Jewish Scene
Living in ultra-Orthodox closet
Ravid Oren
Published: 02.09.10, 16:08
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1. The caption of the photo enclosed says it all. Baloney!
Shalom   (09.02.10)
2. what are you trying to say ?
Haddad ,   London U.K   (09.02.10)
its a sad article by a desperate writer who could not find some thing better to write about. You talked about 4 or 5 people. Why dont you write about hundred of thousand of BAALE TESHUVA and a more than a million of observants? what are you trying to promote?
3. Easy way is to blame God
dudu ,   Amerrika   (09.02.10)
Sad stories, but all are no more than lies. God doesn't control you, not even if your're wearing black and a death animal in your head. Not being true to your believes, is not about religion, eating shelfish is not a big sin, if you cannot live without eating shelfish, go and live by the sea and don blame God no even religion. total NONSENSE.
4. I bet it DOES feel like a costume ...
Ali ,   Washington DC   (09.02.10)
5. so, there are fall outs, but
Larry ,   Los Angeles   (09.02.10)
there are those who abandon secular live to live a life of purity, and must somehow deal with their secular fiends who think them strange. The bottom line, although even one fall out is tragic, it happens. But thank G-d more people are becoming enlightened and re-entering observant lifestyles.
6. your worth is based on your performance
mike ,   israel (formerly usa   (09.02.10)
you don't perform/conform, you are no longer welcome. and to think that these same people worry about assimilation and declining jewish numbers. heck, they are helping it happen.
7. Don't listen to the negative comments. You are strong.
Rebecca ,   Israel   (09.02.10)
Congratulations on making the choice to stand up for your own identities. I hope you continue to explore the myriad of wonderful ways in which we can live fulfilling and fruitful lives, without repression, oppression, or lies. If you choose to remain religious outside of the haredi community, congratulations on finding a harmony between religion, goodness, truth, openness, enlightenment, respect, and engagement with the rest of the world.
8. Orthodox Education...
Ariel ,   São Paulo - Brazil   (09.02.10)
I think the problem is that when one is secular and decides to become a ortodox, he has a financial and cultural background, allowing him to turn back if not liking. The same does not happen who is born in an Orthodox home. Unfortunately, the Orthodox education does not prepare you for life , prepare you only to live in an Orthodox community.
9. And how many seculars become observant each year?
Besalel ,   Great Neck, NY   (09.02.10)
look, whether or not a person chooses to be observant or religious is such a personal intimite decision that it is such a complete violation of decency and professionalism to write articles that belittle one choice over the other. moreover, we readers understand that the characters in this story are very complex individuals, as we all are, and there are so many different factors that come into play in making these decisions, many factors the subject of deep emotional and psycological complexity, that it is simply childish for the author to suggest that plugging into the internet and "enlightenment" caused all these people to leave the fold. The same would hold true of an article about the miriad of seculars that went to hear rabbi amnon yitzchak and suddenly saw the light. we humans are more complex than that.
10. Torah is not the problem
tim   (09.02.10)
Judaism is not a variety of cuisine or of dress or of humor or of worship- or meditation- centered religion or of political State or even of values or law alone – of any of those things which are called “culture” or even “religion”. It is a way of life called the Torah which is applicable to everything in the world, in the midst of any culture. If we would raise children in the paths of Torah with the simcha and geshmak (joy and savor) and above all the feeling of chashivus (confidence) that they presently seek elsewhere, they would not depart from them.
11. Basic Jewish faith
Israeli grandma   (09.02.10)
is not in fact linked indissolubly to specific dress, or whether you have TV in your home. Our family keeps shabbat without making it a burden or a punishment, we wear modern dress - if not as revealing of the body as currently fashionable, and are careful to act honestly and decently in our daily life and in business. This is our Jewish heritage, and has survived persecution and suppression in the long years of our exile from our Land. There must be something in it to last out thousands of years and and many cultures. Personal faith is something which does not cancel out the validity of a religion for others if you reach a point where you no longer believe what you were taught. YNet is having a characteristic attack on Judiasm prior to the holiest period of the Jewish calendar. I noticed that they did not DARE to touch the subject of Ramadan and Islamic faith, there is plenty of material out there Ynet writers!!!!!!
12. Missing the point of Judaism
blash ,   Jerusalem   (09.02.10)
These people miss the whole point of Judaism. Judaism isn't about God - it's about communities and how we interact with other people. Shmirat Mitzvot isn't about getting into Heaven instead of going to Hell, it's about having everyone live the same life because conformity brings people together so that they can live happier lives. Judaism's focus on family, love, respect, and spirituality are what set it apart from all other religions - not Kashrut. Believing that God is a guy with a white beard and a flowing white robe sitting on a cloud who is all-powerful is a childish view of God - and it's not just because "God is omniscient." Perhaps these people should take some divinity classes to understand that there are multiple conceptions of God - many of them compatible with Orthodox Judaism. Just because you don't understand what "faith" really means doesn't mean you have to dump the whole kahula.
