Jewish Scene
US Reform Jews protest conversion law
Ynet
Published: 15.03.10, 15:02
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1. so, what's ur favorite? Reform Jews or conversion law?
observer   (03.15.10)
2. Delegitimize?
Reuven Brauner ,   Raanana, Israel   (03.15.10)
You delegitimized yourselves when you rejected the Oral Torah and Halacha. You delegitimized yourselves when you denied that G-d authored the Torah. You delegitimized yourselves when you rejected the Shulchan Aruch and stopped studying the Talmud. You delegitimized yourselves when you drove cars on Shabbos, ate lobsters, and your wives stopped going to the Mikveh. etc, What makes you better than a Goy?
3. Dear Reuven #2
Ariel ,   São Paulo - Brazil   (03.15.10)
Please , read this article , and tell who is deligitimize here. This is the written Law If you want , you can found a lot about the Oral Law in http://www.daatemet.org.il/issues.cfm By the way , I'm an Orthodox Sionist (Bnei Akiva) , but I Know that changes need to be made in order to preserve our unity . Laura Schlessinger is a US radio personality who dispenses advice to people who call in to her radio show. Recently, she said that as an observant Orthodox Jew, she holds that homosexuality is an abomination according to Leviticus 18:22 and cannot be condoned in any circumstance. The following is an open letter to Dr. Laura penned by a US resident, which was posted on the Internet. Dear Dr. Laura: Thank you for doing so much to educate people regarding God's Law. I have learned a great deal from your show, and I try to share that knowledge with as many people as I can. When someone tries to defend the homosexual lifestyle, for example, I simply remind them that Leviticus 18:22 clearly states it to be an abomination. End of debate. I do need some advice from you, however, regarding some of the specific laws and how to follow them. a) When I burn a bull on the altar as a sacrifice, I know it creates a pleasing odour for the Lord (Lev. 1:9). The problem is my neighbors. They claim the odour is not pleasing to them. Should I smite them? b) I would like to sell my daughter into slavery, as sanctioned in Exodus 21:7. In this day and age, what do you think would be a fair price for her? c) I know that I am allowed no contact with a woman while she is in her period of menstrual uncleanliness (Lev. 15:19-24). The problem is, how do I tell? I have tried asking, but most women take offense. d) Lev. 25:44 states that I may indeed possess slaves, both male and female, provided they are purchased from neighboring nations. A friend of mine claims that this applies to Mexicans, but not Canadians. Can you clarify? Why can't I own Canadians? e) I have a neighbor who insists on working on the Sabbath. Exodus 35:2 clearly states he should be put to death. Am I morally obligated to kill him myself? f) A friend of mine feels that even though eating shellfish is an abomination (Lev. 11:10), it is a lesser abomination than homosexuality. I don't agree. Can you settle this? g) Lev. 21:20 states that I may not approach the altar of God if I have a defect in my sight. I have to admit that I wear reading glasses. Does my vision have to be 20/20, or is there some wiggle room here? h) Most of my male friends get their hair trimmed, including the hair around their temples, even though this is expressly forbidden by Lev.19:27. How should they die? i) I know from Lev. 11:6-8 that touching the skin of a dead pig makes me unclean, but may I still play football if I wear gloves? j) My uncle has a farm. He violates Lev. 19:19 by planting two different crops in the same field, as does his wife by wearing garments made of two different kinds of thread (cotton/polyester blend). He also tends to curse and blaspheme a lot. Is it really necessary that we go to all the trouble of getting the whole town together to stone them? (Lev. 24:10-16) Couldn't we just burn them to death at a private family affair like we do with people who sleep with their in-laws? (Lev. 20:14) I do look forward to your enlightenment regarding the questions that puzzle me. Then I shall pass them along to others who may appreciate your moral leadership. Sincerely.
4. Number 3
AJB   (03.15.10)
No your not an orthodox zionist if you regurgitate pathetic questions like these.
5. How about Jews for Jesus?
Yoni ,   Tel Aviv   (03.15.10)
What does reform say about recognizing them? Are they a religious stream of Judaism that should be treated fairly and equally? How about marxists? arent they following a jewish movement? What is wrong with you people?
