Opinion
Another success story
Ronen Bergman
Published: 05.11.09, 17:49
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1. Comment
Mohammad ,   Jordan   (11.05.09)
"Will the world indeed unite against terror alongside Israel" Once again, its the idea of uniting against an external enemy. I think this explains why Israel fears peace more than war. Maybe Israelis fear of peace is driven by their knowledge that the war against Arab is the glue that unifies the Jews? maybe they know that the biggest threat to Israel future is internal, not external? without an external enemy, will the Sephardic, the Ethiopian,the Russian immigrants, and the Israeli arab revolt against the state because of the discrimination and racism they face? has war became a necessity for Israel's survival?
2. To: No. 1
Sarah B ,   New York / Saviyon   (11.05.09)
Israelis do not "fear" peace, as you suggest. There are some thirty-odd organizations each purporting to be the sole true representatives of the Palestinian people. The common thread among these organizations is that each of their charters calls for the destruction of the State of Israel and the extermination and/or expulsion of the Jewish people. Each of these organizations have consistently refused to repudiate their charters. Some of these organizations are composed of hardliners who do not even pretend to want peace; they want to see Israel eradicated, and say so openly and frequently. But many of these organizations profess to want peace, so I cannot understand why they do not repudiate their charters and openly acknowledge the right of the State of Israel to exist in its ancient homeland. See the problem? Coming from a repressive state such as Jordan, you probably just don't recognize healthy debate. Do not confuse Israel's vigor and open and frank discussions of social issues with "internal" dissension. Of course there are social inequities. Can you name one country that doesn't have such inequities? You see it in societies that -- unlike Israel -- are completely uniform in ethnicity, or race, or religion; Israel's society is quite diverse, not discordant. Israel would like nothing more than to live in peace and harmony with its neighbors. Unfortunately, the neighbors have made this impossible. Six wars -- all initiated by Arabs -- and sixty-one years of unrelenting Palestinian terror is proof enough of that. Your last question, therefore, is absurd on its face. I am certain that you intended it to be a grand philosophical statement, but in light of the fact that Israel has not started any of the six wars it has fought, your question is merely moronic beyond belief.
3. Since there is no independent source for...
Persian CAT   (11.05.09)
this "news" other than the Israeli officials, who are well known for lying and spreading gossips in order to divert attention from their own shortcomings and the war crimes accusations leveled at them by the whole world, I declare this item to be just another piece of propaganda. The author may consider this as a "victory", but the fact is Israel's action is another gross acts of piracy in the international waters which adds to Israel's problems instead of solving anything. Iran does not have to "smuggle" arms to its allies. Israel should watch out for what is coming for its own dangerous games in Georgia.
4. To #2
Mohammad ,   Jordan   (11.05.09)
Dear Sarah, Do you know whats the first thing jumps into my head when i read your talkbacks? A robot. lol "Coming from a repressive state such as Jordan, you probably just don't recognize healthy debate" How do you know i am from Jordan? lol, and how its related to the topic? " Unfortunately, the neighbors have made this impossible. Six wars -- all initiated by Arabs" " am certain that you intended it to be a grand philosophical statement, but in light of the fact that Israel has not started any of the six wars it has fought" Why you repeated the six war thing twice?lol, Do you still feel guilty since yesterday after uncle Gee blamed you for the terrible mistake you did?lol, maybe your guilt is beyond yesterday, maybe it goes back to your childhood as Frued suggested! Do you know what i just realized today? by saying that you are a merely a sheep in the herd yesterday i was insulting the sheeps.lol Have not you noticed that i ignored you yesterday after you posted your genuis reply? Why do you keep on repeating the same mistake? Dont you know that "no answer" is an answer in itself? Do you think i have time for people with an IQ of a banana? Now, you go and have a drink, i like your name though.
5. #3 - Person SHAT (again)....
Andy ,   ramat hasharon   (11.05.09)
You amaze me. One day, when your country is in ruins for its suicidal actions, perhaps you will see what assholes you are.
6. An interesting thesis, Mohammed (#1),
Robert Haymond ,   Ashdod, Israel   (11.05.09)
and one which I'd like to ponder on. In reality, however, during Israel's sixty-one years as a state and for decades before that, there has never been anything but a state of siege for the Jews in Eretz Yisrael. What you say is worth consideration but, more to the point, we really have no way to test out your proposition because we've never been able to establish a peaceful situation with mideast Arabs except in the case of your country, Jordan, and also Egypt, and these treaties were made only after the aftermath of wars in which we were victorious. To respond to your question, however, I think that were we to experience genuine peace with our neighbours, even a cold peace such as we have with Egypt, we would be in a much better position to deal with our own, internal, society. A constant state of siege plus a constant flux of new immigrants, to a large extent unfamiliar with the mideast, makes for a very stressed out and excitable population. Were we to experience just even one generation of relative peace, just as you've experienced in your country under the benign leadership of your queen, I think you'd find that internal relationships between differing groups and peoples within Israel would improve immeasurably. I am respectfully awaiting your thoughtful respose.
