laws and agreements, then? Because that *is* a newsworthy item, rather than any concern over the sign's modesty - which is up to the residents of each and every municipal council. The municipal councils rarely consider the standards and requirements of the actual populace that upholds and elects them, at least not when it becomes a financial concern. I'm glad that in Bnei-Brak there's at least some basic concern.

Anymore I can't turn the TV on without seeing some gay people, disrespectful children, trendy adultery, sleek hoars, coveting reality TV, disrespectful children to parents, pagan training, murder glamourization, town fools doing fowl things, false witness court shows, uncovered nakedness, and love of evil people without exception. It teaches to break virtually every commandment ever given . The anti-torah that we speak about in our house, while we walk on our way and we post it on our billboards, walls and gates. It is dog food. Satan's squaker. Destine to decay society and our blessings. I can see this and I am not a hassidim. We need to take control of our lives as a nation and turn this programming around to something that builds a good society rather than copies the failings of the US and their fat angry criminal class children. Who doesn't disrespect humanity after watching week after week of survivor contestants lie, cheat and betray with deceptions. It is crap that shows kids "this is how it is won",

So you watched . HYPOCRITE goy .

By advertising in this poor medieval society living in Bne berak . What a bunch of hypocrites there in Bne berak , they are offended but go to Bar Ilan to watch porn .

i think you might find it to your liking.

So all Haredim are hypocrites, medieval, and what else? Perhaps they're also evil hook-nosed money-grubbers? Haven't you learned yet that stereotypes and generalizations don't help you at all? Or anyone else, for that matter? Anyhow, I couldn't care one bit about what the company spent money on - as the company representatives themselves say, they openly disregard clauses in their agreements that give the municipal council any control of the posters placed in their territory. Maybe it's time to end this approach?

towards those medieval poor non contributing people ? You see , Roman , i'm generalising because you , and your alikes , only want to impose your lifestyle on US , and i'm fed up with this . You , and your alikes , with your behaviour , make me becoming intolerant towards all of you . And this i can't forgive you . Maybe it's time to end this censorship ? maybe it's time to let people live ? maybe it's time to end those fanatic riots ? When clauses were'nt observed , why should they censor an innocent poster ? was there something offending ? a naked woman ? What will be their next step ? not allow me to watch TV Shabbat ?

by getting this controversy in the newspapers and tv news shows, they just got a whole lot of free advertising for their show. maybe it was planned that way?

Maybe not even wasted at all , if i'm right by thinking [ the picture ! ] that those posters were placed over the Jabotinsky Road where thousands of people come every day .

believing certain clauses will NOT be enforced! The contact states that all ads must meet with the approval of the local authority. The billboard company should NOT be surprised when this clause is enforced!! Quote: "The source said such a clause appears in contracts with other local authorities as well, but is nothing more than a 'dead letter'." Pretty bad way to run a company, putting clauses into contracts you never expect to abide by. Take the clause OUT, if you don't want it to be enforced!

All the great businessmen keeping their word. All the religious and racial pesecution and ageism. The cult policing to shut out Americans and pigeonhole converts into isolation. The bum rush manner of handling verbal disputes. Yeah, Afganistan can't be much worse. No need to move. But Avi, if that is your name, if you like TV land so much go to Hollywood. You can have all the gay liberal dog food you want. Charles will go with.

...and believe me, they try not to sign anything.

Have I supported violent riots, Charles? Has the vast majority of the religious, or ultra-Orthodox public? No. But that doesn't stop you from smearing us all with the same brush. As for us "poor", "non-contributing" people, we contribute more with every passing day, and many of us contribute more than you ever did in your life. And you keep saying that *we* impose on *you*, and yet *you* impose on *us* on a daily, regular basis - the best example is advert signs, Charles. Many of them *are* immodest, with sex being the biggest advertising point for nearly any show or product - even in the public sphere. What *I* saw in this article was Bnei-Brak's municipal council using the power vested in it by its own populace, paid by their taxes, and finally upheld. This wasn't about modesty - this was about *principle*, about not finding out about this or that matter not being agreeable in the poster *after* its already up, but *before*. That's something I'd like to see other municipal councils take into consideration, rather than merely looking at the monetary value of leasing the space for ads. No one's going into your house and forcing you to observe religious concerns, so stop trying to paint it as if there is.

