Jewish Scene  Rabbi Levi Brackman
Unsustainable haredi system needs systemic change
Rabbi Levi Brackman
Published: 10.01.10, 07:24
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27 Talkbacks for this article
1. Another vicious attack on Jews by Mr. Levi Brackman on Ynet
Ariel Ben Yochanan ,   Kfar Tapuah, Efraim,   (01.10.10)
2. Ah! thank you
Talula ,   Israel   (01.10.10)
Like I've been saying all along. The Haredi NEED an education outside religion. They have their noses stuck in a prayer book all day (well, apart from the time when they are out rioting and smashing up our beloved Jerusalem) - their lack of knowledge about current affairs and refusal to learn a trade and integrate into the 21st century keeps them living in the past - a primitive and backwards past - never to evolve.
3. To become normal
Sagi   (01.10.10)
one must first of all start to dress and behave in a fashion consistent with the norm. One must have respect for the law of the land. The change in mentality and attitude will come automatically after this. Outsiders, in any society will always be regarded as strange and certainly with a degree of misapprehension. They have to join the flock or remain forever strangers at best or undesirables at worst. Society, like all else, is dynamic, those who are in denial and wish to remain encapsulated will eventually fade away, society will disregard them and they will follow the rules of nature, extinction.
4. Attitude of #1
Yisrael ,   Jerusalem, ISRAEL   (01.10.10)
This small headline indicates clearly the depth of the problem faced. Haredim refuse to even consider that their behaviour constitutes a Chillul Hashem, as they turn other Jews off religion. This is not to mention the dictates of Rabbis through the ages, who declared that one must work to support oneself, not be a burden on the community, and not turn the Torah into a spade.
5. If they don't want to work, they don't have to...!
Dorothy Friend ,   Tel Aviv   (01.10.10)
As long as we can change the welfare system to make them less of a burden on everybody else, and that includes the working modern orthodox. It is there right not work and to dress like 18th century Polish aristocracy, as long as the rest of us don't have to foot the bill.
6. about time
shtim ,   jerusalem, israel   (01.10.10)
thanks for the article, its about time people start talking about this. hopefully people in israel will start working and that will trigger a similar revolution in new york
7. Rabbi Brackman: when you have someone like Talula thanking
L ,   Elad, Israel   (01.10.10)
thanking you for an article with a satisfied "Ah!" and Sagi chiming in -- you know there is a problem. Great points, sir. Fine article. WRONG FORUM. Do you think your message is read by many haredim HERE? You have all the anti-Haredi folk smacking their chops. Please. Go write for "Mishpacha" or the like!
8. Not an attack on Haredim, or a radical suggestion
Rebecca ,   Modiin   (01.10.10)
This is a good article except that it simply does not show just how hard it will be to change the status quo. He did not attack Haredim at all. He highlighted a major problem that needs to be addressed. But for the average reader he did not show how difficult this will be to change. An example would be if all secular brides and their familes had to suddenly wear dresses that were Properly sneus, decent. What he is asking for is far harder to achieve than that. PS - good article - thank you
9. The great Hillel worked as a ditch digger! So y...
(01.10.10)
can't these modern learned young men get jobs too?
10. Look at Beni Barak
Emma ,   Israel   (01.10.10)
Beni Barak had the Coca Cola factory and they are doing quite well for themselves. If all the Haredim in Israel produced like that, our GDP here in Israel would rise and poverty levels would lower significantly.
11. Why not just let them implode?
Netanel ,   Israel   (01.10.10)
If it's really unsustainable, then just let Haredi society implode. Don't use "it's unsustainable" as an excuse to impose your will on them.