7. To: No. 3
Sarah B ,   New York / Saviyon   (11.05.09)
How about the vessel's crew, who were there? Is that independent enough a source for you? I am also puzzled by the fact that on the one hand, you reject the news report as "propaganda" and a scant ten or so words later, you are accusing Israel of an act of "piracy," thereby explicitly acknowledging that Israel did in fact interdict a vessel carrying arms. You can't have it both ways. So, which is it? Make up your mind. Hizbollah and Hamas are terrorist organizations (not countries, therefore not "allies") and are officially viewed as such by the United States, the European Union and quite a few other countries. International convention prohibits transfer of weapons to terrorist organizations. This is certainly not the first time Iran has been caught attempting to smuggle weapons to terrorist organizations just in the last several months -- the United States interdicted such a shipment not too long ago, Cyprus interdicted such a shipment several weeks before that and Israel destroyed a caravan in the Sudan that was attempting to illegally smuggle weapons from Iran to Hamas. I declare you to be terminally stupid. If all Iranians share your intellect, I can readily understand why Iran is about to go the way of the woolly mammoth. Still, it's fun to watch you scramble and contradict yourself. Thanks for the entertainment, kitty kat.
8. retarded and ignorant comment by Mo, Jordan
jerome ,   Basalt, Colorado   (11.05.09)
Fact : majority of Israeli's and Jews outside of Israel do want peace. Fact: Arabs have started all the wars against Israel. Fact: The Palestinians have been offered a state of their own 8 times and have turned it down. Fact: Palestinians want a state not along side Israel but in place of Israel. Mo's comment comes from fabrication of his own hallucinating mind.
9. That's a bit rich, #1,considering that for
Gary ,   Staten Island USA   (11.05.09)
decades Arab and Muslim dictators have diverted the anger of their people by using Israel as a scapegoat or a distraction. The real question is whether or not a perpetual state of conflict with Israel is necessary for many regimes, such as Iran's, to stay afloat. Sephardim, Ethiopians, Russians, and Israeli Arabs face problems for sure, but their situations in general are far better than they were before they came (or became citizens). The first three have never even thought of revolting. They use legislative means to get their needs met. Unfortunately,in most Muslim countries,including Jordan, the discriminated against do not have this option.
10. to say another, there must be a first
observer   (11.05.09)
11. To #6 Robert
Mohammad ,   Jordan   (11.05.09)
Thank you for your decent talkback and for taking the time to reply. I cannot help but notice that the Jewish people have an exceptional history, a hard one. Israel was conquered by the Assyrians, Babylonian, Persians, Roman, Byzantine, Arab , Mamluks, Ottoman and the english. What i am trying to say is that the Jews through their history have not been tested to rule themselves for extensive period of time without having an external problem. I should admit that this hardship made the Jews very successful on the individual level hence Humanity owes a great debt to Jewish scientists and intellectuals. However, Nowadays, Israel is facing very serious internal challenges and it looks a little bit fragile (internally) for an outsider. As you said, Israel has to experience genuine peace with her neighbours before we know, but i feel that Israelis will be wise and able to solve all their internal problems peacefully.
12. #1 - good insight, but about wrong party
david ,   new york   (11.05.09)
"uniting agqainst an external enemy". and "being afraid of peace" isn't that what jihad is all about? didn't mohammed create jihad so that he could control all the various tribes: "if they fight other people, they won't fight each other and won't fight me"
13. Who did create the Hezbollah in Lebanon?
e.m.Jordan is Palest ,   sf   (11.05.09)
Are you going to deny that the Hezbollah is the party of great Ayat Allah oll ozma all Khomeini, Who is supporting that Hezbollah terrorists branch in Lebanon and who is adding them? Who since their establishment have provided them all kind of weapons? and who is assistances those terrorisms organization and where their roots have come from, what kind of independence source do you need, it is obvious to entire world that the Hezbollah in Lebanon is the Iranian branch terrorisms organization and there no need to Israeli to forged it, Take your head out of sand and try to learn your true history the history of that great Persian Empire, Free Iran from religion of hate and murderess.
14. to mohammad let's talk about sheep !
dovdevan ,   ashdod,israel   (11.05.09)
the arab leaders in the 22 arabs state consider you all as the biggest sheep on earth they tell to come to a rally you come they tell you that israel is responsible of the economic problem of your countries you believe it ! all the dictators in your countries live like kings and they let their cityzen dying like dogs and its an insult to the dogs !
15. #2 Arabs started only one war to redeem their own land
observer   (11.05.09)
Arabs started only one war, in 1973. The Jews won only one war, in 1967, because they perfidiously attacked without declaring the war.
