Opinion
Israel’s fateful withdrawal
Gabriel Siboni
Published: 01.07.10, 00:44
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22 Talkbacks for this article
1. To Israel: Become ProActive Or Hang
Dav Lev ,   Burbank. CAUsA   (07.01.10)
Israel had Hamas and Hezbollah on the ropes. They were taking an awful beating, until that is, the UNs admonitions forced the timid Israeli govt to cease fires. What if, Hez and/or Hamas had been dealt the death blow? What if they were forced to surrender with Hamas replaced by Abbas (Fatah?). Israel pd a hefty price to remain in Lebanon for 20 yrs. and gave in to criticism. Barak says openly he does not regret Israel's withdrawals. Perhaps. But sooner or later, Israel will have to become pro-active..take out their missile sites and deal the death blow to their goals. Iran complicates matters..however with the potential of several nukes, fitted on Shahabs, etc. No easy answers folks.
2. Barak has to be fired Dr. before your wish is granted.
Claudia ,   Tampa, USA   (07.01.10)
As long as that pompus idiot manages to dominate Israeli politics nothing offensive will occur, and Barak will continue to back Israel into a corner. He only knows appeasement and treachery, and his own ego, just ask the Lebanese Christians and Army. So now Hezbollah is stronger than ever before and Syria is licking it's chops over the Golan again. If I were in control Barak would be banished from the kingdom or living in Kirya Shemona waiting for the next terror attack. He is just wrong about EVERYTHING!
3. Israel should retake ALL our abandoned lands.
Chaim ,   Israel   (07.01.10)
Every single Israeli withdrawal is an unmitigated disaster. As the author notes, our withdrawal from Lebanon brought about an era of Israeli weakness and defensiveness. The strong, determined Israel that was widely respected by friends and foes alike was replaced by a pathetic, grovelling appeasing Israel. Not surprisingly, the world's respect was replaced by revulsion. Nobody respects those who don't respect themselves. Israel must reverse the sick policy of appeasement. Israel should retake ALL our abandoned lands forever.
4. Interesting overview, except does not name those
AK   (07.01.10)
advocating and responsible for the various policy shifts. It is sort of hanging out there as a generic 'Israeli government.' Who were the decisionmakers then and what position are they holding now? Too much of the passive voice. Dry assessment of the situation, but can it change anything? After all it is Barak who seems to be the architect of the presenyt day policies, military and foreign.
5. The failures in the Lebanon war..
Ron B. ,   Lod   (07.01.10)
The war’s main failure was one of the political and military leaderships : a failure by Olmert, (then Defense Minister) Amir Peretz and Halutz. The decision to go to war was the right one, but the problem was that the goals were never set. It was a case-in-point of spineless politicians’ ability to cause great harm by making ill-advised decisions. With a competent leadership the results of the Lebanon war would have been very different. There will be no real peace in Lebanon until Hezbollah is disarmed or destroyed. And the next war may be disastrous for Lebanon. More about Hezbollah at : http://xrl.us/bkivy
6. Withdrawal complex
Mark ,   USA   (07.01.10)
Israel withdrew from from Lebanon in 2000. What did she get? Thousands of missiles from Hizbullah, an Iranian satellite, and a situation that is a tinderbox. Israel withdrew from Gaza in 2005. What did she get? Thousands of missiles from Hamas, an Iranian satellite, and a situation that is a tinderbox. See where I am going with this? Unless the situation on the ground is ripe for peace, Israel cannot, and should not withdraw from territory that is needed as a buffer.
7. Dr. Strangelove
Michael ,   Haifa   (07.01.10)
The eminent Doctor is apparently unaware of the fact that we don't live in a vacuum, but that we live in a real world with real interactions with other nations on whom we are dependent to varying degrees. He is also apparently unaware of the fact that countries, with a long history of conflict between them, have succeeded in achieving peace between themselves.
8. betrayed our allies for what exactly?
ronen   (07.01.10)
9. but what was the alternative?
mike ,   israel (formerly usa   (07.01.10)
israel was sustaining dead soldiers about once every 2-3 weeks. if there was no withdrawal from lebanon in 2000, at that rate (assuming there were no large battles/wars) that would have been over 200 dead soldiers since then (and who knows how many more kidnapped). as i remember at the time the israeli public was fed up with the loss of life as a result of occupying lebanon. you're telling me if barak didn't withdraw it'd still be going on today and the public would be ok with it? the argument that staying in lebanon was a better alternative than getting out is hard to understand, unless you forget the past, that is.