12. I can only tell you my experience...There was a time
Al   (01.10.10)
going way back to the 60's where secular studies were the norm in the Yeshivas..I graduated such a Yeshiva and from there went onto University..got several degrees and made my living and indeed quite a bit of money over my working lifetime. Today I am close or about to retire and ready to take it all in. Point being my Rabbis who were very good people did not object to the idea of a secular education, indeed they encouraged it. They were all holocaust survivors and they understood you have to make a living in this world. Welfare and being a schnorrer was not in their lexicon. Over the past 40 years this has changed and so today we have this warped sense of entitlement. There is no dichotomy between Torah education and secular studies. What is going on today is heartbreaking, criminal and quite simply a shanda. Being poor is not a right of passage. Abraham was far from being a poor man..He changed the world..
13.  # 7
Sagi   (01.10.10)
Thank you Sir.
14. Concurrence
David ,   Jerusalem   (01.10.10)
I come from an American Chabad background. When I arrived in Israel and saw how the hareidim live, and heard how they justify it, I promptly moved into a mainstream orthodox community. The Morroccan shtiebl I daven in still doesn't know what to do with the guy with the fedora and the frock coat. Our sages were men with parnasa. So much so that they said one should even flay skins in the market to earn a living if need be (ergo - do dirty unpleasant work). Thus the dictum: ain kemach ain torah. If there is no wheat/flour there is no torah. Avraham Avinu eschewed gifts and worked to make a living, as did Isaac and Jacob. As did chazal. They chopped wood, drew water, worked as craftsmen, or supported themselves through trade. So must we. The holiest among us are those with both parnasa and Torah. Freeloading is not the way of the patriarchs or the sages. Its not authentically Jewish.
15. you people are hysterical
working stiff   (01.10.10)
as if there are oodles of jobs waiting to be filled . . . . So you want this huge population to become working folk. Then when they don't find jobs, they'll all cash in on unemployment benefits, which are of course for free. Why don't you just leave sleeping dogs alone?
16. Learn and work
Reuven ,   Israel   (01.10.10)
I am chareidi and also think that men can both learn Torah and hold a job, half a day for each.
17. Misplaced pride of Rabbi Brackman
Loyal Jew ,   Efrat   (01.10.10)
The first and best use of Jews' wealth is to support Torah scholars. By turning it down and taking pride in that, RAbbi Brackman suggests that Torah scholars didn't learn a "trade," when in fact they have the highest trade, the one that supports us all.
18. he got revelation, he should
ghostq   (01.10.10)
have shouted Urika, for something people around the world say for dacades. today I am in cynical mood. so now all you have to do make those people to get busy.
19. I used to read a good deal about
Robert Haymond ,   Ashdod, Israel   (01.10.10)
everyday life in the shtetls of eastern Europe. In one book entitled "Life is with People", the writer said that all the rabbis in the shtetls worked at everyday jobs and, on top of that, led and counselled their constituents as well. Besides supporting themselves, working was considered a way of experiencing how all common people functioned as well as a way of understanding them. Such people had to be really committed to be a rabbi. I was under a misapprehension when I arrived in Israel and visited and stayed in Mea Shearim. People, by and large, did not work and many of them begged. They wore clothes which were unnatural for a warm climate, as if, by expunging the natural order of things, they could reach a higher level of spirituality. Being from the West and being educated (as an adult) by Native American Indians from the praries, I found their ways extraordinarily unnatural and so obviously contrary to the natural order of things, unlike the ways taught by sensible people like Native Americans. I do believe there is something unnatural about Haredi life but I wish it wasn't so. I try to imagine what greater heights our nation could attain if the Haredim could contribute to the greater society instead of shutting themselves off. I am not hostile to the Haredim. I was always treated respectfully and in a friendly manner. I just think it's "too bad".
