going ballistic to turn seculars into torah observant people? I dont mind what they do on tisha b'av, they live a different life style in everything. I wouldnt want to be forced to be chilonit, so vice versa. Keep them quiet and let them do their thing.No harm done to anyone.

now we have to shul- synagogue ! No Temple very hard ,very hard.....very sad and painful too.. i only began to feel the pain in my 30's , before that i use to ask my self why the Temple I &II has such an impact over the elders of the community. Now I know,now i know :-(

A very thoughtful and intelligent article. Thanks.

Time for secular illiterate Jews to start learning something, for a change.

#1 I think you miss the point of this article. No one is trying to turn seculars into Torah observant Jews. The author was demonstrating the nationalist basis for observing Tisha B'Av. This is a sad day in the calendar of the Jewish People, whether they are secular or Torah observant.

these places should be closed automatically because it is a national day of mourning.

Therefore, Zechariah is discussing the fast of the month of Av after the destruction of the First Temple and before the building of the Second. The First Temple was destroyed on the seventh of Av, as is written, "On the seventh day of the fifth month [Av] -- that was the nineteenth year of King Nebuchadnezzar of Babylon -- Nebuzaradan, the chief of the guards, an officer of the king of Babylon, came to Jerusalem. He burned the House of the Lord, the king's palace, and all the houses of Jerusalem; he burned down the house of every notable person. The entire Chaldean force that was with the chief of the guard tore down the walls of Jerusalem on every side" (II Kings 25:8-10). [This is in contrast to what is written in the Mishnah, that the First Temple was destroyed on the ninth of Av (Taanit 4:6) or what Chazal said (Rosh Hashana 19b), who related Zechariah's verse to the ninth of Av. Thus did Ibn Ezra write (on Zechariah 7:3): "And Jerusalem was destroyed a second time in the days of Titus on the ninth of Av, and we mourn that second destruction." That is, we do not mourn for the First Temple, which was not destroyed on the ninth of Av.] But when there was a change in Israeli reality, from a state of exile to the return to Zion in the Second Temple period, Zechariah says that the fast of "the seventh of Av" will turn to rejoicing and happiness (Zechariah 8:19): "Thus said the Lord of the Hosts…the fast of the fifth month…shall become an occasion for joy and gladness, a happy festival for the House of Judah, but you must love honesty and integrity." And to draw an analogy from minor to major: If the return to Zion, which was a type of autonomy only, requiring the payment of taxes to a foreign government (Persia and Media), turned the mourning into happiness and joy, then how much more so should our return to the Land of Israel in our own days -- where we have absolute sovereignty without foreign sponsorship and we do not have to raise taxes for any other nation or state -- the ninth of Av should turn into a day of rejoicing and happiness.

"The events that took place, according to tradition" So you admit they use tradition not facts to attempt to validate a holiday Moses did not give. (not talking about books written in second person by unknown unvalidated authors) Seems like a never ending stream of excuse-making which is the key give-a-way someone is lying before you even need accuse them. Whether it is the beggining or end of Ramadam, some forbidden by Torah solstice, planetary alignment worship, or some Magi/Jainism ritual, you will find the Rabbis making excuses why we have holidays on such same days. To celebrate or fast on the summer solstice is nothing more than false leaders forcing Jews to violate Torah so that G-d won't protect us? An old Baalam trick and a good explanation why we almost always see the curse of war and hatred in antisemitism directed like a flashlight on our people on these odd days. When the Temple fell, the prophets say they (70 men of temple aka San Hedrin) were doing Magic. Go figure G-d would destroy it on the Pagan holiday solstice they were observing. Tisha BAv IS a bad day. Leave it alone. Remind me when the sunami was? Remind me what is the brother chakra of the Jainism hand? Remind me when Jews used a Jainism Swastika in our synagogues for good luck which archeology uncovered? If something is marked as bad, maybe we should take the hint. That pagan swastika sure did come back to haunt us. How long before the Hamsah? Google Jainism images. The only ones ignorant here are the willing captives of Babylonian arameic sabbotage and cursed because they don't stick to Torah written by a prophet in the first person. Babylon kidnapped the leaders for a reason, to inject paganism into the leaders in the form of a cult? A window of opportunity exists to speak out and protect your restored Torah. Overcome oppression of Babylon teachings, use this window to ufind these things. It is a mitzvah. LET MY PEOPLE GO!

