Jewish Scene
Israeli Jews at odds with liberal US brethren
Associated Press
Published: 19.11.10, 14:21
Comment Comment
Print comment Print comment
Back to article
69 Talkbacks for this article
1. The orthodox are a significantly varied world actually!
Jae ,   Lynn US   (11.19.10)
Though they have their own challenges, the challenges posed by the excessive and trendy "Judaisms" of the modern era are not grounded in Jewish roots as much as a motley crew of Atheistic, Hellenistic and "Humanism" roots. Call yourself a Jew if you are and want to, but dont call your home made brew "Samuel Adams", or rc cola coca-cola... Reform can contribute some things to the consciousness of Judaism, but by and large it has not foundation in Judaism. btw, what is the problem for this girl? she wants a conservative wedding? is that the fuss?
2. #1
Dudi ,   Jerusalem   (11.19.10)
I am religious, but I do have an objection to what you said. You must understand that much of the Orthodox world today is a response to pressures of assimilation and reform. The intense need to preserve tradition was intensified after the reform movement. So, traditional Judaism as a dynamic religion would lie somewhere left of Orthodox Judaism. Previous elements of Judaism were inspired by the times in which those Jews lived. So too, Judaism today brings in other ideas to make Judaism stronger.
3. Israel
Sagi   (11.19.10)
can in no way be called democratic. This country which I love with all my heart and soul has a finger hovering over the self destruct button and I for one shall not stay here to witness the religious zealots ruin this land and nation. They are doing it every day and they come closer to their goal as the days go by. It is only a matter of time until this country verges on a theocracy and then actually becomes one. Demographics can not be argued with. The ultra orthodox will continue to use political blackmail up until they become the actual majority and then we shall have a President and Prime Minister and senior Ministers who are UO and that shall be our downfall. I shall not be here to witness it. I hope to be far far away and I shall not have an Israeli passport because I shall not be proud to have one as I always have been but rather I shall be ashamed. Sad for me to express myself in such a manner but that is how I feel. These people, these "men of God" are ruining a nation, ruining Zionism, Zionism is their enemy. These people are anti everything except what is written in a book. You and me be damned, freedom be damned. They want things their way only. The end is nigh.
4. This is the result of mixed marriages--destruction of Israel
m   (11.19.10)
Of course YNET will jump on a story of a "famous Zionist"(who??) to bash Judaism and Halacha, but the truth is if she wants to be Jewish, or, anyone else--convert, show how much you want. Anyone who has tantrums at our rules and leaves=erev rav. By the way JPost has a similar teary story, to show where all of Israeli media is going.
5. Let me guess... Hillary will not renounce her
seadog1946 ,   Shooters Island, NJ   (11.19.10)
US citizenship nor will she rip up her US passport... "just in case". In any event, she will also claim to be a loyal citizen of Israel.
6. Nachum Sokolow
Rabbi Aryeh Moshen ,   NY / USA   (11.19.10)
If you were to have asked him what would have have done if one of his sons brought a non-Jewish woman as a wife, he would have answered, "Sit Shiva". In fact, even the Conservative Movement refuses to accept the fruit of non-Jewish mothers are being Jews or permitting a Jewish man to marry a non-Jew in their ceremonies. So I doubt that she would have been eligible to be married by a Conservative Rabbi even if Israel were to permit ti to do so.
7. Jews Jewing Jews out of their Judiasm
Steve Benassi ,   Silver Bay, MN USA   (11.19.10)
...truly a sick situation, a sick people, and a sick country. Imagine what it is like to be a native Palestinian under the thumb of these sick Jews.
8. is anybody astonished?