13. They are being pushed too far
Shalom ,   Ashdod, Israel   (09.02.10)
Moderation according to the Rambam is the key for behaving in this world. I believe some parts of this article and I think that the most important reason why this is happening is because of the strict system under which they live of dress code, how to think, what to say who to marry which forces some of them to snap and the rest who do not snap just carry on because that is the way they were raised. The long black coat and hat (Shtrimel for Shabbat) were designed for the cold parts of Eastern Europe and not for the hot and steamy Middle East. Ironically, even Sepharadim (and I am one of them) are dressing as if they just came off the boat from Eastern Europe. Please do tell, where is this particular dress code mentioned in the Talmud.
14. Personally, sounds like a Psychological Dis-order
Tony ,   U.K   (09.02.10)
All to often people with these sort of issues are suffering from some deep internal inconcruencies, and the relief they get from being the "naughty boy" is similar to that of an addict gaining his short time relief from his alchohol, sex or drugs. (incongruencies can stem from abuse or trauma, dysfunctitanal parents etc...) Why is it that people have to constantly compare their state of happiness to what it would be like "if i were"? in reality there are countless satisfied religious people, and plenty of happiness with secular. Either way I think the article reveals a valid point only regarding the sad state of a person, either religious or not who is feeling constant incongruence"s. Step one to healing is usually, Start by accepting and respecting yourself unconditionally. As well as to realise that "Happiness is unconditional".
15. this article
jonathan ,   brooklyn ny   (09.02.10)
there are unhappy people everywhere why are you using a few unhappy individuals to paint a picture that by and large is not true...i am suspicious it is to further your agenda to take people away from what you think is fanatical life and if you don't print this piece that will prove my premise to be true...
16. The exodus is well supported, actually.
Dr Dre   (09.02.10)
17. This article is so fake
AB ,   TheRock   (09.02.10)
It is so obvious what the intention of this article is to try and persuade others to leave the Torah and to undermine those who live by it. Anybody who has been religious for a long time does not bother checking if it's true or not. That is so ridiculous. G-d is everywhere if you want to find Him. Only what, there is an evil inclination in everyone (to allow for free will) and sometimes some are not strong enough to overcome it. So they say that they question G-d's existence so that they can do what they want. This article in the guise of seeming sympathetic is just one of ynets ways (as are their disgusting adverts) of poisining such weak minds. I always promise myself that I will not read ynet news because of this but then somebody has to blow their cover. I'm glad I'm not alone in doing so.
18. Important article
Avraham ,   Baltimore   (09.03.10)
It's important to expose Haredim and their fanaticism.
19. Y Net's Favorite Article
Alley Oop ,   Tel Aviv   (09.02.10)
Warped and demented BS. You guys must really enjoy sinking to new lows.
20. So sad!
Avi Kane ,   Modiin   (09.03.10)
It's so sad that there exist Jews who don't see the beauty in Judaism. In fact, there are so many non-Jews who admire us for being Jewish. And Jews questioning their faith is nothing new. If everyone in Israel would think like these questioners, the State of Israel would cease to exist. Israel and the Jewish People is based on the Torah and the Jewish obstinacy to endure in life's struggles.
21. Suicide - the ultimate selfish act
yisroel ,   Brooklyn USA   (09.02.10)
The common thread shared by all these self-closetted people is their preoccupation with themselves. These people are physically, mentally, and spritually ill. May they all have a refuah shelamah and a yeshua.
22. Hypocracy, If you realy dont believe then why be afraid
Jon ,   USA   (09.02.10)
of taking the children out of the religion?, The Truth is, as many great theologians have said, that people justify their wants and desires, when they are not ethical ,by denying God. Even though virtualy all of sophistocated humanity have acknowledged God, and it has been proven throughout millenia. Its much like denying the holocaust and saying "how is it proven?" which is also usally a result of an ulterior motive
23. two extremes
Golan ,   modiin   (09.03.10)
here is a person who is either Haredi (extreme) or secular (extreme) Judaism allows people to question, it does not offer a answer to everything, the Torah does not have to be taken literally. The Talmud and rabbinical writings are not the word of God. When you realize these things (and that the sages agree with what I wrote) you realize that Judaism is not so strict. You also feel free to learn and understand things in an open manner. And that this world has many ways to get to know God's creation. But to dress like a penguin and run off to eat shelfish is silly. It is a sign of trying to breakout of a prison of your own making. This is why it is important to be able to understand everything around you. And to keep the traditions but not make them a religion. We do not eat shellfish, but to eat scaled fish in a non-kosher restaurant is fine. Nothing wrong with eating beef, even if it was not slaughtered kosher (vayikra, look it up) but don't mix meat and dairy. As for believing in God or not, it does not matter. Just be a good person.
