So you take one point out of several in order that I made, in order to diminish the effectiveness of the points made? Read again: his entire column was taken out of context, and attacks were made against Rickman over statements he never even made. Dude, grow up!

Yesh li isha yisraelit. Hee misaperet li al odot anashim camocha baaretz shechoshvim sheh-hem mumchim bakol. Aval ha emet hee, hem stam idiotim.

Tony (11) I see accusations of 'self hate' against Jews who ask for dialogue on many boards. I don't understand why this is happening - it is a strange concept with no evidence to support it. Dan asks only for dialogue, internally within the Jewish community and externally across ideological borders. We are talking of Human to Human here - even if we disagree or come from a dfferent starting place surely we can talk to each other? I saw nothing in Dan's article to suggest that he supports Arabs over [his] people in [his] homeland. Leni

Dan - first, this is a very difficult format for commenters ! would you equate 'theological dissonance' with 'cognitive dissonance'? The second is another accusation carelesly flung around - particuarly against those seen to step outside the current party line , theologically or politically. When there is dissonance between our own understanding/belief and the reality around us it can be very disturbing - do we question our belief or tte reality? When we undestand religion to be universalist yet live in a world which ranslates that belief, throug poltics, to an exclusionary reality we are again faced with dissonance. By accepting one we have to reject the other as we cannot be universalist and discriminatory/exclusionist at the same time. Religion - to be a living reality expressed through human kind - must surely be discussed, brought ito a modern context which faces the painful realities of the modern world if we are to address the conflict between those elements which divide us and the desperate need for reconciliation . The naive or self hating epithets thrown at many left wing Jews is an outcome of te confusion - and sometimes fear - which exists around Israel, her security and future . Any dissenter , anyone who question policies are tagged as traitor. I find the general move to the Right in politics very disturbing, people are taking refuge in literalist - and therefore tribal - interpretations of of their scriptures in all 3 Abrahamics. This is dividing us further - within our own communities and from each other. Keep up the good work - shine a light. Leni

This concept within the context of the Arab Israeli conflict can be detected when some Jews - I am not accusing Dan since I know nothing about him - resort to the obsessive spewing of verbal venom that amounts to de-legitimizing Israel, demonizing it and holding it to standard not expected of other countries. When this is done exclusively and relentlessly to this tiny country - one the size of Wales or Slovenia, with a Jewish population of only 5.5 million Jews and with no natural resources of which to speak but for its human resources - without any relationship to the degree of criticism warranted, one can't help but assume that self-hate is at work. And one additional element: When criticism is made of Israel by such people in a way that suggest that they don't really seek to improve matters - after all Israel is an open liberal democratic society with free press - but to elevate their own individual status in the eyes of the other, of non-Jews, the feeling that self-hate is at play becomes stronger.

B"H - Dan Rickman: "This led me to the view that Orthodox Judaism nowadays must have a universalist approach and we can and must develop an anti-racist view consistent with Jewish sources." - ABY: Do you do Havdalah each motze Shabbat? If you do, do you understand its meaning?

In terms of social welfare most Israeli religious Jews would fit in perfectly with the democrats or socialists, but we are not welcome to the club because only people willing to fully commit to the policies of the "extreme left" are considered social democrats. Accept that we will never agree to our own demise and start a dialogue.

God hating, yes. Authority/government hating, yes. Self hating, NO WAY.

As soon as people start engaging in this sort of language all legitimacy for their views is lost. Argue about the facts and the what conclusions should be reached by all means but avoid these stupid offensive insults.

Eitan thanks for your thoughtful comments. There are different narratives here. Some on the left try to see the world in very simplistic "black and white" terms and whilst this is regrettable the best way to oppose such views is to stay within these movements and encourage them to appreciate the realities. Demonising the left or all of Europe is also not very helpful. I think the key point is when you say that criticism should be to "improve matters" and of course the "left" and the "right" will have different views as to what this means. Fwiw, I don't respect Jews who criticise Israel from embarrassment (not self-hate) however I also don't respect Jews who take an "Israel right or wrong" approach. I'd suggest we need a more mature approach. If when I talk to and read analyses by people on the left in Israel and agree with them can I not say so? Shira, I really don't think Neturei Karta are that socially progressive re women's rights for example! Raymond - what I find disturbing was Melanie Phillips apparent rejection of enlightenment values. I think your comments are far to sweeping re universalism etc - and this relates to Ariel as well, yes I am familiar with havdala and indeed Bereishit chapter 1 when havdala is mentioned 5 times. I'd suggest that the message is that we need to recognise both our common humanity and our distinctiveness and respect both. I acknowledge 100% that if someone denies my rights then this doesn't work from their perspective, however this is an ideal which I'd suggest that Judaism is suggesting we need to work towards where we can and this is in line with and can help with understanding universalist approaches in wider society. 32 - if you drink whisky then I am sure we could settle even these differences Leni thanks for the wise words and agree that literalist approaches are worrying and to be avoided, in effect a form of "fundamentalism" and a potential basis for extreme policies, e.g. taking literally the rabbinic midrash that Esau (which actually referred to Rome) hates Jacob (aka Israel)

I am not sure the author is aware that Adhud ha-'Avodah, a very left-wing political party that was at the time part of Mapam that evolved into Meretz and part of the Labour Party, and consisting of the people who established some of the largest and most successful socialist/collective farming communities, Qibbutzim, has been in the forefront of populating the whole of Eretz Israel with Jews. Are the members of Ahdut ha-'Avodah, Dan, not part of the left?