Krzysztof ,   Warsaw, Poland   (11.19.10)
Any normal democratic western-world country leaves the identification of citizens to themselves. Are you French or Spanish? Decide for yourself according to what YOU think and feel. At this point the decisions made in Israel to follow the strictest possible definition of identity are abnormal from 1953 up until now. To the point that a child of Jewish father who survived the WWII hell prepared for him BECAUSE of his Jewishness, is treated as non-Jew irrespective of what he/she feels, how he/she identifies. Somebody wrote "Holocaust has made children of Jewish fathers adopted to Jewish nation". This might look at first glance strange. But Shoah, just as a destruction of Temple or aftermath of Bar-Kokhba revolt, is one of rarest horrible turning points of history of the Jewish nation. So just as Halakha solidified the Jewish identification rules after horrible events of its contemporary time, the common experience of Shoah by halakhic and non-halakhic Jews should bring a change to those ancient rules...
9. Another biased article on YNet
Akiva   (11.19.10)
Disgraceful anti-religion bias on display here YNet, even by your standards. She is not Jewish, not because the "Ultra-Orthodox" say so, but because HALACHA says so. Jewish law. The laws which govern the Jewish religion. The laws which are respected and adhered to by a majority of Israelis. Instead of presenting both sides of the arguement, you only present a skewed attack, yet again, on the Haredim.
10. Bulgarian way correct
Shimon ,   Poleg   (11.19.10)
My friend of Bulgarian parentage expalins this all very clearly (while smoking a cigarette on the Shabbat and eating a ham sandwich). According to the Bulgarian Jewish way. You do 4 things according to the Orthodox Bet Din, you have Brit Milah, you have Bar mitzvah, you have a Jewish marriage and you are buried. In between these 4 life events you do what the hell you like!. This sounds facetious but it is in fact correct. If these 4 life events are managed accordingly there really is no problem at all.
11. and Ashkenazi orthodox are the foundaiton?
Mike ,   new york   (11.19.10)
who gave these people the right to mandate what is Jewish and what isnt? To be Jewish is an ethnicity, not how religious you are. According to these jewish Taliban (who dont serve the army and suck off taxpayer money), Einstein, Baruch Spinoza and Freud werent 'real' Jews, since they didnt keep Shabbat. Render unto Caesar what is Caesar, and unto God what is God's. ISrael cannot let these minority religious fascists have so much power and sway in the government. Its a coming disaster.
12. Dear Hilary
Melvyn ,   zichron yaakov   (11.19.10)
Hillary go on living your life dont pay any attention to these religious zeolots they are the scum of the Jews, if there is a god then I am sure that he is weeping when he sees what these people who call themselves Jewish are doing in the name of religion. Hillary, we love you.
13. It's not "strict ultra Orthodox", it's Judaism
Baruch ,   Boston, USA   (11.19.10)
It's just that assimilated Jews don't really want to be Jewish in the was a Jew is required to be Jewish
14. thsi will kill israel and judaism as surely as assimilation
ralph   (11.19.10)
15. MK Gafni needs to learn basic math: 63% > average Israeli
Eric ,   Tel Aviv & NY   (11.19.10)
If 63% of Israelis believe something then saying the average Israeli wants the opposite is just plain wrong.
16. seperation between religion and state
Rami of Nazareth ,   Israel   (11.19.10)
In a true modern democracy, there should be a seperation between religion and state.
17. #1
US   (11.19.10)
No, the problem for this girl is that the rabbinate wouldn't grant her marriage certificate because they didn't believe she was Jewish enough.
18. "But I *feel* Jewish"
Eitan ,   Chicago   (11.19.10)
America has given birth to the laziest understanding of Jewish observance. It's no big deal if this Rubin girl wants to follow her self-reverent concept of Jewish law, but she shouldn't call it Judaism, or ask for acceptance. It's just like getting a fake medical degree in Pakistan and being upset that you don't receive a medical license to practice in the US - thank goodness that there are standards in place!
19. Who?
HWB   (11.19.10)
Who is she the decendent of and what is the connection? If the author does not wish to state this, then he should change the misleading title to "just another article about who is a Jew."
20. Who is a Jew ?
J.K. ,   Brooklyn USA   (11.19.10)
Is Hillary Rubin Jewish enough ? to have been considered by the Germans,Jewish,and deported to Auscwitz ,the Godly authorities should be brought down to earth and striped of their power,the criterion as who is a Jew should be as follows:Smart, handsome,industrious ,the rest need not apply.