The only one sounding like a cultist here so far is you - a doomsday preacher attempting to reaffirm his own sidestepping from the Jewish norm by saying that everyone else is wrong. Misled. Evil, even. Change a few cursory details, and you might as well be a member of the Neturei Karta, certain in one's own self-righteous path and quite keen to point it out to everyone. Oh, and just a reminder - the Babylonians kidnapped our leadership and scattered our nation into exile because that was their method for complete and utter annihilation of a nation. Didn't quite work out as planned, and we came back to to restore a nation (albeit a client state of whoever happened by) and the Second Temple. By the way, since you utterly deny oral Torah and rely on a literal reading alone... plucked eyes and teeth out much?

their vile anti-semitic hatred towards religious Jews. No ones trying to ram a shofar up your ass..so quiet down and lets pretend you are a mench. Donuts to coffee, Israel will become a more religious society while those seculars who cant stand it will emigrate to nothingness. America, Canada and the rest of the world have tons of Israelis who no one gives a damn about. After a while, they gravitate back to their roots (Fellow Jews) because of lonliness and home sickness. As a matter of fact many of them seek their Jewish roots. Hmmmm its almost as if you have to leave Israel, live amongst the goyim, eat their shit before you realize that Israel and the Jews therein are the goldeneh medina.

The article was well thought out, factually accurate, and presented an enlightening perspective. As a baal tshuva, I don't believe that every Jew should be "observant", but I do feel they should be aware and appreciative of their own history and heritage. Jews who hate their own spiritual identity or other Jews merely because they choose a different way to observe are in a dilemma. BTW, I am often amazed at the ignorance of some ultra-orthodox about that aspect of Jewish history. The emphasis in their learning is on gemmara pilpul, sometimes to the point of excluding the basics. Scholarly input would be greatly appreciated. Mr. Talmor, would you like a chevruta?

"We wanted to raise a generation of epicureans, but instead we raised a generation of simpletons." makes no sense. Despite the similarity of the words, Apikoros does not translate to Epicurean. Epicurean means devoted to refined aesthetic or sensuous enjoyment. What he meant was Heretics. As the Vilner Apikoros said to his student, you're not an apikoros, you're just a boor.

i moved to TA about a year ago from jerusalem, fearing that I would be going into a city void of tradition, national identity, and all around jewish life. it turns out that in addition to me fasting for the day, so did my 'secular' neighbor and her 'secular' boyfriend. we high fived over it. huh, city of hedonism for those who want to see only that part of it.

I fully agree that closing of businesses is an admirable thing on national days of mourning or on holidays. What I can not abide and find intolerable is the forced closing of businesses by the government. Or fining of businesses if they stay open. In truth these should be optional to the business owner. What can be done and I would have no objection to is telling the business owner that if open on a holiday or day of mourning, employees have a right to request the day off and those that choose to work must be paid at double their usual rate. This is a fair and reasonable way to allow a business to serve it's customers and community. Not all areas of Israel are interested in observing particular holidays.

There is an additional connection between a " secular" and a "religious" connotation for this date: on Tish'a b'Av 1942 the nazis started the large deportation from the Warsaw ghetto to the Treblinka death camp.

look all this talk about religious and secular it does not matter we are all Jews and i love you as long as you are Jewish even though i am branded religious according to Israel branding regulations - anyways it does not matter if you are religious or secular - g-d states clearly that those who mourn the destruction of the temple or beit hamikdash on Tish b Av will merit to participate and see the third temple in all its glory - those who do not mourn the destruction it does not state clearly the result but you will not participate in anything to do with the third temple. The choice is up to each individual - it would be nice if the state would make it an official holiday so it would be easier for people to celebrate the holiday but one day as we get closer to the messiah maybe that will happen. So if you had a great day at the mall or in a nice restaurant today maybe think what I wrote above or research it for next year so you can prepare your self when Tish b Av shows up - remember its not the religious people telling you to do anything - it is your own g-d bless is he king of the Jews telling you to mourn his home that was destroyed twice.

Instead of trying to prove that there may be some things in judaism that come from paganism (which is sadly true), you don't give us any proof that is the case with the Ninth of Av. Then, had you ever opened a gemara, you would have seen how the problem of paganism is treated. Even then, there was great critics again some use of magics or misconception of the "bad eye". Finally, you attribute those fasts to babylonian culture. A bit contradictory when tisha b'av or the 17th of tammuz are against what the babylonians did...

