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Welcome to reality
Moshe Dann
Published: 06.12.10, 11:09
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1. "One of the greatest blunders.....
Harry ,   Jerusalem   (12.06.10)
in Israeli history, the Oslo Accords, has never been investigated. Do you want to disappear or sit in jail? In this Democratic society, there are things you just leave alone.
2. Palestine is a central issue & Jerusalem is the flash point
Salma ,   Palestine   (12.06.10)
the Palestinian problem is above all problems, in spite of the prevailing deplorable state of the Arab world that has allowed the "Jihad movements " to falsely use the Palestinian problem in its effort to create and reinforce a clash of civilizations between Islam and the West. Solve the Palestinian problem is the key to withdraw the excuses from the fundamentalist movements and from the repressive Arab regimes that prevent the spread of Democracy in the Region under the pretext of safety and security !! So Mr, Dan, Regardless of all the gossip and speculation NO MORE REALITY.
3. tainted logic does not a justification make
oferdesade ,   israel   (12.06.10)
you're doing exactly what you're accusing everyone else of doing. that fact that wiki exposes everyone else as hypocrits does not a priori make the arguments of those it exposes wrong. just because everyone was opposed to oslo doesnt mean that oslo was wrong. just because people use iran to cover up settler expulsion does not make settler expulsion right. you are using the wiki mess to justify or batter without providing arguments for the issues themselves. it's cheap and does your ideologies a disservice.
4. Excellent Artcile. ps Salma, Jordans Heir to Throne is
Ya'aqove ,   Northern Israel   (12.06.10)
"Palestinian". That means the next ruler of Jordan is a "Palestinian" Jordan Is Palestine, land, people, and heir to the throne!!!
5. surprise...
Larry ,   Los Angeles   (12.06.10)
Well reported, well said, kudo's for the author and Ynet for printing something as basic to common knowledge but continued lieing by the press...
6. To: No. 2
Sarah B ,   U.S.A. / Israel   (12.06.10)
Oh, your poor deluded thing. The "Palestinian" problem is above all problems in your mind only. Do you really think that the world has been oblivious to "Palestinian" terror, "Palestinian" intransigence, pathetic "Palestinian" bleating and the absolute refusal of the "Palestinians" to make a single concession despite the endless concessions made by Israel and the yards of goodwill demonstrated by Israel? Oh, the world is very well aware. Face it -- the "Palestinians" are yesterday's news. Everyone knows you for what you are. You are not important to anyone. You are not a key issue to anyone; you don't even rate a footnote in passing. Whatever comments are made publicly, the simple fact of the matter is that you don't even rate a mention in private, where it really matters. The world has moved on, while the "Palestinians" continue to do what they do best -- threaten, terrorize, whine and refuse to take responsibility for anything. You have gambled your entire hand; and lost. After sixty-two years, everyone has finally written you off. Good riddance.
7. #4 Ya'aqove
Salma ,   Palestine   (12.06.10)
it won't be long time to see a Palestinian as Prime Minister in "Israel" just keep building in OUR land...okay Ya'aqove ! I would not say more taking into account your circumstances, you just took control A fire just a fire !!!!! Time & Nature are on Our Side : )
8. wrong analysis
marcus ,   nyc   (12.06.10)
Nobody ever thought arab leader had the Palestinian issue as a priority or obviously the outcome of the conflict would be different, so that's not really a shocker...still even dictators have to take their public openion into consideration even if it's in a coma... Palestinian question is the central issue because it's a fertile ground for Iran and alqaida likes to exploit it..gotta drain the swamp...also ...it the ethical moral issue to solve..for the author who cares little about ethics or rights, it will never be the central issue.