10. #9 put it in perspective
Israel Israeli ,   Tel Aviv   (07.01.10)
You are saying that Israel lost 25 soldiers a year. Israel actually lost under 20 soldiers per year. In either case, this is not so much compared to the 400 dead a year in traffic accidents. In exchange, Israeli civilians were safe, Israel had a strong ally in the North giving hope for the future, and Lebanon was a more or less normal country. Thanks to Barak's stupidity, we lost any chance of gaining allies in the Arab world, put all of Northern Israel (including Haifa and refineries under threat of attack) and allowed Israeli soldiers to be kidnapped. Only in Lebanon II, Israel lost 165, equal to 8 years of "occupation". Currently, Israel is under a real strategic threat from Lebanon and in the next war experts expect massive civilian deaths thanks to Barak's Hezbolla rockets.
11. Dr Siboni's excellent article
RayS ,   USA   (07.01.10)
Dr. Siboni has it exactly correct. The withdrawal from Lebanon, abandoning our SLA friends , created the threat now so powerful on the North. The repeat in Gaza gave us Hamas in strength , loss of world support and increased Iranian influence on the borders.
12. 10 - false comparison
mike ,   israel (formerly usa   (07.01.10)
though you could even say the deaths from cancer per year are greater, people today are still quasi-apathetic about the road fatalities. in the years before the withdrawal there was real outrage and anger. and like fatalities in lebanon, anger was also increasing by the week. remember? and do you really think hezbullah would have their same small katyushas as they had then? that moment in time of withdrawal would not have remained frozen as you imply. the chance of war with the withdrawal actually decreased since it allowed syria to have to withdraw from lebanon. imagine the wars that would have happened with syria still there and also in lebanon. and on the contrary, by standing up to hezbullah israel has a better standing among sunnis as a result of the last 10 years (unofficially, of course, but verified by insiders). and israel's constant hammering by its allies over the lebanese occupation has disappeared. do you think israel would have had the quiet support to continue the last war with lebanon by both its allies AND sunni states like it had? things have changed dramatically as a result of the withdrawal in that actions against hezbullah are allowed with much less condemnation (which, in this part of the world, is a form of acceptance). like i said, staying in lebanon and withdrawing were both two terrible choices, but israeli society wasn't able to handle remaining there and morale of the armed forces fighting there was abysmal. anyone with a memory that is honest knows that.
13. i was a child
hayat   (07.01.10)
i knew that israil enter to south becouse of the palastinian soldiers -plo- but these palastinians were deviated to tunesia .. israil stay for 20 years before hizballa can pressure them to be out so evry step had a former one you can not cut the event from its history ... my mother used to teach us - - do not say if i do not do it it would be this or that ..sometimes this if open the hell door .....
14. Garbage in...garbage out
Mikesailor ,   Miami, FL   (07.01.10)
This is truly a harebrained analysis. First of all, Hesbollah didn't exist until the Israeli invasion of Lebanon. Therefore, a direct consequence of the insane Israeli plan to subjugate Lebanon with the assistance of Bashir Gemayel and his Phalangist militia was the formation of a force in Lebanon, seen by the Lebanese, as a defense force protecting Lebanon from further Israeli depredations. Therefore, the question must be faced, why would a longer occupation of Lebanese territory lead to a better strategic position for Israel? As to Gaza, the author again resorts to ommitting certain key facts. During the ceasefire, rocket attacks from Gaza virtually ceased. If you doon't believe this, look at the IDF graphs of rocket attacks during this period. The deal between Israel and Hamas however had two components. Hamas would stop the rocket attacks and Israel would lift the blockade. Israel never lifted the blockade and instead, on November 4, 2008 violated the ceasefire by killing Gazans. Thereafter, the rockets resumed. Although Hamas offered to reinstate the ceasefire, upon the same conditions that Israel had refused to comply with before, Israel refused and instead launched 'Cast Lead'. So, the question must be asked again. did the actions of Israel using military force and occupying Gaza lead to a better strategic position for Israel? In order to sell a failed policy to a frightened public. you must 'spin' the facts to make your product palatable. The only people who would give this tripe creedence are those whose memories are indeed too short to sustain any reasoning ability.