I hope that some of you contributed more to the State in your whole life here , as i did in the less than 8 years i'm living here . But contrary to them , i do NOT receive any agora , NOTHING exept bills to pay . I'm not complaining , it would be ammoral for me to receive something . You Impose on us , YES . Shabbat : no public transport , cafes or restaurants . Yom kippour , nothing , not even radio or TV . Who is impoosing this ? the seculars ? This was accepted in the beginning of the State , now we feel that you impose it . And closed roads Shabbat ? And stones thrown at cars ? Or "shabbes" shouting ? Posters immodest ? Not at all . Something nice may be shown . I prefer this over some of the charidi women [ or this charidi guy in my town who is truly disgusting ] Those ad firms should stop advertising on Jabotinsky road in Bne berak , there is space in Ramat Gan too . Of course , now there is nobody coming to my house to tell me what to do , but they would like it if they could .

Because we don't see or hear any of your leaders pronouncing himself against those facts . Well i hope that some of you have contributed more in their life here as i did in the less than 8 years in Israel . But , contrary to them , i do not receive any agora . Yes you impose on us . Those days without buses what is this ? It was accepted in the beginning of the State , now we feel this as something you impose . And you want more and more . It's only a minority ? yes , but it's they that we hear , see and feel whe4n we receive a stone on our car or are shouted "shabbes" while driving . Those advertisers should stop advertising on Jabotinsky road in Bne Berak , or have the municipality to accept their rules . They pay , and there is a saying : Le client est Roi , client is the King . Yes , they look at the monetary side , certainly when they are poor . I agree , for the moment nobody is trying to impose his ideas in my home . but they would like if they could . They interfere already more than enough when asking : have you put on your tefilin today , or tell my grandchildren to say a Bracha for a cookie . PS . When i writeYou , it's not meant at you personally . I know that you oppose violence and so .

is barely worth a response, because that's how *bigots* respond. You blacks, you Jews, etc. For people who talk like that, there is usually no point for further debate, because *everything is already decided in advance*. Hence why I have a very direct problem whenever you use that kind of speech. You speak of us imposing on you, and yet you ignore matters where you impose on us - that's one of the problems, when you take *your* rights as a given of "normal society'", and ours as something abnormal that is, at best, a nuisance. This isn't just your country, Charles - it's also mine. And I have as much say about how this country will look like today and tomorrow as you do. You define your view of the ultra-Orthodox society, and the religious in general, by the acts of a few stone-throwing hooligans and people who annoy you when shouting "Shabbes!"? Then should I define my view of secular society by crime families, stone-throwing protesters in Bel'in, and knife-totting gangs in the streets? Because that's what you imply as normal for judging a group of people. As for the ad, I should certainly hope that the actual sovereign of the area decides what gets placed on billboards - the municipality, and not some ad company. There are more than enough people who want to buy ad space, and there's more in life than some spare change from selling ad space.

opposing those acts made by those stone throwing guys . It's not an isolated Roman or some others who oppose this , who can influence them . You do not want to impose some things on us , very nice . But you are'nt alone . You want some freedom ? we too . We want buses , radio and TV 365 days a year . Don't forget that amongst those [ extreme ] religious people many opposed the creation of the state . Now some of them also want to impose their lifestyle on everyone in Jerusalem . It's they that we hear and see , and as we don't see any opposition against them , this means that all the religious agree .

So you have never, *ever* heard a religious Jew, least of all a Rabbi, oppose *placing lives in danger* and *desecrating Shabbat*? Because that's what stone-throwing on Shabbat amounts to - the mere act of lifting the rock is desecrating Shabbat, as it is מוקצה מחמת גופו - meaning that it forbidden for use it has no pre-defined use for Shabbat itself. And throwing a stone on a passing car is a tantamount to trying to kill the driver in Judaism. So why don't you go and talk to actual Rabbis rather than wait for them to speak to you through the secular press. Every single religious Jew knows about the matters I mentioned above - that you do not merely speaks of your ignorance, and that you expect others to reach out to you in the comfort of your own house. And what I currently hear from you is that you want to eliminate the scant few Jewish marks the country has, essentially turning it into yet another secularist country like many others across the world. And yes, I know there are religious extremists - there are also secular extremists, many of whom are *also* opposed to the existence of the state. Or did you somehow miss the extreme left? Some of them are also violent - or did you miss the anarchists? And your assumption of our approval of the violence, which has been condemned even by the Jerusalemite Eda HaCharedit's own leadership (and that got mention here on Ynet in one of the protest-related articles as well, when the Eda sent out people to convince protesters to disperse), is patently false. All I see here is assumptions and stereotypes that you expect us to "disprove" because you never actually bothered to check them up. It's like anti-Semitism in WWII-era Imperial Japan. Apparently, there should have been Jews here, running around and trying to disprove it all somehow. We're tired of being on the defensive, Charles. We're tired of generalizations, stereotypes, and slurs. You judge us solely by news reports on the secular press, which lives off sensationalism - because sensationalism sells papers. How about *you* start trying to talk to *us*, instead of us constantly having to disprove silly generalizations that are based on crooked logic and distrust of the "other"? We're not far away - most of the time we live pretty close. Ask and we'll answer, as will Rabbis - don't expect us to rush out to you with explanatory pamphlets if you come with your accusations and demands to disprove your prejudices, though.

