Is the expulsion of the Jews of Spain also a "religious" thing ? It's History , ok . The same History as another mourning day , the Yom Hashoa . There is one difference between them : a 450 years . The destruction of the Temples is also PART of our SECULAR history , it's part of OUR JEWISH People's HISTORY , this HISTORY that gives us the right to live here . You have'nt to fast of course , but don't exagerate in the other direction , with words and acts

their vile anti-semitic hatred towards secular Jews.

All religion is paganism. It matters not what "Gods" or "God" one serves. The mere fact that one makes himself subservient to a diety is paganism. To worship an unknown entity, unseeable and untouchable and incommunicado with Mankind and to dance round a totem pole are exactly one and the same thing,paganism.

You can say Babylonian traditions that contain Magi incantaions that are now the basis of prayers using perfromative language, repetions, numerical constructs and word play are not part corruptions. But all of those things are Magic and G-d would not allow Baalam to curse us because there was in part no magic in the tents of Jaacob. Now everyone has a magic item hanging in their house and the curses of war have not stopped. You can say that the failure to "give G-d an orginal prayer" is not a source for Torah curses. You can even point to the Zohar and say it is harmless. But one thing is for sure, it is from Babylon and many people are cursed with madness when the study it. How then could it be holy and good? Kind of like the bad on Tisha BAv. It is hard to say G-d is not making Himself clear on the issue. A quick lesson in illegal magic. Words are written to flow from one words power into another nusing like sounding words. For example Na Nah...goes into Nachoman. A saying to increase the power to the family Nachoman? oooh but it brings good luck really!! Really!!, trust them?! ahahaha! Friars. Every wheel chair reminds me. No wonder there is so much brainwashing in the world. People need to be touched in the head not to see the obvious curses. Google and learn what is magic before you say from an uninformed stance someone is a doomsdayer or just a reporter of facts in evidence. LET MY PEOPLE GO.

Do you really think they fress all day because they don't know??? And if the DID know, they wouldn't? ha ha.Stop the holy posturing. Like the holier than thou car stickers telling OTHERS what to do. Put the flipping sticker in front of YOU on YOUR front window above YOUR steering wheel. Just a metaphor, but you get my meaning I'm sure.

Your comment caused me to re-read the article, though I didn't find anything alluding to the city of Tel-Aviv. The Belzer Rebbe zt'l, upon his arrival to Israel after the war, refused the offer to set up his court in Yerushalayim, rather preferring Tel-Aviv, because he saw it as a "JEWISH" city due to the Jewish population there. However, the fact remains that the secular system has bred an ignorance to our heritage, in its quest for de-religiousity, there has been a stripping of nationalism as well. The Jewish people, especially those like you for whom Judaism has meaning, are the ones who have lost out in this process.