6. delegtimized
sealift ,   fair oaks CA USA   (03.16.10)
G-d allows us to question and grow, The Talmud itself is a series of commentaries and interpretations. Reform and conservative Jews are Jews. Many many revisions evolve from faith and heart, lest we still sacrifice lamb at the alter etc. There is a wide leap between rejection and reform, between dogma and considered change. The reason for avoiding lobster in a warm water region changes as does weightier issues such as the role of the modern woman as capable of judaic leadership. fundamentalism is at the heart of world conflict.
7. Baseless Ortodox stereotypes
Ephraim ,   Budapest, Hungary   (03.16.10)
Nr 2. and Nr. 5 I see you have lots of stereotypes in your mind regarding Reform Judaism probably because in Israel Reform is very young: active since the 70-ies only. You are repeating the same lies and the same nonsense that we can read in different forums each day. So I'm not surprised! FYI Reform Judaism has a 300 years old history, deeply rooted in Diaspora Jewish life. It has the most members in the galut, i.e. Israel must take it into consideration. Reform Judaism OPPOSES the "Jews for Jesus" movement. Even in my synagogue, I remember there was such a Jew, later asked to leave the community because she wanted to preach about Jesus disregarding our believe. So the rabbi asked her in a polite way not to come to the services and to the other synagogue programs again. In Reform Judaism people are allowed to choose themselves whether they want to keep Ortodox rabbinic (!) restrictions or live a more modern life keeping just those fundamentals that are matching with their own spiritual needs. Members are encouraged to keep as much as possible, so me for example I keep Shabat each week, never drive a car, never use fire, and I study Torah and go to the synagogue. I keep kosher and never say blessings over non-kosher wine. This is my business, not yours and not of other Jews from my congregation. In Reform Judaism people are free individuals and not slaves of a religious institution. The main thing is to catch the beauty of Judaism and to learn. This is a never ending process and the sense of Jewish life. Of course, there are things important to Reform Jews which may be significantly different than in Ortodoxy. Regarding Shulchan Aruch... We have our own Refom Jewish halacha, why should be follow the Ortodox one? Shulchan Aruch contains lots of ancien laws overrun by history and modern life. Reform Halacha is based on the old Ortodox one and the basics are the same but we cannot and do not want to keep laws that contradict democratic and human values. We don't accept the exclusion of women from Jewish religious practice. They are welcome to makie aliya to the Torah and pray together with men because Torah belongs to the entire Jewish People, including women! Reform says that the Torah is the holiest heritage of the Jewish People, it has central place in our life but it was written down by humans, and some of its parts were composed in different times (like D'varim). Torah is based on divine inspiration, i.e. we do respect it like all the other Jews do. Instead of cursing us, you should learn more about the Reform Movement. Generally speaking, in the US Reform is more liberal than in Europe where it is closer to Masorti. So your stereotypes are baseless!
8. How about marxists? arent they following a jewish movement?
RK ,   Eilat, Israel   (03.16.10)
Funny. I don't recall any stories about the Nazis distinguishing between Jews before they killed them. Only HaShem can make these distinctions, not the corrupt, idolaters that are commonly labeled Orthodox.
9. Conversions
DW ,   US   (03.16.10)
I am against making people totally miserable in order to convert, but I am against too easy (and Reform) conversions too. Some Reform rabbis require only a 6 lesson course in order for a person to convert. I know many Reform converts, and they observe nothing: no kashrut, no Shabbat, almost no holidays, etc, etc. Many even still have Xmas trees. So why convert at all? Just to get married? These conversions are a farce and I am against them.
10. Not halachically Jewish
Dina ,   NJ   (03.16.10)
I know of several Reform "temples" in the US where a good percentage of the members are not halachically Jewish.
11. Sort this out once and for all!
Dan ,   Manchester, UK   (03.16.10)
I'm not a big fan of the law at all. I plan on converting (not for anyone else, just for the religion), but I now don't have the option of converting in Israel, like I wanted to, and most likely not have the option of converting reform, if it is unlikely to be recognised. Unless the government recognises the fact that conversions and other streams of Judaism besides Orthodox are legitimate, the Jewish population is going to shrink to a few thousands ultraOrthodox, and a lot of unhappy Israelis with no real reason for citizenship!