Or do you want them to receive every individual ? When they speak out publicly it has more weight than if they talk to Charles alone . The edah charidi leaders have spoken out against those manifestations . What kind of leaders are they that their followers do not listen ? Or have they only spoken out against for the general public , not for their own people . You want to have a Jewish State . We prefer a State for Jews , all Jews , seculars included . You are on the defensive ? And we , the secular Jews ? We have to stay at home Shabbat and other days because of your beliefs .

See what this "moderate" Rabbi from Bat Yam says today . When Rabbanim speak out , it's generally against the seculars

It's barely even an institution in the first place, just a umbrella for several groups of people that live in the same place and share *some* opinions regarding life in their neighborhood. That doesn't even cover all the ultra-Orthodox people *living* in the neighborhood itself, or nearby. That's the thing, Charles. You expect Charedim to be blind obedient sheep, when they're not. They're people just like you, and when some hooligan chooses to vandalize public property in what was meant to be a peaceful protest, there's *nothing* that can be done. That's the thing about zealots - they think they know better than everyone else, including their own Rabbis. And said Rabbis aren't state leaders - they don't have a police force, they can't enforce their edicts unless their own public wants to listen. Some people have selective listening. Some never even listen to anyone other than themselves in the first place. The Eda HaCharedit has some pretty major flaws, both in terms of their insularity, open dislike of state institutions, and a kind of head-in-sand approach to violent youths who dropped out Yeshivas. But at the moment, you're demanding perfection and blind obedience from them - in short, you expect the entire neighborhood to fit the image of Charedim you have in your head. I'm sorry, the world doesn't quite work like that. People live there - people just like you. And everyone makes their own choices, including when to listen to authority (including religious authority) or not. As for what you want for the state, what you seem to want is not a state for all Jews as much as a state that has no definition at all. Many of us have come here, in part, to feel at home. And please, no one is keeping you locked in at home. You don't have many businesses working on Shabbat? Then you prefer the alternative, of people being told to work on Shabbat or lose their jobs, regardless of their beliefs or social concerns? It's already like that for any business that chooses to operate on Shabbat - the employees are told in no-uncertain terms that they either go against Jewish religious beliefs, should they have them, or be fired. And public transportation? As long as its state-regulated and even partially state-subsidized, then my taxes also fund it - and I refuse to let my taxes be used against a basic matter in my religious beliefs, as do a vast number of people in this country. Don't like it? Don't take my money. As I long as I live here and obey the laws, I have a say in how the country is defined. That may not always be to your liking, just like your re-defining is not always to my liking, but that's how it works. Your "State for All Jews" is not the state for me.

And even pathetic sensationalism at that - Rabbi Yaakov Rojza is a respected and kind man, and is part of the ZAKA rescue organization. He often talks about violence and schools and in the streets, and in the case of the article on Ynet - on matters of modesty, self-respect, and the shallowness of education and aspirations among the youth today. I don't see any bashing here - I see a man who sees something that bothers him, that he sees as a problem for society, and that then goes in and tries to help in his capacity. Ynet, unsurprisingly, focused the interview and the article that stemmed from it on trying to make the Rabbi look like a secular-basher, thus trying to create sensation and ridicule even from this kind man's beliefs and actions.