The day Nith of Av IS the summer solstice date. Done, case closed. I guess looking it up on the inrternet is too much for you? Proof 2 History of curses on that day knowing that it is a day of traditional religious observance. Heck even the banks and restaurants are closed.. Done case closed. Proof 3 Kabbalistic use of Tarot, astrology, blessings of the sun, acceptabce of the babylonian calendar of lunar observatons, a star as our countries symbol. Pagan worship of the stars and planets is inside our gates. The solstic is on the magicians timetables of doing religious things. We trust a kabbalist is being honest? "bit contradictory when tisha b'av or the 17th of tammuz are against what the babylonians" Not at all contradictory. Liars pose as whatever is convienient. Christians point at Satan and look for an antichrist but Jesus said he came to cause brother to kill brother, bring war and talked with Satan not G-d.. Its just smoke in mirrors to hide the fact that the trojan army just crawled into your bed Israel. Or in this case sabbotaged our relationship with G-d to weaken us to be overthrow and manipulated by cult teachings that have done everything from putting magic in our homes, to renting us our own land, to observation of lunar and astrological pagan holidays, to sacraficing plates of food to ghost of the fathers instead of G-d, to prayers mocking G-d's request not to add to Torah, to sacraficing wine to an eternal being that fixed a pagan alter to sacrfice to G-d on it, to abuse -not love-of the converts, to threats of death to anyone who only accepts the text of prophets only not just any Johnny come lately, to saying a written book is "oral" and not an addition, etc. All the while we are being despised in antisemitism, abused, subject to pograms, tossed in ovens and oppressed in our own cities by our own leaders with protecia and barogus. We live a constant state of fear of attack, war and in cages baring every window while no-nation vile people are promoted in the world arena over us and our children. The picture is curses of Torah and the excuses from those selling the Babylonian tradition are not cutting it,. We have been hijcaked and duped into false teachings meant to undermine Torah. You don;t see words of Moses being spoke of on the streets as we walk on our way because such exposure of writing on the doorposts or carrying copies of Torah in public has been disallowed. Ask a tephillin poacher what is the reason for the ceremony and see that he hasn't a Torah clue, just Jainism answers about fire wind and water. Friars, wake up. We are no different than Muslims or Christians. Letting additions change what was never permitted to be changed, we pay the price with our childrens futures in combat. Our history is not glorious but a long line of near misses and a state of constant cursed jeopardy. What if G-d gives up on this bunch and pulls anpother out of disporah? We even had an army launch into our heartland posed to conquer us with no resistance. A shadow of mercy from G-d stopped the onslaught? G-d could have just warned us the day before but he set an example before us which was very serious? Blessed people don't have armies marching up their streets. How close do we need to get to anihilation before we get the message? The world is not against us, we are against us. It is not for us to do these added things.

Well written article, while no one should be forced to observe or even fast, as a nation and a peoples it would do us much good to be cognizant and respectful of our traditions. The 9Th of Av has always traditionally been a day of mourning even during the 40 years of wandering on the 9Th of Av all the men would dig graves in the desert go to sleep and in the morning whom ever was deserving would wake up. This was as punishment for the sin of the spies since the nation demanded that they be sent and wept over their false report etc etc... In many places of the world there are by-laws regulating the closure of stores on Saturday or Sunday and major holidays. Nothing wrong with having such laws here in Israel.

(i) The summer solstice is on June 21st each year because the civil calendar is a solar calendar. The Jewish calendar is a lunar one, interpolated such that the month of Nissan occurs during the spring. (ii) In Israel, apparently, the law obliges businesses to remain closed. If the reason behind this is religious, it is because one is not supposed to work in order not to divert one's attention from mourning. (iii) There is no such thing as 'kabbalistic tarot' as you claim. Any form of divination is prohibited by Jewish Law. We recite blessing over the sun, and the moon, at the beginning of each cycle. Once a month for the moon; once every 28 years for the sun. This is not a kabbalistic practice - it is Law. I'm wonder where you get your ideas from. They do not appear to derive from mainstream orthodox Judaism. Perhaps you would care to enlighten us.

is on the "solstice" day ? Does it mean that we are pagans ? For someone who looks to insult TRUE Jews , but who is a TRUE goyish cross adorer , it's natutrally so .

The Halacha is that eating places that are kosher should stay open because a person who does not fast on Tisha be Av will go looking for places to eat and if all the Kosher places are closed, then he might go to a non-kosher place.

You don't know, nor care, about our past from before recent European history. Perhaps you don't see it as *your* past altogether - and that, in itself, is the great loss. The Jewish people were not born with the start of Zionist ideology in Europe.

It is the solstice. Case closed already. Torot and Kabbalah is all illegal. At one point the rabbis even admitted it was but they just couldn;t keep away from the cookie jar. If you read Torah blessing the sun or the moon is specifically cited as illegal. You are not supposed to recognize these entities. Does it mean we are pagans if we celebrate pagan holdiays and pray to pagan items or use objects as doorpost guardians or tephilin as power recharging rather than a simple reminder, of course the answer is yes. Yes Yes Yes. We have one G-d and you shall not recognize any other g-ds before HIm. He is our savior and fish eyes, hamsah and other trinkets are ASUR! Again read Devarim 4:2. Just the act of adding these "law" ceremonies is illegal in itself.