More like gorification of the bible, which is why the Warsaw Ghetto uprising seemed more noble than centuries of discrimination and suffering. The day will come when Holocaust Memorial Day will move to Tish'a B'av. (That's one wisdom even those who didn't like Begin will grant he got right.) And when it does we will have moved on from gory and back to glory that peace with our neighbors will bring.

it's not only the ignorance that was perpetuated by the schools it also the hatred towards haredi jews that comes from the secular media makes very difficult for secular jews to learn and be familiar with what their religion has to offer the secular media basically destroyed religion and unfortunatly they did not give them any substitute when secular jews leave israel they see they have nothing and it's only the religious jews that help them and that point they are willing to listen and thank God many become religious which was impossible in Israel

ok i will write to Benjamin Netanyahu, in two days . thanks ben singapore

The fasting and lamentation in Tisha B'Av should be abolished,instead the day should be declared a day of celebration and feasting,just to spite Titos and other enemies of Israel,last time i checked ,the Walls of Jerusalem are intact,any Jew all over the world can make Alyah,what more do you want ?,Israel was created by people who did not fast in Tisha B'Av ,and they have accomplihed much more than those who fast and stick to the past,to fast in Tisha B'Av is a vote of no confidence in the state of Israel,and an encouragement to the Arabs.

Can sombody enlighten me,did the Jews during the second Temple observe the fasting and lamentation of Tisha B'Av ?,to commemorate the destruction of the first Temple destroyed by the Baylonians.

Max ! The Germans used the Jewish calendar as a guide in their extermination plans,for instance,Sabath Hanuka 1943,24000 Jewish women were murdered at Auscwitz,yes,24000.

Yes we`ve heard about the destruction of the temple blah blah, fact is i dont give a damm i am not religious and this has no meaning to me. We had no problem finding a resturant open. The more laws that are passed telling secular people what they can do and cant do based on a religious belief only alianates secular jews even futher from religion.

'traditions of mourning were adopted by individuals' - actually the four fast-days were ordained by the last of the prophets, and mentioned in the Bible (Zecariah 8:19) and thus carry a considerable weight. They were never just an individual custom that spread.

during the second Temple era, in Julios Ceasar house there was Jewish security guard of the Juliays Family, his name was Timon(probably Simon in Hebrew) the Juliays had house protocol, they kept documents of what the cook even did, anyway Timon onces wear YAMAKA, and the manager of the house who was greek asked him: "Y r you wearing hat" than Tymon answered: "Yom Kipur". this is a true story by archyological evidences. collective grive was very commen. even in exile like Tymon story, also evidences he returned with his brother wife and 3 children to Jerusalem, he later on joined the great rebeliation against the Roman conquerers, that was after Gayus ceasar was murdered in the Forum.

Name calling is so effective isn't it? Now get serious and answer me this. The holiday is on the summer solstice or not? What other solstice holidays have we been told were based on some Torah bPeh excuse? As far as the eye-for-an-eye that is found in books written by unknow authors who were not Moses. They are written in second person, so since we can only listen to validated prophets, and Moses said no adding to the wordsn or the laws he gave "this day" that law is an illegal addition. So is writting second person as laws as it changes the words Moses said. But I am not adverse to some application of the eye-for-an-eye concept, for example the death penelaty for a murderer. Or the punishement of Rabbis for saying that La Shon Harah is murder under Dev 19:21 since it is an attempt to charge a serious offense for a minor disgression. Glad we cleared that up. Neturei Karta? They follow oral traditions, make up your mind if your going to faslesly accuse me.. As far as self righteousness, thank you but I cannot take credit for Torah laws regarding not adding or subtracting from what Moses gave. If it were my idea, I would thank you for the compliment. It is the best law. I would also love to take credit for the law forbidding celebrating solstice and the curses, but again it is Torah and G-d that hold that honor. Choose death is asking for it, should they not get it? If people continue to fast for the solstice and the curses of war and death come to the families of Israel, can't say this is my doing. You choose it, not me. You were self righteous and not Torah righteous, not me.

Some MORON on the radio yesterday said that Tisha B'av should be on the same level as Yom HaShoa? Say what?! Hello!! NO it shouldn't! Tish B'av is an excuse for a day off work - it isn't a major event in the Jewish calendar - whoever wants to mourn can do so, but leave the rest of us to carry on living. Of course Diaspora Jews take every single Jewish calendar event seriously – it’s fodder for their conscience – makes them feel more like Jews instead of getting off their asses, leaving the good life, and making aliyah - you know, the land that God gave the Jews? I'm not feeling the sadness on Tisha B'av - and if I ever did look back, it would only be to see how far we've come.