12. To # 4
Ariel ,   São Paulo - Brazil   (03.16.10)
No question is pathetic , if you have the answer. And if you do not have the answer then TZE ULMAD
13. #3 Ariel
Ezra ,   Canada   (03.16.10)
It seems the level of religious education in brazilian Bnei Akiva is close to nil...
14. Comes Down To Pride
Jew ,   Tel Aviv, Israel   (03.16.10)
While we are locked in a mortal battle with numerous enemies over the land of our forefathers, does it help our cause by letting anyone who says, "hey, I want to be Jewish" claim a birthright here?!? I know our religion says to accept converts, but there should be strict guidelines-or else we really will be lying when we claim our ancestors were the original Israelites.
15. Proper Conversion
moriah ,   sacramento, usa   (03.17.10)
There has to be a price paid, an effort taken and committment made when one takes on the yoke of heaven. It's realizing that once you convert you will forever keep the sabbath. Must realize G-d is not a man and does not change His mind or His laws. There are rules on what foods we can eat and clothing we wear. We cannot look at Halachah and cherry pick what laws we want to keep. Therefore, the only conversion that is acceptable is an Orthodox Conversion or why bother? If you're already Jewish is one thing but if you CHOOSE to be a Jew theres is only one path. Otherwise I don't see the point.
16. One Great Grandparent, Was Enough Guys
Dav Lev ,   Burbank. CALIF   (03.17.10)
To My Orthodox Jewish Friends: who is kidding whom? Except for the Torah Jews, most Jews are intermarrying or assimilating to a fault. We lose 35,000 year according to surveys. With 2 plus million Reform Jews in the USA, I mean get real. We Jews will not survive our enemie (within and without) if we are too selection. The difference: we have a concept of what G-d is not., unlike the goyim whose G-d (and son of G-d) allowed himself to be crucified to come back 2,000 years later and save the people who killed him to begin with. Knowing G-d..is an individual's concept of what G-d is NOT, or who represents him on Earth (Mohammad). G-d is far too complex to understand..no one does. We explain him (her) in human terms for convenience. Yet, the Arab have defined who WE are for the final Jihad. Get it! Lets not quibble over small things. Someone wants to be a Jew, okay, so don't follow the 613, no one does.
17. To Ariel: We Are Imploding From Within
Dav Lev ,   Burbank. CAUSA   (03.17.10)
To Ariel: this is exactly why constantly, I am beseiged by Christians who want to convert me to Jesus and thus be saved from my sins (what sins?). They say our religion is outdates, pre-historic, of no meaning..especially considering faith and not deeds are relevant. A local Reform female rabbi was against Prop 8 ( same sex legislative). Rabbis are for abortion if the mother wants (yet we are losing 35,000 year per surveys). Israel is forbidding non-Orthodox conversions, while gentiles are in their army (cannot be buried with Jews). I read Etz Hayim..but have advised to obey the Torah as written, no commentary. Sure, give me a break. But Iranian nukes won't discriminate..we are all Jews to Ahmad..
18. Which Orthodox conversion?
Norman Gellman ,   Rehovot   (03.17.10)
What a farce! We have orthodox vs. orthodox with the annulment of conversions performed by an orthodox rabbinical court. Whose values should we follow? Conversion over the centuries since Ruth the Moabite’s conversion has been modified, new requirements added, made more difficult. The movement toward Theocracy in Israel marches on with surprising support from The “Israel is our Home” party who should be opposed to only ultra orthodox conversions. The Nazis made it clear anyone with any Jewish name or family member no matter how remote or anyone practicing any form of Judaism is Jewish. We need to unite not find ways to keep ourselves dispersed.
19. open breaking of Halacha by government
wl edwards ,   dallas tx usa   (03.18.10)
The open breaking of Halacha by these ultra what ever they call themselves and politicians is a disgrace to all of Judaism. When one converts to Judaism he or she is considered just as much a Jew as if he or she were born Jewish and these wicked attempts to decide for G-d who can and cannot be allowed will bring down this regime. Israel again will be lost until the righteous of Ha-Shem return.
