Opinion
The mess of our making
Arlene Kushner
Published: 11.05.10, 00:42
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31. Deportation is the only option
Sarah B ,   U.S.A. / Israel   (05.11.10)
They should, and will, be compensated, but they have to leave. The aggressive posturing by the PA has gone too far. Now they are proclaiming that they will have a state with Jerusalem -- not East Jerusalem, mind you: Jerusalem -- as its capital. That is nothing short than a declaration of war. Besides, King Hussein extended Jordanian citizenship to all West Bankers AND THEIR PROGENY in 1950. They're Jordanian. Let them go there. It's not like there isn't precedent. Look what happened to the Jews living in Arab and Moslem lands; nearly one million following Israel's victory in the War of Independence and then another 300,000 following Israel's victory in the Six Day War. At least Israel will compensate the deportees and allow them to take their property, sell their homes, whatever. But they must go. Judea and Samaria must be annexed. Following that, we will do the same with Gaza. Egypt has been itching for Israel to go back into Gaza. We'll give them that much. But they have to take all the people living in Gaza who are, after all, Egyptian citizens, thanks to Nasser's fiat in 1964. Then, we'll have a little peace and quiet.
32. All Israelis should read this article
Yona ,   Tel Aviv   (05.11.10)
We must be reminded of what reality is in this region and prepare ourselves for what we must do if we aren't going to ride this train to our destruction any further.
33. Another set of crackpot ideas
Mikesailor ,   Miami, FL   (05.11.10)
I am amazed at the utter lack of critical thinking in Israel. Instead of the problem being Israeli actions and their ensuing consequences, the problem is now those 'crafty Arabs' and their unbelievably powerful PR. First of all, San Remo suffered from the same curious malady that infected Balfour: an utter lack of legitimacy. It is difficult to understand how a treaty can give legitimate rights to one group of people without any input from those affected. In Balfour, Britain did not own Palestine and had no right to grant any status to a group that did not have any legal right to the area without taking into account the rights of the indigenous inhabitants. San Remo suffered from the same arrogance. Both should be rightly consigned to the 'dustbin of history', although no matter how bad the original idea was, the world is stuck with the consequences. Now, you wind up with a differeent set of problems. Advocating the transfer of a civilian indigenous population to ensure a homogenous ethicity reeks of the same theories of racial superiority and eugenics which led to WWII. Apartheid is a dead letter, also. The Palestinians will demand 'one man, one vote' and Israel will disappear as a 'Jewish' state. Advocating more sustained violence against your neighbors is also a remarkably dumb idea. Do you actually think that Jordan, Lebanon, Syria, Egypt or any other country will idly stand by for a massive influx of refugees? Your own actions, not a 'world wide conspiracy' are at the heart of the difficulties you now face. The easy way is to believe that only more of the same will bring you out of this mess. More bombing, more killing, more force and everything will be fine. The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over expecting a different result.. It seems like such 'insanity' is contagious in Israel.
34. You progressives do rage & brood, #33
Cameron ,   USA   (05.11.10)
Amazing what that "utter lack of critical thinking" has led to. Amid the Arab howling & wars aimed at Israel's destruction, they've managed to construct the ME's pre-eminent economic & military dynamo. They have done exceedingly well for themselves against a setting of Arab pathology & mediocrity. Keep scowling & sniveling, nauticalMike.
35. How we got in this mess
Joe K ,   Silicon Valley, CA   (05.11.10)
People seem to forget how Peres dismantled the hasbarah apparatus claiming that good policy doesn't need hasbara. Well, look at where that got us. We have forfeited the fight, now requiring too many explanations to counter the big lies of our arab and antisemetic enemies. Way to Go Shimon!!!! One step forward and several banana steps back. And they still invite you to forums all over the place, as if you are someone to be listened too. What ever happened to your New Middle East? Time to sound the Great Gong and drag this guy offstage.