16. In true Arab fashion, after Mo from Jordan's
Allan ,   Ft. Lauderdale   (11.05.09)
comment was torn to shreds by Sarah B (nicley done, Sarah) he reverts to attacking her personally. What's the matter Mo? Your Arab ego is so fragile that it can't take being outsmarted by a woman? You have no argument to make and your talkbacks show your complete ignorance and distortion of the facts. Go back to tending your goats.
17. observer is not observing the truth
jerome ,   Basalt, Colorado   (11.05.09)
Arabs started all the wars with Israel in the real, true world. In the non-observer world of fantasy read post #15 . Observer, Mickey, Minne and Fafur mice are not real mice either.
18. To Mohammad
e.m.Jordan is Palest ,   sf   (11.05.09)
The Jews since 2500 years ago did not fight against each others and yes it is true that there is some internal problem of mix culture but that problem has been temporary and in the final day most of the problems have been solved, Jews will never rise against the Jews and you better be worry for the conflicts between the Islamic nations and inside of Muslim nations.
19. To: No. 15
Sarah B ,   New York / Saviyon   (11.05.09)
1 - Five Arab armies attacked Israel on May 15, 1948, one day following Israel's declaration of statehood. 2 - In September 1955, in violation of international agreements and in what amounted to an act of war, Egypt sealed off access to the Israeli port of Eilat, effectively stopping Israel's sea trade with much of Africa and the Far East. Then, on July 26, 1956 Nasser announced Egypt’s nationalization of the Suez Canal, most of whose shares were held by Britain and France. With diplomacy failing to reverse Nassers’s decision, Britain and France embarked on preparations to regain control of the Canal, and on October 29, 1956 together with Israel, launched a military operation in the Sinai Peninsula. Four and a half months later, on March 16, 1957, Israel withdrew her troops from the Sinai and Gaza strip after receiving international reassurances that Israel's vital waterways would remain open. Three thousand three hundred United Nations troops replaced them. Despite Israel's withdrawal, the Egyptians refused to open the Suez canal to Israeli shipping. 3 - In late May 1967, Nasser ordered the United Nations to remove its forces from Sinai, and Secretary General U Thant instantly complied. Egypt immediately deployed approximately 1,000 tanks and nearly 100,000 soldiers along its border with Israel. Nasser also closed the Straits of Tiran to Israeli shipping which, as in 1956, amounted to a declaration of war. On June 5th, Israel retaliated against Egypt. On June 7, 1967, Syria commenced heavy shelling of Israeli civilian areas in the North, and Jordan attacked Israel from the east. The rest, as they say, is history. 4 - The War of Attrition was a limited war fought between Israel and Egypt from 1967 to 1970. It was initiated by Egypt as a way to force Israel to negotiate on favourable terms the return of the Sinai Peninsula, which had been captured by Israel in the 1967 Six-Day War. . 5 - 1973 is the one instance in which you acknowledge that the Arabs were indeed the aggressors, so I will not discuss it here. 6 - In July 1981, the PLO, which had essentially taken over all of South Lebanon, commenced massive shelling of Israeli civilian population centers in the north. Israel responded with targeted air strikes on PLO military strongholds. But when diplomacy failed to bring about an end to the indiscriminate shelling of Israeli civilian areas by the PLO, Israel retaliated in June of 1982. The Arabs started six wars with Israel. Perfidiously, I might add.
20. To # 16 Allan
Mohammad ,   Jordan   (11.06.09)
How do you know that i am not a woman? lol and how do you know that i am an Arab? lol Now look you human garbage, i replied to Sarah the way i did to show her and others that its too easy to be rude and do personal attacks instead of coming up with serious ideas (as most people on Ynet do). By i way, i was not argueing, i was asking questions.lol Do you know the difference between making a statement and asking a question? Now, you also go and have a drink!lol
21. Perfidiously or not, observer, to the victor go the spoils
Cameron ,   USA   (11.06.09)
Winner take all.
22. To: No. 4
Sarah B ,   New York / Saviyon   (11.06.09)
"How do you know i am from Jordan?" You say that you are. Are you lying? "Why you repeated the six war thing twice?" They are raised in the penultimate and ultimate paragraphs of my post at no. 2 in two different contexts. "Do you still feel guilty since yesterday after uncle Gee blamed you for the terrible mistake you did? What guilt? It was an honest mistake, and I apologized for it. The Arabs have started so many wars against Israel, I had completely forgotten that the actual casus belli in 1956 was, indeed, Nasser's unlawful blockade of the Straits of Tiran. "lol, maybe your guilt is beyond yesterday, maybe it goes back to your childhood as Frued suggested" Again, what guilt? Your statement, in addition to being a complete non sequitur, is rambling and irrational. You seem to do that a lot, though, so I will give you the benefit of the doubt and accept that rational thought is just not part of your skill set. "Do you know what i just realized today? by saying that you are a merely a sheep in the herd yesterday i was insulting the sheeps.lol." Another non sequitur and irrational rant. Get a new script-writer. "Have not you noticed that i ignored you yesterday after you posted your genuis reply? Why do you keep on repeating the same mistake? Dont you know that "no answer" is an answer in itself? Do you think i have time for people with an IQ of a banana?" Ah. Irrational, egomaniacal and narcissistic as well. Quite the prize, you. I trust you did not invest too much time in composing your diatribe when "no answer" would have -- according to you -- achieved your purpose.
