They came in a place wherre there was a school , an Israeli not a charidi one . They , the strangers , have to accomodate or to look for another place . Such behaviour from those not contributing people is the main reason we , the Israeli people , don't want them in our vicinity .

And an article so utterly devoid of fact and full of opinionated quotes that I honestly can't see anything worth commenting over here. As for change and "outsiders" supposedly "forcing their ways" on the "locals"... look around you! Whenever populations move from one place to another, things change. Tel-Aviv used to have a thriving religious community and municipal laws that were based on religious values, and which were *kept*. Now it's Secular Avenue, and the main standard that rules is the secular standard. And it's pretty much the same anywhere populations shift - the local matters change with them, because the "locals" aren't the only people living there, and their status-quo isn't the only concern around anymore. The new people moving in aren't outsiders and invaders, though... they're just new locals. Though you've shown yet again, Charles, that when it comes to the insular sectarianism the seculars always accuse Haredim of, the pot is calling the kettle black.

when those invaders come , they have to adapt themselve to the locals . As for Tel Aviv , the religious died , the younger became smarter and left their parents faith , not to compare with an invasion . When i come in a religious community , i adapt myself and follow their rules , and do not impose my lifestyle on them . You showed again , Roman , that imposing your lifestyle on others , and extirping their money [ in another article ] is OK for you . But ovei , if the seculars want to defend themselve ! Seculars will not go to live in bene brak or mea shearim , the charidim can stay in their ghetto , not in the normal world .

if you don't see anything worth commenting over here ? Don't write "honestly" , it's not your rule .

What is so bad about being sensitive to the religious school and using a different entrance? Are they forcing you to do something so terrible? are they making you wear head scarves? why does the secular population feel so threatened? why cant we figure out a way to accommodate and live in harmony? Doesnt the left wing want peace with the arabs? wouldnt they agree to change their schools entrance location for an arab school? Hell wouldnt they agree to give away their home for the arabs?

No further comment.

so they can leave Kiryat Gat.

once again the charideem and their so called morality! With all the recent cased of child abuse lately i suggest they clean up their own house before they start taking over neighborhoods and preaching to others. Thanks but with those kind of morals keep them away from my children. How about teaching them a bit of Geography, they might discover that Israel is not part of Iran and here people have a choice its called freedom and democracy. What will they be teaching in such schools ? Advanced stone thorwing ? how to cause a riot ? all you need to know about state benefits ? How to dodge the draft ?

They don't teach them about state benefits , only how to "extort" those benefits .

They came there after this school . They knew that there was a school , and that there could be some "immodesty" . So why "dafkah" there ? Don't they think that acting this way will not improve their relations with the normal world ? The Seculars threatened ? yes ! because those charidim want to impose their lifestyle on everyone . That's also why people oppose them in Haifa and Kiryat Hayovel . Listen , where i lived abroad , a charidi rented a house opposite to mine . After a time he asked me not to drive my car on Shabbat because it hurts him that a Jew does it . Even begalut they want to impose their lifestyle .

I propose that Israel builds 5-10 ghettos, scattered all over Israel, and relocate all Haredim there. In their minds, they are still in 17th century - why don't we make them feel at home?

These are different issues.

Last time we had this conversation, you had to look yourself in the mirror and realize that you were accusing me of something without any basis - instead of accepting that, you attacked me further for not being "sensible" and accepting your personal insults as the only reasonable path for you at the time. I don't take your money, Charles - you take mine. You don't fund extra bus subsidies for Charedim - no one does, it's up to the bus companies themselves to decide if they want to charge less than the cap the state sets. And apparently, when I mention that in a democratic society which has several groups with different standards that must *compromise* and *coexist*, I am in fact saying that it should all go my way, or the Haredi way, or whatever way that isn't your own. This in a country where secular laws and secular lifestyle set the course for almost every aspect of our lives. Well here's the thing - I only bothered to post here because I saw that the article brought the unfortunate reaction it was meant to bring - making bigots feel better about their bigotry. The article is entirely based on rumor, hearsay, and personal opinion of a few teachers. There is no accurate, factual information whatsoever beyond the official line of the municipal council - the rest are the personal views of the people interviewed. And yet all you see is evil Haredi coercion, and even go as far as to say that they don't have the slightest right to change anything anywhere they move into, because they're not "locals". When I mention that such a process is natural, prevalent, and occurred across the country and that's occurring to this day, as populations move and shift... you say that it doesn't happen with seculars. That the religious just "smartened up" and became atheists. That's because the seculars are people of the group you identify with, and we can't have that group being like the rest, right? They're the normal ones, the ones who do everything right, the ones who can't be criticized as a group because becoming one of them is the supposed natural and best result for all. Yeah. Right. As I said, the pot calling the kettle black.

