seriously in any way knows that the laws of who is a jew and who isnt are very simple and explicit.
14. Sorry to say Conservative does more damage than good (end)
Dave Neil ,   Jerusalem Israel   (07.19.09)
15. TRUE JEWISH RELIGIOUS FOUNDATION !!!.
ORAO STRANKA. ,   TSARIGRAD U SRBIA.   (07.20.09)
JUDAISM AS A RELIGION, IS FOUNDED IN THE TWO MAIN COMANDMENT IN OLD TESTAMENT. 1. TO LOVE JEHOWAH WITH ALL ONES PERSONAL CAPASITY. 2. TO LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOUR AS ONESELF. ON THOSE BOTH COMANDMENTS HINGS ALL LAWS AND PROPHESY. AL OTHER OBSERVANCES ARE OF MINOR IMPORTANCE. IF ONE DO NOT OBEY THOSE TWO COMANDMENTS ABOVE, ALL OTHER OBSEVANCES ARE ONLY SELFDECEPTIONS. IF ONE SEPARATES ONESELF FROM OTHER JEWISH BROTHERS, BECAUSE OF ANY MINOR COMANDMENT THAN SINS AGAINST THOSE TWO ABOWE, ONE IS SINNING AGAINST THE BODY OF JEHOWHA / ISRAEL AS A WHOLE. THIS IS A TEOCRATIC RULE AND HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH DEMOCRACY . BUT THIS JUDAISM IS NOT ONLY FOR JEWS, BUT FOR ALL SONS OF JACOB. THUS - Malachi 4 1"For behold, the day cometh that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly shall be stubble. And the day that cometh shall burn them up," saith the LORD of hosts, "that it shall leave them neither root nor branch. 2But unto you that fear My name shall the Sun of Righteousness arise with healing in His wings; and ye shall go forth and grow up as calves from the stall. 3And ye shall tread down the wicked, for they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet in the day that I shall do this," saith the LORD of hosts. 4"Remember ye the Law of Moses, My servant, which I commanded unto him in Horeb for all Israel, with the statutes and judgments. 5"Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the LORD. 6And he shall turn the heart of the fathers to the children, and the heart of the children to their fathers, lest I come and smite the earth with a curse." ISRAELISM OR ISRAEL AS A STATE, CAN ONLY BE UPHOLD AND MAINTAINED BY JEHOWAH. Orao.
16. Judaism is NOT a religion...
(07.20.09)
nor a philosophy, nor a way of life, nor any belief system. It is the only thing to go by and adhere to. It is a blessing to the world.
17. to #10 leon
mike ,   usa   (07.20.09)
are you kidding? intermarriage has the same rate in orthodox communities as conservative? you might be dyslexic and therefore are reading things backwards in conservative its 60% in orthodox its 06%
18. to leon #10 about intermariage and affiliation
Ezra ,   Canada   (07.20.09)
Here are the numbers from the US National Jewish Population Survey made in 2001 : Unaffiliated = 70% intermarriage Reform&Conservative = 40% intermarriage Orthodox = 3% intermarriage No more comment needed.
19. TALKBACK NUMBER 2.
ORAO STRANKA. ,   TSARIGRAD U SRBIA.   (07.20.09)
TEOCRATIC RULE AND THE CHOSEN BY JEHOWAH. IN THE NEW TESTAMENT THE APOSTLE PAUL SPEAKS AGAINST WOMEN, AS TEACHERS IN THE LAW OR WORD OF GOD THUS - "HAS THE WORD OF GOD COME THROUGH YOU OR ONLY TO YOU" ???. OBVIOUSLY NOT. THIS SHOWS WHOM JEHOWAH HAS CHOSEN FOR THIS TASK. Orao.
20. Jews are free to practice Judaism in Israel
observer   (07.20.09)
This week in Yemen, a Jewish woman converted to Islam 2 weeks after her escaping the wedding to a Jew and married a Muslim. Jews are free to practice Judaism in Israel which of course does not include murder of neighbor goyim and robbery of their property.
21. So the concensus is
Shalom   (07.20.09)
Conservative is unwanted
22. TALKBACK 21.
ORAO STRANKA. ,   TSARIGRAD U SRBIA.   (07.20.09)
I WOULD RATHER SAY - THE CONCENSUS IS THAT - "RELIGIOUS SEKTERISM IS UNWANTED" !!!. Orao.
23. #8: Mantain Jewish Blood? My G'd, how awful that sounds!
Oren ,   Or Yehuda   (07.20.09)
Moshe, my friend...When you say something like that..."failed to maintain jewish blood", do you even realize who do you sound like? Do you remember how many millions of our brethren died due to people professing just such concepts?
24. Conservative
Proud Jew ,   Israel   (07.21.09)
I have several friends here in Israel who were raised Conservative but later became Orthodox. They all say that they are now the only ones in their extended families raising Jewish children as their siblings and cousins have all intermarried. The Conservative movement is not too much different from the Reform. They both have a very high intermarriage rate, while the Orthodox one is very, very low.
Back to article