36. To: No. 33
Sarah B ,   U.S.A. / Israel   (05.11.10)
You are correct in one regard. Our own actions -- actually, lack thereof -- are at the heart of the difficulties Israel now faces. We should have deported them all in 1967. Also -- you might want to curb your smug attitude. Have you any idea how many tens of millions of people were displaced, or had their nationalities changed, following World War I? When Istria was gifted to Yugoslavia following Italy's defeat in the Second World War, do you know how many people became refugees and underwent forced deportation? What about Africa? Two-thirds of the African continent are displaced refugees (which no one seems to care about). How many people were forced to leave India for Pakistan? You are such a hypocrite. All you care about is venting your anti-Israel and anti-Semitic sentiments. Has it ever occurred to you that the State of Israel is a one-off; populated by a people who have arguably contributed more to the world than any group of similar size? (These days, there are about 13.5 million Jews in the world). We have bequeathed to the world Abraham, Moses, Jesus, Spinoza, Marx, and Einstein, to name but a scant handful. I think our identity is worth preserving. Then again, I am the child of Jewish concentration camp survivors. Don't expect me to feel any differently about the need to preserve Israel's identity as a Jewish state, at any and all costs.
37. To: No. 33, redux
Sarah B ,   U.S.A. / Israel   (05.11.10)
I was remiss in failing to point out to you that nearly one million Jews were forced from their homes in Moslem and Arab lands in 1948; 300,000 more were turned out in 1967. They arrived in Israel as penniless refugees. Equally penniless were the survivors of the death camps in Europe who came to Israel. Israel took them in. It is not the fault of Israel that 22 Arab states have for over sixty years refused to make a home for their Palestinian brethren. Speaks volumes about the Arabs, doesn't it? Except we won't turn them out penniless, and they have some place to go. Their property will not be confiscated; they will receive due and just compensation. We're not Arabs or Moslems, for pity's sake. We will not do to them what they did to us.
38. #36 Do not concern yourself with my clone, whining is her
Mikesailor ,   Miami, FL   (05.11.10)
daily breakfast. She has no other life.
39. To: No. 38
Sarah B ,   U.S.A. / Israel   (05.11.10)
I was merely asserting fact and citing to the record. You are the one doing all the whining. Quite arrogant and inappropriate of you to make any assumptions about my life, too. You shouldn't project the nature of your own miserable existence onto me. Tacky, really.
40. Mikesailor wrong again
i ,   jerusalem   (05.11.10)
Apartheid is alive and well, this is the Middle East. There were long established, and wealthy industrious Jewish communities throughout the Levant many predating the Arabs by a thousand or more years. They were all dispossessed and kicked out by the Arab govt or the Arab mobs. There are no Jews in Lebanon or Jordan. There are no Jews in Saudiland unless they are attached to the the US protection racketeers serving in dhimmitude. The Copts, the native residents of Egypt are a hounded remnant, as are the followers of Jesus in Bethlehem, and Rammalah. Why do you regard ethnic cleansing by the Arabs as some glamourous nobility but Apartheid as the worlds worst ill? Hmmm? Got issues with Jews, perhaps?
41. # 39
Palestinian   (05.11.10)
Mikesailor is very right, Whining is your daily breakfast and dinner also. Sarah, Balfour, Britain didn't own Palestine? and had no right to grant any status to a group that did not have any legal right? to area without taking into account the rights of the indigenous inhabitants? Why don't you Whine that there were no inhabitants and the land totally empty and there was no such Haganah, Irgun or Stern?
42. Mikesailor, What is good for the goose for the gander
E.   (05.11.10)
You want to invalidate San Remo. Syria was created at the same conference as a quid pro quo. Almost all Arab states are products of colonialist states. The Arab representative at the Paris Peace Conference excluded Palestine from Arab demands. Palestinians had no distinctive identity at the time and Palestine was already partitioned to create Transjordan partially as an escape valve for those Arabs not wanting to live in the Jewish national home. The Arabs west of the Jordan did not lift a finger against the imperialist Turks to liberate themselves. The Jews are an indigenous people as proved by genetic tests among both Ashkenazi and Sephardic "Cohenim" [we are genetically similar to the Samaritans who never left Palestine]. Apartheid is what is practiced in the Arab world which is practically judenrein today though Jews had been living in Iraq for thousands of years. And if supporting indigenous rights is what you desire, you should throw out the stinking monarchs and potentates that are keeping you down.
