but all agree with the traditional Christian storyline, which is proven fiction. Christiasnity hates Judaism, Islam hates Judaism both textually, philisophically and in practice but Rabbis are in the forefront to protect these same religions when faiths are called an irrationality and illogical nemesis to human progress and peace. What gives?

It sounds like you're not any fonder of Christianity and Islam as you suspect them t o be of Judaism. Maybe if we all forgot about religions, recognized that we're all created in the image of the same God and saw each other in terms of common decency and respect for our fellow human beings, there would, indeed, be peace and progress.

Barukh ha-Sheim, there are exceptions, of course. However, I think far too many depend upon "my grandiose authority as an awesomely clever skirter of inconvenient law" instead of the simple objective application of mathematically precise logic to documented facts. No glory in that because the emphasis is shifted away from any "grandiose religious celebrity" to the impersonal application of logic and citing of documented facts instead of citing "monumental" Sages who were no less fallible than you or me--and would have been the first to say so. In (correctly) pointing out the fictional nature of Christianity and "Rabbis are in the forefront to protect these same religions," you have put your finger on a key failure of the rabbis. When the rabbis equate the historical 1st-century, Torah-teaching, Pharisee Ribi to (le-havdil) the fictional Roman-redacted Hellenist image (Jzeus) they corroborate and confirm the core Christian premise. In other words, rabbis (or other Jews) who corroborate this core--but false--Christian premise are preaching the Gospel, themselves doing the "evangelizing" they (often wrongly) charge Christians with doing!!! Paqid Yirmeyahu Paqid 16, The Netzarim, Ra'anana, Israel Israeli Torah-reverer (& Orthodox Jew) Advocate for Logic as Halakhic Authority Welcoming All Torah-reverers (Jewish & Goyim) www.netzarim.co.il

Those who proclaim: Long Live our Master our Teacher and our Rebbe King Moshiach Forever and Ever! Are phoneys! Those who believe in such proclamation, but conceal their belief are phoneys. Those who are obsessed with their rebbe at the expense of the torah and the love of Hd, are phoneys.

Judiasm. But most Christians don't understand it either.Just like most Jews don't understand Christianity. Yet we both hold a solid and strong allegiance to Hashem. Jews and Christians both need to understand that the Torah was written to 3 groups of peoples. The Jews,Christians, and the Nations otherwise know as goyim. Once each group begins to see and understand that this is so, each group can and should get along with each other in respect and worship. Jews will always and forever be called on to perform mikvahs and obey the over 635 laws we have in Torah. Christians will always be called upon to walk in the faith and love of an unseen God and obey his commands to them as well. And the nations, they will be called upon and rewarded(or not), on how the treated the nation of Israel and it's people. Whether good, or bad. Unfortunately, we never read & understand Torah like we should. Hence we will always be weary of each others intentions toward us and toward our G-d given land.

It is VERY distasteful to place the kabbalah center in the same pot as the rest. They are far more honorable than those who have disdain for nought..Rabbi Brackman, in Hebrew it is called Sinat Chinam. That is asur, isn't it?

Your article could not be more accurate in terms of it allusion to the dysfunctional relationship between Miscavige and Cruise. See for example, http://markrathbun.wordpress.com/2009/08/26/top-gun-and-hired-gun-put-on-notice/

that question its legitimacy and 450 anti semitic scenes in only 250 pages, yet Rabbis accept its basic history. That is a travesty of great intellectual proportions so grave to question Rabbinical legitimacy itself. It's as if Rabbis never heard of the 250 years of scholarship that has produced hundreds of books on the such subjects as the New Testament's use of the Old Testament through the Septuagint and intertestamental Jewish literature, Josephus and Greek and Roman literature, the synoptic problem, the thousands of errors in transmission, the many early versions of Christianity so called heresies with scores of other gospels, the archeological finds and its implications at Nag Hammadi, Qumran, Ugaritic and Champollion' decifering of Egyptian heiroglyphs and the lack of any settlement at Nazareth and Bethlehem and so many many others.