Where did i say , or even insinuate that you are a liar ? Where do i take your money ? You only want rights for you , no rights for others [ no buses for you on shabbat , but my right to have ? ] Yoiu said that because you payfor the buses , you don't want them to ride on Shabbat . Now you say that nobody subsidises them . Do youi know what you write . Regarding the black ketel , this is in lod not in my Town . I prefer to discuss with democratic people , not fascists who don't accept other's rights .

Charles and Roman over this issue and others which flow from it, I have found the argument both spirited, informative and educational and I thank you both for your input. Incidentally, I need time to digest it all before taking a position because the implications of these challenging issues (secular rights versus the rights of Charedim) for Israel could be enormous.

You were implying that I shouldn't be using the word "honestly", because writing in an honest manner was not my way. And no, I don't want rights just for me - you just seemingly fail to see that we can't have everything, the two of us. You don't see that religious Jews in this country already give up on a great deal, and that pure secular concerns rule the vast majority of the state and its considerations. My contribution to this state, be it financial or otherwise, is already directed toward avenues I abhor, and which only seculars benefit from. I, and other religious Jews in this country, have already given up on a great deal by default. And yet, you honestly seem to believe that whenever *you* must give something up, to compromise and accept that it's not just you and your concerns that exist here, you rant and rave about how someone is forcing things on you. Well, we religious Jews have things forced on us all the time. Mostly we've learned to accept it. But we have our lines, and this is where democracy comes in. You call me a fascist, and yet so far, you seem entirely blind to the fact that you take what secularism forces over the religious *for granted*. You no longer see it. It's the norm. And that's not democracy, Charles. That's merely the tyranny of the majority, a majority that has long ago gotten used to it. As for buses, read what I wrote - bus subsidies in the state of Israel are a financial compensation for loss due to regulation. That means that bus companies get compensated for the fact that they're legally bound to provide lines across the country and inside cities and towns, even where it's not profitable to do so, and operating under *distance-based upper caps for prices*. That's the subsidies. You, in contrast, have implied time and time again that ultra-Orthodox Jews get bus subsidies from your pocket, a patently false statement that has no legal or factual basis. Competing bus companies charge different prices for the same distances and line types all the time. It's called capitalism, AKA turning a profit and earning money to workers and company owners. Another such aspect of capitalism, often encountered in large stores and retailers, is that of *selling more* for *less*, which means bigger profit than *selling less* for *more*. Ultra-Orthodox Jews have one of the smallest percentages of cars compared to other groups. That means they make use of public transportation a lot more. Smaller budgets also means tighter control of expenses, so the best way to encourage them to travel on public transportation more and on a regular basis (rather than trying to minimize it due to costs) is making it cheaper. That means more people use the bus, and more often. And that means more profit. You, Charles, belong to a demographic that has the *most* cars per family in this country. That means that, profit-wise, you interest bus companies less. That's financial reality.

Debate is the cornerstone of society. Unfortunately, online debates, being more detached and with a lesser sense of control, tend to spiral out of control. Emotion takes over, a failing I also recognize in myself and which I try to curb when possible.

What i mean by "honestly writing" is not as you do . When talking about A you answer with B [ your answer to Avi . He was talking about taking money , you answered that people can't live with 1700 - 1800 ] And i certainly don't mean that you are a liar [ your paranoia ! ] Regarding those buses , i see often the 79 line in the morning . Almost empty . So where is the need ? As for their fares , the differences are too big [ Arad-Bene berak 25 ILS , Arad-Kyriat Malachi junction already 37 ILS ] Religious have the smallest % of cars , normal if you don't work , have a lot of children , you can't pay a car [ and you need a big one ! ] You give in to the seculars ? What ? By allowing private cars to ride Shabbat ? Or by not shutting radio and TV this day ? or by not forbiding the sale of pork to those who want to eat it [ not me , as you know ] ? It's mostly the religious who impose their rules . Why do we have to listen to an "el male rachamim" when seculars are buried ? or at the kryiat shema every weekday at 5.57 AM , or "mizmor shir leshabbat" at 7.00 AM [ when i suppose no religious will listen ] No store can be cheaper on everything , they all have some products that attract buyers because of their low price . Most of the big packages are of a lower quality than the "normal" sized . You can have 1kg humus for the same , or lower , price as 250 gr of another quality . שבת שלום

when talking about bus fares . All Egged , you can check it on their site . And generally , when a company is cheaper on a route , Egged adapt her prices . I have seen it some time ago on the T.A. Ashdod , or TA Arlozorov - Beer Sheva lines , where i had to pay the same at an Egged or at a different operator .

Anti-Semites from time by-gone. also, since when is secularism "smarter"