23. To: Allan at No. 16
Sarah B ,   New York / Saviyon   (11.06.09)
Thank you for your kind words, Allan. It was rather like shooting fish in a barrel, but .... oh well.
24. The only thing "interesting" about posts from Mo from Jordan
Tony   (11.06.09)
is how accurately they parrot the nonsense put out by the media. Anyone who lives in Israel knows full well that these news of "discrimination" against Russian, Sephardic, Ethiopian, etc. repatriates are just soooooo blown out of proportion that ideas like those coming from Moe would've been just funny if he actually wasn't serious.
25. :: Mohammad - Good point
Matty Groves ,   Fairport   (11.06.09)
I agree with this point. The ancient Jewish Kingdoms of Israel/Judah lasted no more than 350 years. On the other hand Muslims/Arabs ruled for approx 1,300 years in the same region. While I am not an apologist for Israel I would coincide that Modern day Israel, as a fledgling nation, is still struggling to establish itself as a legitimate nation. However denying Palestinians full statehood for decades is despicable. Or rather trying to establish Israel statehood at the *expense* of the Palestinian people is immoral. It could be argued that due to the history of the Jews (collective oppression) the result of this is the current Zionistic Inhumanity towards Palestinian and Arabs/Muslim in general. While this might be understandable it doesn't make it right/valid.
26. # 1 Mohammad, and "Observer"
Secularist ,   Israel   (11.06.09)
There is no discrimination in Israel among Jews, if it happens, it aims at the Ethiopians, neither Sephardics nor Russians. In fact, the majority of Sephardics and Ashkenazis are getting mixed within "interracial" marriage. Besides, your claims regarding the Palestinian issue, couldn't be used indirectly to the Iranian issue. Nor you or anyone else has the capability refuting the Iranian challenge because it based upon fanatic dogma of the revival of the 10th Imam Mahdi. Facing up with this type of fanaticism is an equivalent to Nazism or even further due to it's rooted vision. Do you think you or anyone else can convince Rabbi or Imam to eat pork?, no way. "Observer"- go educate yourself, you're such an ignorant, wimp who thinks his narrow-minded, radical leftist can in any way coincides with the common narratives, and FACTS about the Middle-East conflict. If you were our leader, we would be eliminated for sure because your cowardice wrapping of with the delusional view is screaming. Adjust yourself to the reality, otherwise you'll face horrific consequences.
27. To # 25 and # 26
Mohammad ,   Jordan   (11.06.09)
To #25: I totally agree with you that establishing a statehood at the expense of others is immoral and illegal (thats what i have been trying to explain for ages)! "It could be argued that due to the history of the Jews (collective oppression) the result of this is the current Zionistic Inhumanity towards Palestinian and Arabs/Muslim in general" Personally, i would not go that far with my analysis. Human beings are very complicated creatures as individuals which makes it even more difficult to understand why societies behave in a certain way. A lot of theories tried to explain human behaviour/motives and most of them provided over simplified answers. Its a very interesting topic, may i recommend you to watch "the century of the self" and "the trap", both are BBC documentries and you will be able to find them on youtube. Ideally, i think the Jews should use what you called "collective opperssion" (including the holocaust) as a lesson to aviod opperssing others! Finally, i think the world should understand and sympathise with the Jewiish people and their ambitions to establish a country (if they do it in a right and moral way) having a Jewish state will enrich humanity as they have a rich and a unique culture. To #26: Thanks for your answers, and i agree with you that dogmatic regimes including the Iranian one is a threat to humanity.
28. to 10 there is differance becouse who will be the first and
lili   (11.06.09)
29. to 26
nara   (11.06.09)
good evening sir ... to mohammad and observer good morning both of you
30. #25 Matty
Cynthia ,   USA   (11.06.09)
I think it would be more accurate to say that in spite of the external problems, the Jewish people have survived the past 3500 years through hard work, persistence, intelligence and fine tuned survival techniques, The Palestinians could learn from the Jews. They need to establish a goal and work to attain statehood. They should realize by now terror will not achieve their goals. And if the Palestinians want to be treated in a more humane fashion, they should stop behaving like savages who use suicide bombs and kassams as a form of communication.
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