43. Mikesailor 33
Christina ,   Jackson, MS   (05.11.10)
If he definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over expecting a different result, then the Arabs must all be insane. They keep going to war against Israel, and they keep losing. Isn't it better for the US to distance itself from those insane Arabs?
44. These aren't 67 lines, they are 1949 lines
you should correct ,   this in the article   (05.11.10)
The 67 lines include the Sinai.
45. To: No. 41
Sarah B ,   U.S.A. / Israel   (05.12.10)
1. You are not indigenous to Palestine. You are indigenous to the Hejaz in Western Arabia. Did you know that prior to Israel's statehood, whenever anyone said "Palestinian," they referred to the Jews. The Arabs -- whether Christian or Moslem -- were always just known as "Arabs." Witness the all-Jewish "Palestine Brigade" that fought as part of the British Expeditionary Forces during World War II. 2. The First and Second Aliyah took place while the Ottoman Turks controlled Palestine. What few Arabs lived there were mostly tenant farmers for absentee Turkish owners. When the Jews purchased the land from the Ottomans, they acquired the right to throw out any squatters. The Arabs had no right, title or claim to land upon which they were squatters. 3. You are not far off the mark -- Mark Twain wrote a very famous essay called "Palestine Sits in Sackcloth and Ashes" in which he describes precisely how bereft, barren, uninhabited and uninhabitable Palestine was. It was not until the Jews came and cleared the swamps, painstakingly restored the barren land to fecundity and pushed back the desert did the Arabs decide to reinvent their history. And you have repeated those lies for so long, you have come to believe them as true. Pitiful, really. 4. There was a Haganah, an Irgun and a Stern. There were also roving bands of murderous Arabs who would attack and plunder Jewish settlements, there were riots in Hebron in which many Jews were killed, there was Haj Amin al-Husseini -- a Nazi collaborator -- and there were the murderous villagers of Deir Yassin and some others who were responsible for the deaths of over 500 Jews when convoys attempted to relieve the siege of Jerusalem. Your point? 5. The Arabs have had no fewer than three opportunities to agree to a two-state solution and have rejected all three, including one which would have awarded them 95% of the West Bank and East Jerusalem as a capital. They want the whole thing, and that is just not going to happen. 6. You are pathetic, mealy-mouthed whiners. You miss every opportunity to make a positive change, opt to go to war, opt to resort to vile terror on a global scale, and when that doesn't work, you sit there, cry and whine, and wait for the world to come and fix everything for you. Instead of whining all the time, you need to learn to take ownership of your extremely bad choices and extremely vile behavior. You also need to learn that you cannot put toothpaste back into the tube. Some mistakes are forever, ya'habibi. Deal with it and stop whining.
46. # 43 It is a matter of time
Palestinian   (05.12.10)
US keep giving tax $$$, political and diplomatic cover in the UN ?and everywhere else. They are never grateful this is what they are. US is very broke and bankrupt, why give money to Israel? you need the money
47. To: No. 46
Sarah B ,   U.S.A. / Israel   (05.12.10)
The Palestine Authority is the single largest recipient of United States foreign aid, closely followed by Egypt, Jordan and some former Soviet republics. The Palestine Authority is also the single largest recipient of European Union foreign aid. What does the PA have to show for it? I will tell you. Extremely corrupt leadership who have used the funds -- intended to maintain infrastructure, build hospitals and universities, attract foreign investment and provide seed money in loans to small businesses -- to purchase extremely lavish second and even third homes in Europe and pad some very hefty offshore bank accounts. Palestine will never be a state. Which of the thirty-odd organizations each purporting to be the sole true representatives of the Palestinian people actually do represent the Palestinian people? Scorpions in a bottle -- you spend more time fighting each other than you do trying to build a vibrant economy. While Israel sits back and watches you implode, each and every time. Can someone pass the popcorn?