21. Chelsea & Mark
Leon ,   Grand Rapids, USA   (11.19.10)
You say American Jews were proud of this marriage ? I felt like vomiting !
22. Ultra Orthodox
Steve ,   Boston, MA   (11.19.10)
The ultra orthodox Jews are cult-ish and freakish, having little relevance to modern Judaism. They bury themselves in obsessions and rituals as if they are still in the shtetl hiding from the reality of the pogroms and anti-semtism that they are helpless to prevent. That world no longer exists. The ultra-orthodox claim to authority is woven out of whole cloth and is grounded in fiction. Their practices, habits and dress are an anachronism, and alien to most Jews. Their haughty, self-proclaimed superiority is offensive, and they do little to help the Jewish community as a whole. In fact, they do more to divide and alienate us rather than to unite us. Placing them in charge of "who is a Jew" is a huge mistake.
23. Defining the 'Jew'
Mikesailor ,   Miami, FL   (11.19.10)
Judaism is a religion. I think almost all can agree with that statement. Defining a 'Jew' however is an entirely different propect. Is being a 'Jew' an ethnicity? An adherent to one sect of religious persuasion within Judaism? Who defines? And for what purpose? Political power? State benefits and/or responsibilities? It is a question plaguing the entire idea of Zionism and one yet unanswered. Because the state of Israel has always been defined in oppostion to the 'other' without defining the 'other'. Let the purges begin.
24. #1 What is her problem?
(11.19.10)
Her problem is not that she wants a conservative wedding. She simply wanted a wedding in Israel, but the Rabbinate decided the documents proving her Jewishness were insufficient. Thus, they refused to marry her. This happens constantly in Israel. The rabbinate, for reasons beyond mortal ken, accuse and question any evidence of Judaism put before them by non observant Jews. They demand grandparents kettubas (destroyed in the shoah), letters from (haredi) rabbis, and dozens of other forms of proof. If anyone manages to provide it, they will just deny them anyway and accuse them of forgery. You are right that the Orthodox world is highly varied. However, the Israeli rabbinate is rapidly becoming populated soley by the most extreme, intransigent types. This is not a local Chabad house. This is a society that wants to build a ghetto wall around Judaism, and deny the heritage of Abraham and Isaac to anyone different from themselves.
25. Not!
A Jerusalemite ,   Jerusalem, Israel   (11.19.10)
No, the average Israeli DOES NOT want the country to abide by the Jewish tradition when that is dictated by the Ultra Orthodox as the ONLY means of being Jewish. The Jewish tradition has room for all of us and not just those of the Ultra Orthodox persuasion. In the end they will drive the rest of us away from the religion rather than bring us closer to it.
26. The hara-dim should keep to their own religion
jason white ,   afula,israel   (11.19.10)
and we Jews will keep to ours,Judaism. They interfere with our Jewish life style and annoy us endlessly. As for that Mezvinsky, that was a sham and it would have been better for him to keep the yamulka and Tallit at home. If he was so concerned about Judaism, he would have asked Chelsea to convert or he would have married a Jewish woman.
27. Jae-
Moshe ,   Jerusalem   (11.19.10)
Jae- Your comments are based on nothing but closed mindedness. It is a shame you are allowed to call yourself Jewish.
28. There are dozens of secular states
BH ,   Iowa   (11.19.10)
There is one Jewish state. The strict observance so many feel inconvenienced by is what kept the nation together during two thousand years exile.
29. to 23
Shimon ,   Poleg   (11.19.10)
A Jewish person is someone who is born of a Jewish mother. It's quite simple really.
30. as Lily Tomlin once said
michael ,   new york   (11.19.10)
Fundamentalism is to religion what paint by numbers is to art. I am likely a better a Jew than most of these so -called Haredim. I live it with Tzedakah. They tend to live it with observance of some ritual ordained by some rabbi thousands of years ago. The biggest problem with religion and being governed by it is that if you look at all wars fought in history, most of them were fought by one religion against another, and over WHAT?
Next talkbacks
Back to article