Ethics is not about self/material interests. Its about personal values, right and wrong. moral choices, and what it means to live a good or bad life. Ethical actions are the art of sacrificing some of our self interests in order to help/improve other people's life. When we give away some of our money to help the poor for instance, we become worse off (in materialistic terms) but we do it because we believe its the right thing to do! The vast majority of articles on Ynet (including this one) discuss the peace process/the conflict from a self-interest (unethical) perspective only (demography, security ...etc) and whether peace is going to benefit Israel or not! so according to the author, if making peace is not going to benefit Israel, then she should not go ahead with the negotiations with the Palestinians and should keep the status quo. Israel should return the west bank to the Palestinians regardless of demoraphy and security in my opinion. Israel should do whatever it takes to make peace because its simply the right thing to do, and because war is wrong!

We could be 80% if we can even pay arabs to emigrate out of Israel or Judea and Samaria. Instead of spending money to bring new jewish immigrants (which sources are slowly drying up - especially Russia,and older USSR countries and Argentina too), let's send money on arabs to go out especially those we are perceived as violently opposed to Israel like the muslim arabs group. Druwe and chrisitian arabs are generally more open to multicultaralism and are an asset and not a burden for Israel. Anyway, I have read that 50% of arabs wish to do so if they were given the opportunity! Let's give them this oppprtunity!! Quickly!! btw, occupation (International community version) or return on our land (israeli version) is not a long term solution too. We can get rid of some large palestinian areas (Nablus and Hebron areas in particular) if we obtain a permanent settlement. But seeing those numbers we can be more patient than in a hurry.

of the evilangelical right in America. Look here is the deal. Here at the Pentagon I look in cubicles (and see there little shrines and icons), I listen to conversations at "water fountains" I must listen and retain all the information from various briefs and official functions and this is what I clearly discern. Americans regardless of race, color, religion, sexual preference, gender or even native language are struggling to cope and discover a moral locus/Apex/paradigm for the military adventurism embarked on by GWB. Here is what I invariably, consistently and continually surmise. All this loss, all this effort, all this application of national prestige surely cannot be because we unanimously abandoned our founding ethics and principles and supported a war based on bigotry?? Oh know WTF over? The higher purpose here is what was so adeptly articulated by Eva Braun/Anne Coulter, this was done to "Perfect the Jewish People" and in this endeavor to protect and perfect the Jewish people, Israel shall, must and will become a wholly owned client/subsidiary/suzerainty of Washington DC and in 2012 management is going to be passed back the the nascent 4 Reich, evilangelical American style. This (millennial kingdom and new manifest destiny) will expand and encompass the entire M.E. and inevitably grow to the circumference of the equator. And why might you ask? Because the equator is where the savage peoples dwell and they vastly outnumber the peoples of the greatest civilization ever the USA - founded by GW and aided the by beneficence of THE JESUS, so sayeth Pat Robertson, Fred Phelps and Sarah Palin.

This is a huge bone of contention, cause it was not only clinton, but olmert and livni have been pushing israel hard on a deal because of demographics. No deal should be made out of fear or if its a bad deal.Livni has proposed one such bad deal, liekwise beilin, ben ami, ramon. Tractor terror terrorized olmert and ramon beyond reason along with their accomplices, the supporters of peretz as defence miniister--tamir, haber, paz pines, be simon. They can all go to the hall of shame. Ettinger should publish his data everyhwhere. One must raise the jordan as part of palestine as there is a lot of space. Israelis may want one fallback position.If the worst comes to pass and israel is offered a piece of say greenland, no strings for example, she may want to build a state and get away from the arabs who can take their holy spaces and shove it up.In such a situation, israel would have to be paid 20 trillion dollars and a guarantee no claims deal to the land- and a good size peace of land. Palestine would then revert to the garabage dump it was in the past and they can then pump out all the sewage they care to.

nm

incentives for Arabs to join their bretheren in the vast Arab world.

Although I wish this is the case the truth is otherwise. 1)Of these one miilion Russian olim at least 30% are not Jewish 2)Aliya is way down 3)There are 50,000 abortions in Israel, mostly Jewish 4)The Arab population in Judea and Samaria may not be as high as the Arabs claim yet it also might not be as low as he claims 5)Thousands of non-Jewish Africans many of whom are Muslim have crossed into Israel. More needs to be done to ensure a Jewish majority.