48. The mess predates the state
jerri i ,   NYC USA   (05.12.10)
A problem that influences modern leftist intellectual thinking goes back to the historical accounts of 19th and early twentieth century judaic historians. Example: the Golden age of Spain is a myth endowing Islam with early favarable attitudes toward Jews. The Koran explicitly denounces the Jews as the greatest enemy of Mohamad with him calling for the death and enslavement of all Jews who do not follow him via conversion. Every Islamic kingdom followed this practice though in most of them there was always short periods of tolerence of Jews as dhimi minorities. It is not surprising that Ahmadinijad denies our holocaust as 18th and 19th century Iran produced law documents on how Jews are to be treated that look remarkably like the Nuremberg laws. These documents were produced by Iranian rulers who were strict Islamists. Unfortunately the political class of Israel does not know or understand this and tries to treat with the Arabs as if they are Europeans.
49. #37..They did nothing to you!
Edithann ,   USA   (05.12.10)
You believe you're own propaganda.. The rest of the world remembers Israeli False Flags that jeopardized Arab Jews forcing them to leave their homes and run to Israel.. Israeli terrorists were blowing up all of the Middle East..all according to plan....Israel needed bodies..there weren't enough Eastern Jews to populate the land and they wanted a Jewish state..and they needed all Arab Jews...But you never got the Iranian Jew..and you still don't! And now Israel is threatening the American Jew the same way..jeopardizing their standings and making life uncomfortable for the Diaspora.. You people just don't ever learn..and you believe you're own lies.... TATA
50. ......................
maha   (05.12.10)
we live the history then we write it .... this author wants the opposit ... the most funny is ... jordan had thrown evry jew from east herusalem .... befor 49 it was palastine under the britin rule .palastine had no army ..they were persons only against the immigration of jews in masses to their land ... we live the history then we write it
51. # 47
Palestinian   (05.12.10)
*2011* Palestine is Free, I will invite you for Ice Cream in the beach / Mediterranean Sea.
52. To: No. 49
Sarah B ,   U.S.A. / Israel   (05.12.10)
Read it and weep, Edithann: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_exodus_from_Arab_lands By the way, there is no such thing as an Arab Jew. Thanks for putting your ignorance on display for all to see. Israel isn't threatening the American Jew. More ignorance on your part, and you are not Jewish and are in no position to speak for or on behalf of any Jewish community, whether in Israel or in the Diaspora. On the other hand, I -- an American Jew -- can tell you that support for Israel among American Jews is growing stronger and stronger with each passing day that the Obama administration remains in office. I cannot tell you how many Jews I know who voted for Obama regret their decision. Nothing like hardship to bring the Jewish community together. Hussein Obama is doing more for us than he realizes. People like you just lack the intellect to understand Jews. Ta Ta. You might want to work on your spelling, grammar, syntax and usage, dear. Your ignorance is on display there, too.
53. To: No. 50
Sarah B ,   U.S.A. / Israel   (05.12.10)
Haj Amin al-Husseini put together several units of armed criminals whose job it was to harass and terrorize Jews -- particularly the elderly and unarmed residents of Hebron and Jerusalem. Kawkji's irregulars were all Palestinians, and they were a murderous bunch of thugs and criminals posing as an army. General John Glubb trained several battalions of Palestinians that later became the Jordan Legion. It was called Palestine long before the British assumed control, but the Palestinians were the Jewish inhabitants of the region, not the Arabs. The Palestine Brigade, for example, who fought with the British during World War II, was exclusively composed of Jewish soldiers. The Arabs were always just called "Arabs." Get your facts straight. "Live the history," indeed. You make things up as you go along.
54. The mess
debbie ,   israel   (05.12.10)
TO SARAH B., You refer to mikesailor as a Palestianian? Do you know if he is? Do you know who he is? I'm sick and tired of his anti semitic anti Israel ravings throughout ynet. He is a total ignoramus and enjoys twisting history to suit his false preposterous claims. Thanks for taking him on. Your posts are well written.
55. Delusions
Canadian-SouthAfrica ,   Toronto, Canada   (05.12.10)
45 years ago I met many Jewish students in my class in Johannesburg. I considered Jewish people to be smart and champions for human rights. How wrong was I! Has the Talmudic teaching made majority of Jews delusional? Wake up and join common humanity and stop being crybabies. Mankind is evolving into not DNA based identities and Zionism is out of touch with reality.
