I agree that you're absolutely right that a leader produces students that are independent and stand on their own two feet, not tied by an umbilical to the teacher--which is the mark of a cult. IMO, there's no better test of a leader than to do the opposite of a cult: teach talmidim to become Torah knowledgeable to live Torah standing on their own two feet without help or umbilical to a teacher, guru--or psychologist. Excellent point! I've never been able to figure out, though, how a revolutionary--advocating unconventional ideas and thinking outside of the box--can manage to stand up against being assailed, misrepresented (straw man) and slandered from all directions and, while standing up against assailants from all sides, still pull off exuding humility. How does stand up to attackers from all sides, defend unpopular truths against all sides and still convey humility? I've never been able to figure that out. I'm fallible and when I recognize I've made a mistake I immediately do my best to right the mistake. That, however, is demonstrably not perceived as humility. Am I in error or is the general perception of humility out of kilter? Paqid Yirmeyahu Paqid 16, The Netzarim, Ra'anana, Israel Israeli Torah-reverer (& Orthodox Jew) Advocate for Logic as Halakhic Authority Welcoming All Torah-reverers (Jewish & Goyim) www.netzarim.co.il

Humility does not mean not standing up for yourself. It does not mean "turning the other cheek" as Christians would put it. Humility has nothing to do with passive acceptance of a bad situation. It has everything to do with attitude: For starters, it means, according to my understanding, that you recognize how little you actually know and what you do know, limited as that may be, is what you've had to suffer for. It also means that you are not in control of other peoples' lives, thoughts, actions and paths by which they lead their lives and that, at best, you are only in control of your own and even this to a limited extent only. It is an understanding that, while you must act in accordance with your own perceptions and beliefs, there is also a recognition of your own fallibility and of your limited self-knowledge. And finally, depending upon whether you believe in a Creator, angels or spirits, that there are beings with vastly greater power and knowledge than your own and in whose eyes you are a lovable, sometimes precocious and often a precious child or even grandchild. I think with these recognitions you reach a certain deep level of humility. In my experience, you normally have to age in order to acquire this characteristic if you are to acquire it all. I hope this explanation is of some little assistance to you. I certainly do not possess the last word on the subject and am open to critiques, challenges, opposing points of view, supporting views and discussions. I am grateful that you thought to ask my opinion. Regards.