Finally the documented, substantiated facts start coming out. Anyone who had a idea about realities on the ground, a "feel" for the social movements & people involved; & a technical or mathematical leaning, knew that the bombastic "Sky is falling in" demographic declarations were incorrect. The failed, disasterous policies of the last 15 Oslo years were often driven by delusions, fantasies, personal &/or international agendas, and money. The "Womb-Bomb" was a large part of it. Always check the sources; always ask for multiple confirmations from multiple sources; always ask: "What is the sources's agenda in providing this information"; & always ask: "What are the potential & ultimate consequences if this information is a) Incorrect (or) b) Correct? Remember: "In the Land of the Blind, the one eyed man is King", & (especially political) "Management by Crisis" usually has a destrucive, selfish agenda behind it. Last: In today's world, news (& hysterical reactions) travel at the speed of light, whereas war, disaster relief, construction, & social or life changing decisions move at the speed of forklifts, trucks, tanks, human considerations, & individual development. It is always handy to remember Kipling!

The issue isn't Jews and Arabs, it is Zionists and anti-Zionists. Among the Jewish population, the biggest growth is anti-Zionists (i.e., Haredim). A recent newspaper article pointed out that this year's grade school population is 50% Zionist and 50% anti-Zionist (i.e., Arabs and Haredim). So what is our future? Who is going to serve in the Israeli Army?

Ok, lets examine the scenario in which Israel annexes the West Bank. Do you intend to withhold citizenship of the Palestinians forever, in hopes that they might just go to Jordan? (Yes, I know that Jordan should be their home, but that does not make them go there.) Assuming that the answer to the above question is 'no', how does Israel look in 2025? Do you think the Palestinians are going to put up with their status, as the Jews are only a bare 67% majority? Can a democracy annex a region, and still forever deny citizenship to people who are born in that region? Mr. Ettinger, without directly addressing these issues, your 'solution' seems to be a recipe for perpetual conflict between Jews and Arabs that will eventually erode U.S. support for Israel. Also, for those people who think you can just pay the Palestinians to leave, I wish you were right, but I do not think it is very realistic. It seems to me that the only way annexation can work is to transfer the Palestinians to Jordan (with compensation), whether they want to go or not. I am not necessarily advocating this; I am just saying that you had better think long and hard about these issues. You cannot just ignore the problem and hope it goes away on its own.

Judea and Samaria will NOT be "returned". Arabs living there are free to return to your beautiful kingdom !

I think Israel is lucky enough to be controled by a majority of seculars/atheists, otherwise she would be a carbon copy of her neighbours. May i remind you that the secular zionists are the ones who established the state of Israel, not the orthodox Jews. Without them you would have been studying your talmud somewhere else. Well, this is our destiny, either to deal with religious fanatics, or with racial nationalism. Although both are extremely bad, i would personally go for the second option!

for a good compensation with my wife and three children ,and hopefully 3 more in the next few years , but i were to recive a amount of moola now , i would be happy to leave this land to the jews , just someone come forward with the moola , pleeeeez..

I agree: Ethics is about right and wrong, not self-interests. But it was originally Bill Clinton who applied the self-interest argument, and Yoram Ettinger is simply answering on that level. Unfortunately for us all, the distinction between right and wrong is easy only in fairy tales. For example, giving up whole Judea and Samaria would maybe be right for the Arabs who live there, but would certainly be wrong towards Jews who have a 3000+ year old history there, who currently live there and who would be killed once Arabs start firing Kassams from there. I agree: Making peace is the right thing to do and Israel should advance it as much as possible (short of committing suicide). I just don't see how giving territories to Arabs advances peace. It didn't work with Oslo, it didn't work with south Lebanon, and it didn't work with Gaza. Why should it work for Judea and Samaria?