frier, it is about applying one's own mind critically, rationally and studying and learning. Religions are phony nonsense and none more so than Christianity from so many different angles with literally thousands of supporting points. Just one for instance Nazareth never existed as settlement ever.

of course he likes what #1 says, seeing how his deviant beliefs he calls "orthodox judaism" (notice, it's orthodox only to him, which is NOT orthodox in any definition of the word) he seeks to somehow become normative will be seen as no big deal. maybe he could show us some credible rabbis who actually know what he believes and teaches and ENDORSES it. but we've been asking that for quite some time now, and it is expected that the response will be 1) ad hominem attacks and/or 2) change the subject and/or 3) silence. go ahead and hide you convert status, not to mention your deviant beliefs, in your credibility self-proving "signature block" and disguise yourself with smart-sounding blather talk. or just answer the long-standing question. that would be nice.

Next to your article on the front page is a picture of Obama and his last pastor, with the heading, "Identifying a Phony". Talk about taking a position! (Ynet represents Israel internationally, at least that's what they see). I am embarrassed by this sensationalist representation.

as i have demonstrated with paqid's circular (loopy) logic that treats christianity with historical deconstructionist tools, yet hypocritically treats the mosaic story and the rabbis' later reinterpretations with holy kid gloves, you gotta be consistent. you can't say jesus didn't exist as described without also undermining your argument for the veracity of the jewish historical account (not including later rabbinic inventions). sorry, it's intellectually dishonest, inconsistent, and wrong. and wishful thinking.

but I can state categorically--as one who was raised Christian in the American Bible Belt, went to Hampden DuBose Academy (the tiny elite Christian boarding school Billy Graham sent his daughter) and became a Baptist preacher before discovering the contradictions in Christianity--you do not understand the unavoidable conflict intrinsic to Christianity or Christians (even if you may be a "Messianic"). EVERY variety of Christianity is ultimately dependent upon supersession and displacement theology for its own validity. That means that EITHER Christianity is valid EXCLUSIVELY-OR Judaism is valid. Few Christians have ever considered this conundrum, which is the only reason (ignorance) it isn't an everyday problem. But it's always just a matter of time before a pogrom or Crusades or Inquisition or Hitler comes along who recognizes that and leverages yet another attempt to eliminate--invalidate by superseding and displacing--the original (Judaism and Jews) in order to confirm Christianity's validity (supersession and displacement of Judaism and Jews; "Old Testament" by "New Testament"). From Avraham Avinu, Biblical Israel has always maintained that ha-Sheim is a Singularity; having no peers. By that definition, Christians who worship their man-god, Jzeus, reject ha-Sheim for idolatry. They redefine their own forged version of "One God" (with Three instantiations) and call their forgery ha-Sheim--in the identical tradition that they forged a Torah-teaching Ribi into a Roman-redacted Hellenist man-god and have begun calling the phony by a Hebrew name. Excrement by any other name would smell as bad. The Torah principle of Havdalah ensures that these can never mix. Either Jews must convert to idolatry or... Christians, whose entire life revolves around, and will NEVER abandon, the 1st-century Yehoshua, must be educated to the only kind of historically-accurate Ribi that could have emerged and gained popularity among the Perushim (corrupted to "Pharisees") described in Dead Sea Scroll 4Q MMT: an anti-Hellenist, anti-Roman occupier, Torah-teacher! That didn't change until Hellenist Roman redactions that began only subsequent to 135 C.E. As soon as Christians are faced with this unavoidable conflict, unbridled hatred always ensues. They DO hate Judaism and Torah. They just aren't often confronted with the historical facts and most NEVER have to deal with it so most never become aware of the intrinsic hatred within. For 2,000 years people have been trying to gloss it over and make nice-nice. 2,000 years of failure should teach you something. The only solution is education to the unvarnished history and welcome goyim--including Christians who are beginning to see the Light of Torah (including many "Messianics" who are not Jews for Jzeus) and are beginning to study, love and practice Torah. To do that, we'll also have to condemn the racist hate-mongers among us and ignore the Christians who hate "Judaizers" and try to discredit us (e.g., Mike the self-professed Christian married to a Palistani with the expected agenda always trying butt his Christian presumptuousness into Judaic affairs). This is the only way to succeed. Don't continue to replay the 2,000 year-old failure movie over and over. We know how it turns out. Make no mistake; however inadvertently, like Carter, Pelosi & Obama's cheerleader Hartley (pushing the Medusa of postmodernist relativism--see my article on the insidious side of "Roots of Obama's Social Revolution" in our website Web Cafe), you're advocating assimilation no less than Bilam. Paqid Yirmeyahu Paqid 16, The Netzarim, Ra'anana, Israel Israeli Torah-reverer (& Orthodox Jew) Advocate for Logic as Halakhic Authority Welcoming All Torah-reverers (Jewish & Goyim) www.netzarim.co.il