Rickman has failed to describe what he considers "left", and has opted not to place his conception of "the left" within the a particular geographic region and time period. If and when Rickman does the above there will possibly be a basis to carry out a discussion with him. Presently, the "left" about which he writes is too vague and certainly not relevant to the reality in our country and the national home of the Jewish people: Israel. One poster made reference to Ahdut Haavoda, a labor Zionist party that historically has been both Socialist and nationalist in that it has promoted and implemented the settling of the whole of Eretz Yisrael. Another "left" is the National Religious Kibbutz Movement - Hakibbutz Hadati, consisting of orthodox Jews who have opted to settle the whole of Eretz Yisral while leading a socialist and an orthodox way of life. Both examples are removed from Rickman's UK Jewish reality and therefore he probably can't even relate to this reality and therefore it is nearly impossible to discuss the subject with him unless he clearly state what he means by "left".

1. Leftists align themselves with the same rhetoric and action plans as those who kill us... i.e. Hamas, Islamic Jihad, etc. See Not in Our Name, or Jewish Coalition for Peace in Palestine for details. 2. Leftists typically back politicians and celebrity figures who espouse views opposed to Israel's safety and security. See Roseanne, Danny Glover, Oliver Stone and Obama.. too many to list here. 3. Leftists typically bend over backwards to 'understand' the plight of our enemies, to the detriment of our own people. Raising money for Palestinian refugees, inviting Fatah Hawks to speak at modern Orthodox shuls, while terror victims languish in pain. There is more, but consider this an introduction to why your views are foolish, wrong, and dangerous to the survival of Jews everywhere

Rabbis for Human Rights. One would think this organization indeed stands for human rights for all, and as "Rabbis" they should be concerned about the human rights of Jews too. Not so!!! This organization is based in Jerusalem, a city where many buses, coffee shops, educational institutions and shopping centers have been blown up during the early years of this decades. Hundreds of Jews were murdered and thousands of Jerusalem Jewish population are still injured both physically and mentally. Yet, Rabbis for Human Rights was nowhere to be seen in protest, in the defence of the life of Jews - and note, one's right to live is the very first of all of human rights. But this organization has been actively involved in the defence of Arabs in Samaria and Judea. It objected to Israel's defensive action in Gaza. Indeed, I don't know of a single cause in the defence of Arabs that Rabbis for Human Rights was not there. But Jews' human rights was not to be dealt with by these "leftist" Rabbis.

That nutjob was a compulsive liar and a hero to other narcissistic freaks, like Edward Said.

ask is just the example that has bothered me for years. Thank you for raising it.

B"H Two of the qualities of the Erev Rav: 1. Working towards bringing Esau and Yishmael together 2. Forsaking the Land. If the shoe fits.... EsserAgaroth.blogspot.com

Nice article Dan, I don't understand the unexplainable and pretty fierce comments seen hereabouts though. It's as if some people will not accept that being left-wing (or liberal) and Jewish is anything less than heresy. Hi Leni, Good to see you (and your comments) here. Cheers, Martyn

I beg to differ - with all due respect - to Dan an old and still current freind from schooldays. We both attended a moderate religious school - not in any way ultra orthodox - with many graduates attending top UK universities, and many - including myself having diehard communists in the family. It seems that Dan is begging the lights by trying to be controversial. To address the points he raised - the quote of the justice justice in Judaism is understood as the need to always accquit when possible in the defendants favour. to temper justice with practical mercy and not to be misused to enhance a relentless pursuit for justice. It is precisely this point as viewed by the left which conflicts with the view of mainstream judaism. The Jewish left in its pursuit of absolute justice for all does not temporise its views with the humanistic needs of the its own people. hence they are percieved by the mainstream as being self hating and begging for acceptance by society in general, and their views are delegitimised. The Jewish left has always been marginal, even in the days of the avant of the Jewish Bund or communism, and by its very character of its political philosophy it denies the basis of pracitcal Judaism. It has always disappeared only to reinvent itself with the next trend. the curent trend being unbalanced, unfair, unjust and extereme one sided criticism of Israel. All would do well to remember to remember not to throw stones in, or poison the well from which they drink.

belated responses! 44 - I deliberately avoided defining this given the length of the article would be happy to try to expand at some stage 47 - please read the entire article on Shahak which I linked to in the main article to see why I say this - having read some modern teshuvot (which are even there on the internet but which I won't link to!) I have shifted my ground on this for reasons I outlined there 51 hi Maurice - I discussed this with various friends and they thought it was ultra-orthodox as well! We had quite a mix ranging from secular Israeli families to Pardes House. One defining issue - Hatikvah was banned as the school moved to the right religiously (and away from its "Torah im derekh eretz" roots). I think your concept of the left looking for "absolute justice" is mistaken - the key issue here is one of perceiving that justice has to be balanced in what is an increasingly complex situation. We need to recognise the humanity of the "other" within this. The Bund was pretty influential in its day. Most importantly I don't see any logical reason why orthodox Jew means right wing or indeed left wing. I would have thought from first principles that orthodox Jews would be more inclined to moderate left wing policies than right wing ones for reasons I outlined or at least that there would be a half and half split. The identification of religion with right wing politics is worrying and dangerous in my view, all I am trying to do is add some balance! BW Dan

which once again he refuses to explain what he means by the concept of "left" when he describes himself. Our practical application of "leftist" way of life (socialism or semi-socialism after much of the hafratot) would probably appeal to Rickman in theory, and most likely only in theory. But how would he be able to reconcile it with the fact that we are also Zionists who feel strongly that it is for us, Jews, to settle our entire G-d given country? I suspect he couldn't and therefore would consider us as "non-leftists". Conclusion: He better make some more thinking and perhaps even soul searching before appearing in public with the need to be controversial but without any ground on which to stand, at least as he theories relate to practical life in Eretz Israel and the call to settle the land.