56. Kushner doesn't know international law
John R ,   NYC USA   (05.12.10)
Ms. Kushner does an interesting but factually incorrect reading of international law. The Sanremo conference expresses the intent of the great powers after WWI to form a Jewish State but does not provide its exact geographic coordinates. When the Palestinian Mandate was formed (like all mandates of the era) it had as its purpose to be divided into countries predicated on two sets of facts, demographics and presence of political institutions to transfer power to. In 1922 the Jewish population between the Jordon river and the Mediteranean sea was 11% per the British census. In Nov 1947 when the UN approved UNGAR 181 the Jewish population in the land it was given (and agreed to by Israel) had a 55% Jewish population (although the land between the Jordon and Mediteranian Sea was only about 1/3 Jewish). Ms Kushner's concept of annexation of the West Bank would have been a clear violation of resolution 242 (preamble)and the UN Charter and the Kellogg Briand treaty and the Geneva Convention. Not a single country in the world recognizes Israel's annexation of Jerusalem or the Golan. The World Court already adjudicated these issues as well as the illegality of Jewish WB settlements in 2004. Ms Kushner doesn't care about international law and people like her are responsible for Israel's current predicament .
57. For clarification of international law
Marcella   (05.12.10)
please visit the Justice Now For Israel website (Office for Israeli Constitutional Law). Attorney Howard Grief explains in an easy to understand "Frequently Asked Questions" format how the territories are legally Israeli land - as per international law.
58. To: Debbie at No. 54 - Second Attempt
Sarah B ,   U.S.A. / Israel   (05.12.10)
Actually, I never said that Mikesailor is a Palestinian. He is just a common garden-variety, low-class, low-income, barely-educated Jew-hater. You will have noticed, I trust, that he NEVER responds to the talkbackers that challenge him substantively. That's because he cannot. I don't know his story. I don't really care. Perhaps his mother was a housekeeper who was fired by her Jewish employers for theft. Perhaps his father was fired by his Jewish employers for being drunk on the job every day. What difference does it make? Mikesailor is irrelevant. I don't pay much attention to him at all, except to shoot down all his specious arguments. You will have noticed, Debbie, that he never, ever comes back in response to anyone that serves him a dish of the truth. What does that tell you? To me, it speaks volumes.
59. To: No. 55
Sarah B ,   U.S.A. / Israel   (05.13.10)
Jews are still champions for human rights. The problem is, you see, we've run smack dab against terrorist scum who send suicide bombers, kidnap soldiers, fire missiles into traumatized civilian populations and threaten Jews with extinction. Safely ensconced in Toronto, you fear nothing. The average Israeli has to contend with murderers, assassins, terrorists and suicide bombers. What would you have us do? Lay down and die? Not going to happen. Not in this lifetime, or any other lifetime. Get used to the idea. Israel is here to stay. NO MATTER WHAT. By the way -- while we're on the topic -- we all know what the Jews have contributed to humankind. Can you name a single Palestinian contribution -- terrorism doesn't count. I'm waiting. Please "enlighten" me.
60. Hey Sarah, calm down..you're getting nowhere...
(05.13.10)
You're running in circles..No one is taking your solutions seriously...you're insane! When you have to attack personally, it means you've lost the argument.. . There is no future for Israel and it's Zionist nightmare.. You will eventually have to accept that as fact! Palestinians aren't going anywhere at all!..They're home and will stay there in One State, Two States, what the hell ever..but they're not leaving..and Israel can't do anything about it anymore. Israeli's legitimatization is on the line..or haven't you heard? You terrible people, thought you could steal peoples homes right out from under them, and get away with it forever. How stupid could you have been, thinking the colossal theft of the 20th century would last? Didn't you realize that such a crime would eventually have to be addressed? . Jews like you, will be going back to the US. It's the only place you've ever lived for any length of time, without being kicked out! Now why should the Palestinians give their homes and lands to the Jews without one big hell of a fight? TATA
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