24. A fascinating article ..
michael redbourn ,   Arad - Israel   (09.02.10)
Regardless of whether you are religious or not, this article should be of great interest. Rabbis, priests and clergymen etc often go through lapses of faith but I've never heard about it happening to the haredim before. I do believe in God and I feel for those in the article that stopped believing. To stop believing is one thing, but to stop believing in the haredi world is obviously much much worse and far more difficult. Michael
25. #2 - the writer hasn't met more than 4-5 people
michael peterson ,   London, UK   (09.02.10)
that feel the same. It's an interesting and enlightening article that shouldn't be lightly dismissed. Michael
26. Wow
Ilana ,   Jerusalem, Israel   (09.02.10)
Ynet, you have really taken your harsh and biased agenda to a new extreme. Your goal seems to be to get Jews to hate one another. The reality is, some Haredim are fanatical and rioters and all that. Most, however, are loving people who firmly believe in Torah and Jewish ideals, and have numerous relatives all across the Jewish spectrum. Scholarly Torah learning is all about challenging questions and getting answers. You are attempting to lump religious Jews with other religions' fanatasicm. It is their own fear of what others might think (if they come out and show they are secular) that is creating their dilemma, nothing else. There are many qualified rabbis or counselours who can offer real help to those with deep faith questions, or help them to simply find peace within themselves. Often those who abandon their faith do not go on to find happiness, as the case in your article ended in suicide.
27. ynet-try a little sensitivity!
nosson ,   J-M   (09.03.10)
It is very annoying to have to worry about the fine points of Judaism- your community and family have their eyes on you all the time- you can never let up. On the other hand,it is difficult to find and to fit into another social group. It is worse than coming on aliyah without knowing anybody in the country. Not everyone seeks proof for religion - it is just too difficult to feel guilty about not conforming to many aspects of strict observance. How many men and woman find it almost impossible not to touch each for twelve days each month- when the secular don't usually have sex for only five or six days a month? There are Haredi meat shops that sell chickens in three separate departments( Badatz, Rubin,Belz-you name it). Not every Jew can put up with that! Ynet and Ma'ariv, on the other hand made lots of money on call girl adverts- until they were forced to stop. These guys are still whores -big time. Don't they think it is very strongly wrong to accept adverts from missionary groups? Does ynet not think that not everything goes? Did millions of Jews come to Israel to become non-Jews? It might matter where the advert is placed. Is ynet suggesting that if the Haredi life style is to difficult to observe-there is even a non-Jewish alternate lifestyle? There were similar adverts in New York City buses and trains. The powers that be stopped it from happening again . They realized that the ads were highly insulting to sincere Jews? Does ynet need the extra income that badly? j
28. Non-Orthodox
Yitzchak ,   Netanya   (09.03.10)
90 % of American Jews are Reform or Conservative, or otherwise non-Orthodox. These liberal strains of Judaism provide a way to remain within the Jewish Community while also living a modern life. Too bad the Israeli government doesn't support these non-Orthodox alternatives.
29. Extremes
Miriam ,   Canada   (09.03.10)
I think that there can be Jews in every society that go to extremes. In Kashrut, there are different standards - eg. Mehadrin and Rabbinut I understand people wanting to be extra careful about certain things and I think that's fine but I really believe that: Being more extreme does not mean being more religious. There is a G-d and the exodus is real it's sad that this man thinks this way. He could have been turned off of religion for a lot of reasons including fence upon fence or for something else. Maybe something bad happened to him. He claims there is evidence to say our religin is not true. But the author never presents that evidence for us to judge. In fact Judaism is one of the only religions that can claim 600,000 witnesses and there is archeological evidence that has surfaced that leads archeologists to believe that the exodus and plagues occured and could happen again. So... I feel bad for this herraidi guy. If he really doesn't believe... fine, but I think it's horrible that this article was published especially now, right before rosh hashanna and yom kippur. It's sick.
30. Don't confuse religion with God. God is real.
Lizette ,   USA   (09.03.10)
For all of you that have been victims of the lies of religion, I like to say that religion does not have anything to do with God. God is real, the Bible is real even arqueology had confirm the bible and I am so glad about that. There is One God for Mankind. His name is Jehova, Jesus, The Holy One, The Almighty, Our Couselor, The Life of the World, etc. and all is found in the pages of the Bible and many other writings that confirm the same message. The message for Mankind is, your Salvation has a name Jesus Christ the Messiah for the Jews and for the entire World. Jesus came to save us from ourselves. Our human nature is imperfect now because mankind did trust more the evil one that God himself. Today we have a nature that wants to do the opposite of what is right. Religion did translate God's message in a bunch of external rules to try to please God when God's intention always has been to win the heart of mankind so we can do His Will voluntary. God have spoken and His message is a one of unconditional love. Don't blame God because Mankind have missinterpretated the intention of God. Mankind invented religion. The Bible is the book of our past, present and furture. Our present is to find God and have a personal Super with Him. Then your eyes are going to be open and you will find your Creator as I did. The Creator of everything is visible, not visible. The Life itself. Then you will understand why you were created for and is amazing to know that we are not alone, and we were created for a purpose. Search for that purpose He is at the reach of your voice. Call Him up He will answer if your heart and mind is open to Him.
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