20. JESUSALEN
cristian ,   bs as arg   (01.10.10)
BUT IN THE LAST DAYS IT SHALL COME TO PASS,THAT THE MOUNTAIN OF THE HOUSE OF THE LORD SHALL BE ESTABLISHED IN THE TOP OF THE MOUNTAINS,AND IT SHALL BE EXALTED ABOVE THE HILLS,AND PEOPLE SHALL FLOW UNTO IT AND MANY NATIONS SHALL COME,AND SAY COME AND LET US GO UP TO THE MOUNTAINS OF THE LORD AND TO THE HOUSE OF THE ELOHIM OF JACOB AND HE WILL TEACH US OF HIS WAYS,AND WE WILL WALK IN HIS PATHS FOR THE LAW SHALL GO FORTH OF ZION AND THE WORD OF THE LORD FROM JESUSALEN AND HE SHALL JUDGE AMONG MANY PEOPLE AND REBUKE STRONG NATIONS AFAR OFF AND THEY SHALL BEAT THEIR SWORDS INTO PLOWSHARES AND THEIR SPEARS INTO PRUNINGHOOKS NATION SHALL NOT LIFT UP A SWORD AGAINST NATION NEITHER SHALL THEY LEARN WAR ANY MORE BUT THEY SHALL SIT EVERY MAN UNDER HIS VINE AND UNDER HIS FIG TREE AND NONE SHALL MAKE THEM AFRAID FOR THE MOUTH OF THE LORD OF HOSTS HATH SPOKEN IT,MICAH 4
21. Well said #19,but attitude needs change
tom ,   washington state   (01.10.10)
Their attitude towards others is a big part of the problem.By working at a trade,besides taking care of themselves and their families, they may be exposed to us the "other" and interact and grow as a human.I,also have been taught by Native American elders after spending years in a yeshiva.They taught me how to pray that was most meaningful in my life.My elder also brought me back to my jewishness,and told me never to forget about where I come from.Yet my brother, not haredi, still thinks I'm missing the boat because I don't use a siddur to pray when I walk each day from his house on my visits, to pray -my way- at the kotel.The haredim don't even think I'm jewish
22. To work or Not to Work that is the question
Norman Gellman ,   Rehovot, Israel   (01.11.10)
This phenomenon goes back many generations. More than an attitude towards work is required. In today's world an education is required for any job. The haredi must not only get a mind set that working for a living is the right way , they must also change their school curriculum to include math & sciences , etc so that they can qualify for higher education. A change of "uniform" might also help them qualify for some jobs. A reduction of the dole might help change their attitude towards work.
23. Very interesting, Tom:
Robert Haymond ,   Ashdod, Israel   (01.11.10)
For years, the Elders, one way or another, let me know that, while I was always welcome, I was not an "Indian", that the Creator meant for me to be something else (a Jew). It was only after a significant experience at an Ulpan while staying with my family in Eretz Yisrael two years ago that the ambivalence about my identity as a Jew became resolved. I still attend Native Indian ceremonies on the prairies (Canada) and pray with Indians and they continue to welcome me. But I am a Jew (ani yehudi). Please feel free to contact me at my email address to continue what could be an interesting and enriching discussion.
24. My idea
Albert   (01.11.10)
Cut off all welfare payments and make them ALL go in the army. That should turn things around.
25. They come to my house to beg
Avraham ,   Cleveland, USA   (01.11.10)
300+ Israeli haredim per year come to my house. I give them what I can. But I figured out how to make a living. I got a degree. I have worked hard to make it in my profession. I feed my own kids and pay their tuition at the Hebrew Academy. The haredi world needs to become more self-sufficient instead of coming to me.
26. Stop It NOW
Jimmy37 ,   Brooklyn, NY   (01.11.10)
If chazal can make takanahs about funerals, they can make takanahs about weddings. This is as sick as the Hindus who spend more money on weddings.
27. a bit fuzzy
tom ,   toronto, canada   (04.03.10)
the cost of weddings and/or large dowries are not unique to the hareidi community and are not the crux of the problem. young couples in israel will always get help from their parents to "get started". but most will also get a job. the real issue is the attitude that a man can get married, father children, and not work to support his family. if our sages did not consider earning a living to be a waste of time, why does our current crop of perpetual students think they are more precious than chazal? and why do the heads of the yeshivas perpetuate this arrogance?
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