In THE last one week I have been talking with my friends in the ME and all around the world.Over this INSUBODINATION ISSUE IN THE IDF ! THE IDF SOLDIERS ARE CONFUSED WITH TWO STATE SOLUTION AND TWO NATION THEORY. Rabbis at the IDF have been TEACHING THE WRONG STUFF ! The mind and understanding o f the IDF soldier been bombarded with a very wrongful notion that the Israeli- pals conflict of the Annapolis conference is very far different from the actual understanding in their mind. The boys don’t like the idea of Arabs citizens be given the choice of staying with Israel and becoming citizen of Palestine. They got the whole concept of binational solution of twine regime federalist arrangements confused with the unitary state method’s they resort to a new idea of no nation plan or the Allan Plan . There has been the emergence of a new ideas in favor of the two- state solution. But there has also been the emergence of two nation Theory. There has been a conflict on these. This conflict went about rooting into the IDf without checked. Now it has caught its place to break up into two varying differences of thoughts in the IDF. The blame worthy party here is actually the PEEL COMMISSION for the Partition Plan !They looted while these was being implemented. They partition Arab, Jews and mandated territory. Most of the boy we have now are on e that don’t know history of the 1937. The 1947 UN Partition Plan caused another difficulty – ie the there way plans in 1937 plan but making Jerusalem under the international control .This has an attraction on the mind of the IDF boys and they find it attractive cos it eradicate the Arabs leadership an d Palestinian leadership. However our boy are aware that in 1967 Jerusalem was on the Jewish Quarter of the side. They want it to remain that way . Clinton made it worst, he split the Temple Mount vertically this is not acceptable to the our boys in the IDF. The whole Oslo, accords, camp David, and the Tara was a screw up of WORLD LEADER who don’t know the heart and minds of the jews. We have not changed in ages, and we will not. So this is the case of the division in the IDF now. No body there believe in the territorial adjustment . we know the whole problem was started by the British splitting the land toward Trans Jordan. Even Benjamin Netanyahu use to argue that for a form of two-state solution in which a Palestinian state is granted most of the attributes of an independent state but denied certain aspects of sovereignty that might allow it to threaten Israel. Actually Benjamin Netanyahu is in sequence with the Kfir boys. The Idf is split now with the opposition of one track mind , fair enough, for any decent jew to kick out the idea propounded by Crown prince of Saudi Arabia, Arab peace Initiative, Arad league, UN Security Council resolution 1937 . They are sensitive towards the Judean hills and the heritage. These hills locate the historical and holi cites of the Jews .Jews want those places to be centered to Jews . Netanyahu argues, for example, that the future state's ability to import arms should be restricted. That is exactly these kfir boys are arguing in the strike .But don’t get the proper cannel to voice out so they put banners and speak through the banners. BEN SINGAPORE BENJAMIN , SINGAPORE (11.20.09)

It is essential that the process and strategy of offering Israeli citizenship to West Bank Arabs must be very carefully planned, including its timing, demographic, geographic, historical and social factors. Citizenship will include all the benefits currently available to the citizens of Israel including: health care, education, welfare, economic incentives, employment, social safety nets, voting rights and others. The responsibilities of citizenship will include a public oath of loyalty to the State of Israel. The procedures and the details of the citizenship offer will be determined as an internal matter by the State of Israel. Each country determines its own citizenship rules and there are many models ranging from extremes like Switzerland where citizenship is often not granted for several generations, and the extremely restrictive standards set by Islamic States to the more liberal standards applied by other countries. Since the process will be phased in over time, the possibility to adjust the procedures appropriately will be available as circumstances require. www.onestateplan.com. you can read the details

Mark, Thanks for your info about the one state plan. I will read it over carefully. Prior to my having read the info at your website, it seems that you are planting the seeds for an eventual bi-national state. With Jews constituting only 67%, how is this a Jewish state?

sarcastic. It is not as impossible are you think. If you, guys, are serious and determined we'll get the money.

Both have been corrupted with Arab Islamist-Jihadist states' money. As recipients of donations from Arab countries and entities, they have become a mouthpiece of Arab Islamist-Jihadist interests. Ergo, they are crusading the causes of the Arabs against Israel. Israel should never allow them to step foot in Israel. They do not know anything about Islamist-Jihadism. By receiving money from the wolves and tigers of the Middle East, they have sold their soul to the devil. They are irrelevant.

These are the current demographic facts: Palestinians: Population: 3.84 in 2008 A steady and constant population growth of 3.4% since 2000 Fertility rate was 5.1% in 2000 but has remained steady at 4.6% ever since. Israelis: Population (including non-Jews): 7.31 in 2008 Population growth was 2.6 in 2000 but fell to a steady 1.8% since then. Fertility rate was 3% in 2000 but has remained basically steady at just under 3% ever since. Note that the growth rate of the Arab population in Israel is 2.6% as opposed to 1.7% - 1.8% for Jews. In short the Palestinians still have a higher population growth rate and fertility rate than Israelis.

you sound like a reasonable person. doesn't it sound to you as though secular nationalism (at leat for now) is either dying a slow death or is already dead. in the arab world, arabism died with nasser and 1967. in israel, secular zionism appears to be on its way out in the face of the growing birth rates of the relgious (8 children a family). the issue with the demographics is that there is a sub group within the jewish population that has massive growth rates, and if one were to look at the calculus derived 'derivatives' of growth, i think this article would be probably correct. the reality is that in the next 50 years, we will be living in a world of religious fanatics. in terms of ethics, i would defer to machiavelli, because right now while israel could do the 'right' thing, we could probably both agree that the neighbors would not (and/or vice versa).