Typical pot calling the kettle black. Without a blessing there will be no fruit in being spiritual. G-d, not 7 father ghosts gives us ou blessings on Sukkot. Zohar and Kabbalh is magic, is it not? Asur.

Bald-faced naked assertions and opinions "demonstrate" nothing!

speaking of presumptuousness and racist hate-mongers, i read online what baptists profess to believe and it seems you are again lying that you know what they believe, much less ever qualified as you claim. you may have been some ignoramus who stood in the pulpit, but a "preacher" or "minister" that does not one make. so, another unverified claim you make. they keep adding up.

still "Orthodox". Let us all remember the famous saying of Rabbi Akiva, when the heathen asked him (to annoy) to teach him the whole Torah while he stood on one foot. "Do not do to others what is hateful to you" This I think sums up the reasons not to send long talkbacks trashing other religious beliefs. In Israel we are free to think how we want to. If for instance, you think Scientology is a massive confidence trick, its not your business to write against it. Madonna's take on Kabalah clearly gives her some spiritual support, but she is not forcing anyone else to follow her lead.

It was Hillel who said not Akiva...

ORWELLIAN!! Are you a member of the thought police? People can say whatever they want, think whatever they, Israel is a free country, America is a free country but you yourself are neither free or educated in anything but the new totalitarianism "Political Correctness" Now in the year 2009 people have to accept utter nonsense as truth, you should be ashamed to live in a free country.

Mike, I don't believe in the literal truth of either testament, but it does not follow that if you discount the truth of the Jesus story, you also undermine the Patriarchs-Moses tales. I don't think it is logically inconsistent to believe Moses and disbelieve Jesus, but it would be inconsistent to believe Jesus and not Moses.

Your definition of a rabbi would disqualify over 95% of the orthodox rabbis including many so called "gedolim" who act inappropriately or not all.

you can prove of disprove what you like, but be consistent. don't say that jesus didn't exist because the record was forged or made up, then claim the accounts written moses or other biblical writers are legitimate. this is what #13 does on a regular basis under the guise of "logic". if certain scrutiny is used, use it for all.

spiritual leaders, my own experience is that the very best teachers and elders are characterized by extreme humility and do not want to "own" anybody and their greatest successes are when their "pupils" walk away and establish their own identity and no longer need them.

A basic belief in the US is that people who believe in their religion (or anything else in life) are going to be able to defend their ideas and debate them back and forth (without hopefully losing control). They also have to be willing to risk some amount of rejection within reason (although nothing considered abusive or physically violent). This is kind of the price paid for having the luxury of religion. With Madonna and Tom Cruise they seem to be able to handle it Ok.