Anytime including Shabbat. Separate religion from the state. Free us to practice our religion as we choose or not to.

with the solstice , but this your goyishe kop can't understand

Any division in a family, religion or a group is harmful. Division occurs from a lack of knowledge and insight or depth of perception. This is very true of all religions. As #8 suggested that Jews should only rely on what the prophets had said but look very closely at what is taught as historical and ritualistic. The later are usually used to keep the people on the level of a child and therefore under control.

Josh is very coy about revealing where he gets his ideas from. I get the impression he is a Karaite. At all events he is certainly obsessed with some weird ideas.

We have a lunar-based calendar that is normalized to a solar cycle, so that every 19 years we return to sync with the solar structure and maintain the seasons in their expected months. The solstice, in contrast, is an entirely solar issue, and this year's summer solstice was on June 21st, 11:28 UTC, which is 14:28 in Israel Summer Time. Except... we're in July. Tisha Be'av started on Monday evening (July 19th) and continued on to end on Tuesday evening (July 20th). So where's the overlap? Not only are the Jewish and solar calendars different at their basic level, they're not even close to overlapping on this issue at all. Josh is lying again, plain and simple. Just like he's lying about Kabbalah, all in the name of his arrogant, fanatical literal-minded path he calls "Jewish" without actual Jews ever agreeing to it.

And even if Tisha Be'av and the solstice were always on the same date , facts remain , the temples were destroyed this day , and we have'nt to change the date because of a solstice . That we can't trusth this josh , i know it already since years , the same for this paqid and followers . You see , we can agree on more than one point , שבת שלום

I once heard someone saying : what do we need the Kotel ? it are only stones ! Yes , it are stones for sure . But , as i answered then and now , Those Stones are part of our History , this History that is told in the Tanach [ i said already that for me the Torah is ONLY our History book ] That"s the History of our ancestors , OUR People , and gives us the RIGHT to live here . I'm a secular Atheist who does'nt deny the Historicall part of the Torah . You have'nt to be religious to live our History in Jerusalem . Imagine that , let's say , King David gave a shot on a stone while walking on Mount Zion . You can also give a shot on this SAME stome . It's an image , but you can live our History in many places in OUR Capital and everywhere in this , OUR , Country . It's LIVE History , not written in books

Even had there been some kind of overlap between the solstice and Tisha Be'Av, it is not the meaning we ascribe to it, and there's no need for us to change it because somehow, somewhere, someone else has a different meaning for the same date. It's about how *we* see it, not about how someone else does. For us, it is the date of the Temple's destruction, nothing more. I'm glad we see this matter the same way.

Re: "But is this really coercion, or just an erroneous conception of the holiday on our part, the seculars? ... Tisha B'Av would not be seen as religious coercion.": The author shows why secular Israelis ought to commemorate Tisha b'Av as well. Be that as it may, coercion is coercion, period. The author is content showing that Tisha b'Av isn't exclusively "religious", but that rather, it has national implications for the Jewish people, religious and secular alike. Oh, so that makes coercion okay???!!! As long as the coercion isn't religious, it's alright? Re: "state-wide ceremonies are viewed as a way of commemorating national events": And, joy of joys, we get Rousseau-ian celebration of "the state", and how "the state" is "national" and represents "the people". Please excuse me while I vomit. This not only reminds one of fascism, but it is also anachronistic. The author said, "... in the absence of a country, there was no way of developing a state ceremony...", but even when we Jews lived in Israel, we still did not have a "state" in the modern sense, and we *never* had the government manage or establish ceremonies. Such a concept as a state ceremony was utterly foreign to Jews, even when we still lived in Israel. Jews did not embrace fascism even when we still had our own country in our own land. (For the record, I am *not* saying the author is a fascist. I am only saying the ideas the author expresses resemble, and have a similarity to, fascism, but those remarks are not themselves fascist.)