Charaidim which B"H have 8-12 children per family on average

People can act according to ethics. Governments only act on inerest. Judea and Samaria cannot be returned to a palestinian governemnt if the Israeli Government believes it will be used as a rocket launching base. Collective suicide is neither in Israel's interest and is not ethical either.

" But it was originally Bill Clinton who applied the self-interest argument, and Yoram Ettinger is simply answering on that level" For your info, this is not the first time the author writes about the demographic balance between the Palestinians and the Israelis. On Feb 22, 2009 "The Jerusalem Post" published an article for Yoram Ettinger titled "Let's leverage the good demographic news" so basically in his article today he is merely repeating his original idea and Bill Clinton is only an excuse. This is what you do when you run out of new ideas if you understand what i mean. "Unfortunately for us all, the distinction between right and wrong is easy only in fairy tales. For example, giving up whole Judea and Samaria would maybe be right for the Arabs who live there, but would certainly be wrong towards Jews who have a 3000+ year old history there, who currently live there and who would be killed once Arabs start firing Kassams from there." I could not disagree with you more. Giving the west bank to the Palestinians to establish their state is the right thing to do for both parties as its one of the main obstacles to make peace, As you know "Land for peace" is the interpretation of UN Security Council Resolution 242 which has formed the basis of subsequent Arab-Israeli peace making. In addition, the Jewish history is not limited to the west bank as the Jewish people have spreaded all over the world during their long years in the diaspora. You mentioned the Jews who are currently living in the west bank, but you failed to mention the millions of Palestinian refugees who had homes and lands in Israel and who have rights that should not be ignored. "I agree: Making peace is the right thing to do and Israel should advance it as much as possible (short of committing suicide). I just don't see how giving territories to Arabs advances peace. It didn't work with Oslo, it didn't work with south Lebanon, and it didn't work with Gaza. Why should it work for Judea and Samaria?" Why did not you mention that peace worked well with both Egypt and Jordan? Israel has not signed a peace treaty yet neither with the Palestinians nor with the lebanese, so we cannot say that peace has failed! On the other hand, if Israel does the right thing and gives the west bank back to the Palestinians and she got attacked afterwards, then no one would blame Israel for whatever action it takes to protect itself. However, Israel is currently an occupation force and the terrorists in Hamas are using that as an excuse to fire the rockets into Israel, and guess what: those bastreds make a valid point when they say that they are resisting the occupation. I dont personally agree with them nor with their methods but i also regard the occupation as the main cause of the conflict.

To #25: I believe that religion is the one that is currently dying, not secularism. As you know, science is advancing very fast and common sense started to prevail so the G-d of gaps has nothing much left to hide behind. What we are witnessing now is the beginings of an Islamic reform. I know that might sound strange to you but things always get worse before it starts to get better. The media concentrates only on the rise of terror but ignores the rise of liberalism and atheism as a reaction to terrorism. Let us remember that it was the corruption in the catholic church that triggered the protestants movement and the reform of christianity, and its terror that will trigger the reform in muslim countries. Finally, Machiavelli was born in the 15th century and we live now in the 21st century, so our values and political science itself has changed massively since then. To #28: I agree with you that governments and politicians are more concerned with interests than ethics. However, i was talking to ordniary people when i wrote my talkback, not to governments. In the age of democracy (including Israel), politicains have no choice but to reflect on their people's desires, otherwise they wont be elected again, so if the vast majority of Israelis decided to return the west bank to the palestinians, the Israeli government will have no choice but to execute (and this what happened with Gaza by the way) Finally, i dont see that what happened in Gaza will repeat itself in the west bank as the west bank is governed by moderate Palestinian leadership. If Palestinians in the west bank have a real intention to fire rockets into Israel, so why they are not doing it right now!! Its not the Israeli occupation of the west bank nor the fence that is protecting Israel in my opinion, Its the moderate palestinian leadership in the west bank.