I too came here to be at HOME , but not in a prison were i can't move every day of the year . EVERY day . The Dan bus company has also religious drivers , they do not have to work on Shabbat . Dan buses begin their service at 17h20 , before Motsae Shabbat [ not on all the lines ] So working on Shabbat is not mandatory . Religious people will not look for a job that could oblige them to go against their beliefs . My taxes also fund the buses , why should'nt i have the same rights as you ? you don't want them . i want . You don't want to fund Shabbat transport , but i should have to fund the segregated lines . Is that not IMPOSING your ideas on me ? I don't want my money to fund the segregated buses , more as the normal lines are subsidised . Arad - Bene berak costs 25 sh with segregated , more than twice this price with normal buses , and you have to change , and wait , at the Kyriat Malachi Junction . Regarding "modest" clothes . Two of our ex-ministers went to jail yesterday . One always dressed in a black suit and hat , the second not at all . You see , no difference what they wear , it's the inside . But those charidim listen to their Rabbanim when it comes to vote for their charidi parties . Those Rabbanim talking against violence ? i did'nt hear nor see one mentioned here . Sensationalism ? But is'nt this what this Rabbi has said ? He can be a fine guy who talks against violence at schools [ not Charidi ones ] who is a Zaka volunteer [ it's a mitzwa ] But what he said is only trying to impose his views on us .

but when i ask them too , you remain silent . "Nice" .

He's a Conservative Jew emulating Protestant Christianity. I ignore him just as I ignore evangelicals. Also, no one is keeping you a prisoner in your house. You want to travel? Take a taxi. Buy a car. Hire a private bus if you want to move numerous people around. Yes, Dan has religious drivers. Dan is also a large company with extreme public exposure - if it starts firing people for not working on Shabbat it will be sued and partially boycotted within minutes. Not much of a concern for pretty most other business. As for segregated lines, the people who want them would completely agree with you that your taxes shouldn't fund them. They didn't even ask the public bus companies to set up such lines for them - they set up privately-owned buses for themselves. And were then sued by the public bus companies for setting up a bus company without government regulation, essentially over the fact that it cut into their business - the parallel lines already there. So those ultra-Orthodox who wanted such lines said "Okay, we close the private bus lines, but you provide this service for us." And that's what the bus companies now do. But your ridiculous claim that they're "more subsidied" is patently false. The state doesn't subsidy individual lines - it sets caps for the prices depending on the distance traveled, preventing overcharges, and compensates companies for loss of profit. Any company that wants to charge *less* for a line is free to do so - hence why Superbus is almost always cheaper than Egged, regardless of the fact that both operate under the exact same regulations. Those buses you mention? The Haredim traveling on them just managed to show the bus companies that they can profit more if they charge less, because *more people travel that way*. And Haredim use public transportation more often on average than the general public. In any case, *they* want those lines. You telling them "No" is *you* forcing your view on *them*, as long as they can't legally run alternative lines. There is no community life without compulsion from the community based on collective decisions one way or the other - it's up to all of us to try and live together and work things out to the best of our ability. As for our two corrupt MK's, Hirschson tended to dress quite respectably, so no comparison there. They both dressed in clothes that fit Jewish modesty codes, and both ignored other Jewish and legal codes. The outside may not always allow one to judge the person inside, but it transmits an image. Further, an obsession with that outside image, as it is among many in schools which allow the pupils to dress in any way they want, results in a shallow mindset which *does* focus overtly on outside appearance and image, in appearance competitions and clothing brands (even a t-shirt can be very expensive when it comes from a designer or known brand), and in a steady drain on the parents' funds. Many of my friends complain often on how endless the budget for the children's clothing is, with how they always want to get something better than what the other kids have... And that's a very bad way to think, that the most important thing in life is to *outwardly* look better than others. To look more impressive, or richer, or smarter. And that's precisely what Rabbi Yaakov Rojza is talking about.

And you know, he doesn't need to talk against violence in religious schools - that isn't where the police is starting to set up metal detectors to deter children carrying *knives* to school, is it? He cares, so he comes over and tries to help, and that's commendable. You say he's imposing his views on those who "aren't his own"? Then he must only care and be bothered with those who look like him? Because that's a very bigoted mindset. And I don't hear you being bothered with many seculars trying to force the state's standardized curriculum into the schools of the ultra-Orthodox. That is also a matter of "forcing your view on others" as part of trying to help them, though the arguments from seculars are too often much less about caring for others and more about helping *themselves* by removing the "Haredi Burden" from themselves. If we each stuck to our own, we'd each live in our own little cantonized ghettos. So you prefer Me'a She'arim across the country, Charles? And secular Me'a She'arims as well?