15. "Garbage in...garbage out", a term coined
Robert Haymond ,   Israel/Ashdod   (07.02.10)
by Fritz Perls of Gestalt Therapy fame about six decades ago and a platitude used by Mikesailor in his opening salvo in hopes that no one would catch him on his usual lack of research and honest reporting of the facts. Well, here the real facts are, as presented: In the six months of "truce" ending in December 2008leading up to Operation Cast Lead (statistics compiled by the Shin Bet), 361 rockets and 303 mortar shells were fired from Gaza into Israel. I have a particularly cogent memory of this "truce", recalling how I had to pick up both granddaughters one evening when the siren blasted its wierd high sound penetrating the air as we were out in the playground behind our apartment building in Ashdod and then running as best I could with both of them to a nearby sheltered area. Those were the days when the whole family slept in one secure room in the apartment so as to avoid the worst effects of the rockets or mortars if and when they hit the building. So when Mikesailor makes his ridiculous statements, remember Fritz Perls: "Garbage in...garbage out."
16. Clear defeat!!
Mamud ,   Lebanon   (07.02.10)
Every one saw how Israel left it's allies in lebanon for death. All what Israelis cared about the safety of their own soldiers. Israel had two options, staying and maintaining the daily deadly attacks by hisbollah, or to withdraw and expose the north to hizbollah, In chess they call zugzwang position, any move will make you lose. Israel did every thing can be done in lebanon, including the occupation of hundreds of villages, killing thousands of people, open tens of wars against lebanese people and all of this didn't grant Israel security. in 2006 Israel needed bombs from USA to cover it's shortage after the massive bombing, as a result every one knows that occupying lebanese territory is impossible, and the cost will be far greater.
17. clinton21@hotmail.co.uk
isumu ,   london   (07.02.10)
Israel should never have totally withdrew from south lebanon,but create a strong defensive shield,put real pressure on the un forces and all the terror groups that roam lebanon.Put up a real augument in the un for it stances,and its aims in south lebanon.Since Isreal withdrew from there,it received the most rocket attacks and 2 major wars,and and the captivity of Gilat shallit and numerous soidiers captured or killed.Israel shouldnt bow down to the world pressure but to retake all her lands and possessions which was giving to her by GOD.But anyway the time is near when Israel will retake the whole of Jerusalem and theTemple Mount,and building the temple for the coming of the Messiah.And no man nor army could stop this,its written.Wait ye and watch,look out.
18. Israel's Defensive Strategies
Edward Anderson ,   Savannah, USA   (07.02.10)
It should have been remembered through the thousands of years of warfare on this planet that a "defensive" posture in a "war" is slow suicide!!! Had Israel had "leaders" instead of "followers" who now take orders from "Barry," the 2nd/ Lebanon War and Operation Cast Lead could have been avoided. Ask Chamberlain how kissing Hitler's butt turned out!!!??? Do what is RIGHT for Israel, not what makes D.C. look good!!!
19. Try again Robert #15
Mikesailor ,   Miami, FL   (07.02.10)
Between the date of the beginning of the Hamas-Israel truce and November 4, 2008, when Israel violated the truce by attacking Gaza, how many missiles and mortars were fired? Look at the IDF statistics during this time. And, during this period of relative calm, did Israel lift the blockade instead of planning 'Cast Lead'? Open your eyes Robert. Or do you believe all the tripe coming out of Israeli government spokesmen? It must be difficult to be so intellectually dishonest.
20. to 18
(07.03.10)
you suggest it must be -iof- instead of -idf...
21. to 17
(07.03.10)
messiah will came when corruption is over and over ..so israil did this corruption .. i think they did not welcoming its presence but he will be here in jerusalem for the peace of all the world .....
22. As I first quoted you, Mike, "Garbage in...
Robert Haymond ,   Israel/Canada   (07.03.10)
garbage out." The number of attacks on Israel from Gaza including both rockets and mortars launched were quoted from Shin Bet statistics. Perhaps you have reading comprehension problems, Mike; or is it that you can't cope with objective facts; or are you just too upset to be identified for what you are or stand for? At any rate, Mike, you'd be better off sulking alone in some little corner of your sailboat than trying to respond so ineffectually.
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