"It is very personal and it is often difficult for the layperson to discern between an authentic spiritual guide and a fake." In actuality it is quite simple for the logic minded person. Ribi Yehoshua amar, "Beware of false neviim who come to you in wool like sheep, but inside they are wolves who extort. YOU SHALL RECOGNIZE THEM BY THEIR MAASEH. (emphasis mine), from The Netzarim Reconstruction of Hebrew Mattiyahu, Vol 1, pg NHM I. 7-2

I hope I can occasionally marshal my past experience and my research findings from my own journey to help Jews better understand, and help, Christians and to help Christians better understand both the intrinsic intractable conundrums of supersession and displacement theology, Hellenist redactions by Roman occupiers, etc. in contrast to (le-havdil) the veracity and Truth of the original -- Torah. This is of even greater importance since Islam is nothing more than Christianity 2.0 Lite (eliminating divine man-god). All of the same reasoning about supersession and displacement theology applies. Two goliaths with one stone. That's a new record. Paqid Yirmeyahu Paqid 16, The Netzarim, Ra'anana, Israel Israeli Torah-reverer (& Orthodox Jew) Advocate for Logic as Halakhic Authority Welcoming All Torah-reverers (Jewish & Goyim) www.netzarim.co.il

From Avraham to Ribi Yehoshua (see, inter alia, Prof. Elisha Qimron's authoritative book on Dead Sea Scroll 4Q MMT) to Talmud to today, the Judaic record of Torah is consistent, both internally and with the earliest documentation. Subsequent to 135 C.E., Xy, by contrast, was born as a wild left turn away from Torah called "antinomianism" (misojudaism; whether by Paul or earlier by Stephen); supersessionary doctrine and displacement theology turning to Hellenist idolatry that all contradicts--is inconsistent with--everything in the first paragraph. Now I doubt you've even yet bothered to look up the logical fallacy of ad ignorantiam; which means you probably still don't recognize that it means you have improperly--contrary to the rules of mathematical logic (which you call "loopy")-tried to shift the burden of proof. Paragraph one, above, is a matter of record not in serious dispute; particularly before the Christian era, even most Christians don't dispute it. (Atheists arguments, which aren't accepted by either disputant here, aren't relevant to this discussion of Torah versus, le-havdil, Xy.) Logically, that necessitates that the burden of proof will never be to prove that the original state, Torah (Judaism), is consistent. That was the original known state before Christianity came along with its claims of supersession and displacement theology. Logic requires that the claims of divergence from the original known state, NOT the original known state itself, bears the burden of proof. It is Christianity that must prove its validity, NOT Torah. An example: Person A: The sun will set today. Person B: No, it won't. You can't prove the sun will set today. Person A: Well, no; I can't prove it because no one knows the future. But that's the way it's happened since humans have inhabited the earth. Person B: See, you can't prove it because you're wrong. Now THAT's loopy! The burden of proof is always on the one who claims a departure from the original state; in the example, person B--exclusively. Supersession and displacement theology is the ultimate inconsistency. The burden of proof is exclusively on Christianity (and Islam) to prove their validity--from the original known state, which is Torah. Christianity or Islam attempting to prove themselves from Torah is highly entertaining (and ignorant). So it is entirely consistent and logical that the Roman-redacted, Hellenist, divine man-god Jzeus is invalid until proven otherwise-- and I can and regularly do shoot down in flames every attempt to prove Xy claims. Logically, Xy and Jzeus remain invalid and false. The historical record supports the existence of the 1st-century, Pharisee Ribi (therefore, Torah-teaching, not Hellenist Xn) Yehoshua. The historical record further demonstrates that the exclusively Roman-redacted, Hellenist rewrite is the inconsistency--the forgery and counterfeit; cloaking Yehoshua in a mantle of excrement (Zekh. 3.3--the contemporary Kohein Gadol never stood in the heavenly Beit Din before the Malakh ha-Sheim and Satan, verse 1). This is the time of Zekh. 3.4-5. Paqid Yirmeyahu Paqid 16, The Netzarim, Ra'anana, Israel Israeli Torah-reverer (& Orthodox Jew) Advocate for Logic as Halakhic Authority Welcoming All Torah-reverers (Jewish & Goyim) www.netzarim.co.il

see my #10 above. and you've proven nothing without also undermining your own position, champ.