20. the truth
wledwards ,   dallas tx usa   (03.18.10)
Look idiots, gays, and all the rest of you argumentative fools... G-d's law never changes unless Ha-Shem personally changes it. Rabbinical law, on the other hand, is supposed to (adapt) change or bend with society. As society grows and becomes more "aware" rabbinical decree is supposed to reflect that. That was the intent of having Aaron work out the details from the Law handed down to Moshe. It is true many rabbis are too power hungry to want for change and many more are disreputable and immoral to the point of utter disgust, but there are still many very good honorable rabbis and many good Jews too. We are supposed to reflect on the Laws Ha-Shem gave us and use common sense combined with sound study from all of our sources to arrive at honest and honorable solutions. We don't do sacrifices any more. Does anyone in the audience know why? As far as conversion goes it should be either Traditional or Orthodox to insure a good solid Jewish understanding prior to conversion. We already have enough Hebrew born into the world of Judaism who have turned their backs on it. I also know many a Ger who honor Judaism with all their hearts and minds. You people need to stop with your wickedness and get down to the business of being a light to the world as Ha-Shem has decreed. Grow up! Get ready for Pesach and may Ha-Shem bless you with peace, understanding, and tolerance.
21. uh lobster in warm water #6?
will edwards ,   dallas tx usa   (03.18.10)
The reason I reject lobster regardless of the water is because it isn't kosher. It's shellfish dude. Other then that I find most of your argument sound. As far as changes in Judaism go though I remain adamant only rabbinical decrees can be altered. We cannot change G-d's laws. We must learn how to keep them better. In that way we learn the scope of rabbinical change and social movement because we keep Ha-Shem's framework intact.
22. totally agree
Tania ,   Tel Aviv Israel   (03.18.10)
there re so many people that with the interest of staying in our country convert to Judaims and became part of our society without even understand and share our real identity...i do not want this fool people living in my country, and called themselves something they are not...
23. As a liberal Israeli, I must say: I'll have more respect for
Jehudah Ben-Israel ,   Qatzrin, Israel   (03.19.10)
Reform Jews overseas if I could communicate with them in our national language of Hebrew, if I could share with them my love for Erettz Israel (Land of Israel) and 'am israel (the People of Israel). If I could have a common understanding with them the importance of Hebrew/Israeli/Jewish history and civilization on all its aspects. But not only can't I find much common ground with the rank and file Reformists; I can hardly do so with their Rabbis, many of whom I have met in person. Thus, my question to them is: On what basis do you come to Israelis with demands while you refuse to live here, to contribute to the living fabric of Israeli society, to Israel's defense and economic well being? Contributing money, having lox and bagles and saring "next year in Jerusalem" is simply not enough. It is not enough!
24. #23 your ground is also shakey
will edwards ,   dallas tx usa   (03.20.10)
Sir, Apparently you are more a nationalist then an observant Jew and as such how can you call the kettle black? I also think the reformists give away too much of Judaism and fail to follow the edicts of Ha-Shem, but in a nationalistic sense they are still just as much a Jew as you are. The Jew is still in diaspora and the trouble in Israel is full of bigotry, hate, violence, and the cold hearted atheistic influence of the Russian Jew throughout the entire political process. I would love nothing more then to come home to Israel, but not as it is today. I would be arrested for being observant while crazed ultra weirdos attack women and spit on Christians. Tell me... what are you trying to say really?
25. delegitimize re #2
sealift67 ,   fair oaks CA USA   (04.04.10)
Judaism is not a static dogma. much has been derived from interpretation. much has changed. we no longer sacrifice animals at the altar, allow stonings and so on. I am not better than a goy. Born a Jew as myself or a convert there is a common thread but also a right to differ. Most Israelis are secular. By your definition Reuven several million would be 'severed' from your rigidly orthodox priestly church. you write as a rigid, hierarchal. you and your spouse could not sit by each others' side on a bus, absurd, yes.
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