9. To: No. 7
Sarah B ,   U.S.A. / Israel   (12.06.10)
Why do you persist in engaging in stupid and worthless rhetoric rather than meaningful dialogue? You have clung to your hatred and violence and terrorism for sixty-two years -- what has it brought you? And why the tawdry reference to the fire that was likely set by Arabs? I suppose that's a good sign. You resort to cheap shots, just as the ersatz "Palestinians" have been doing for sixty-two years. That's a large part of why the ersatz "Palestinians" remain a joke. Time and nature are not on your side. Judea and Samaria will be annexed and your lot will be repatriated to Jordan. It could have worked out differently -- the Jews could have been the best -- no, the only -- friends you people have ever had. But as with everything else, you blew that, too. We are quite tired of you. You WILL have to leave. There is no room for you in Eretz Israel.
10. #2 Salma
Raphael ,   Netanya   (12.06.10)
Zuhair Muhsin, little known leader of the PLO splinter gang known as “Al Sa’iqa” (The Storm) and backed by Syria, said in a March 31, 1977 interview with the Dutch newspaper Trouw: The Palestinian people does not exist. The creation of a Palestinian state is only a means for continuing our struggle against the state of Israel for our Arab unity. In reality today there is no difference between Jordanians, Palestinians, Syrians and Lebanese. Only for political and tactical reasons do we speak today about the existence of a Palestinian people, since Arab national interests demand that we posit the existence of a distinct Palestinian people to oppose Zionism. For tactical reasons, Jordan, which is a sovereign state with defined borders, cannot raise claims to Haifa and Jaffa, while as a Palestinian, I can undoubtedly demand Haifa, Jaffa, Beer-Sheva and Jerusalem. However, the moment we reclaim our right to all of Palestine, we will not wait even a minute to unite Palestine and Jordan.
11. 'palestinians' are the largest terror association on earth .
Lee ,   Manchester UK   (12.06.10)
they only want Jewish land to dispossess the Jews, they did NOTHING with this land when under Ottoman rule they had 400 years to build upo a nation and did NOTHING. I hope and pray they never get their terror state. Infidels understand more about islam than the muslim hoards do ... they never read all of their quran as if they did they would see with their own eyes that their paedophile 'prophet' Mohammad was a Zionist.
12. #8
Israel Israeli ,   Tel Aviv   (12.06.10)
The problem of the Arab refugees caused by the Arab genocide attempt in 1948 is and always was a fake issue, invented by the Arab states to delegitimize Israel. At some moment, the issue was adopted by the extreme-Left . Iran uses the problem as a defense against Saudi aggression while they prepare their take-over. They still remember PLO units collaborating with Saddam and the Americans and one day will get their revenge. As for Al-Kaida: they only want to free Arab lands from American domination and don't really care about Israel.
13. #6 Sarah, denial is no remedy...
Nour ,   Palestine   (12.06.10)
I have noticed that all your rants against Palestinians seam to quite consistent, repetitive, and tediously boring. The truth and reality is, we haven't disappeared, and we will never disappear. This, my darling, is inspite of all your genocide and crimes agaist us the indigenous population since the 1890s. While you seam to think we are yesterday's news, world nations beg to differ and at the forefront is Brazil, a great nation which only a few days back recognized the State of Palestine and the achievments of our political leadership in the face of impossible odds and powerful lobby groups in America. Brazil today, Argentina tomorrow, and soon all latin American countries will follow and join Asia, Africa, the Middle East, Russia and Eastern Europe in recognizing Palestine as comprising 100% of the West Bank, East Jerusalem, and Gaza. A pittiful witch like you will not be able to logs in the wheel. You are powerless, and it drives you, well, bananas. You, along with the neocons and horses across the pond, will belong to a lonely, very lonely club called apartheid. My dear, it is you who is yesterday's news. The countdown to August 2010 has begun. Fasten your seatbelts, and ultimately, don't let the door hit you in the behind during your unconditional ejection from the West Bank. Remember, either way, we win. It's either our maximal state from River to Sea, or Palestine of the West Bank (which denies your phoney Juda and Shomron fantasy). Ciao fea.
14. #13 Nour ,Deep in my heart I never have any doubt,
Salma ,   Palestine   (12.06.10)
that Palestine will be free Sarah lives on the glories of the past, She thinks that the Palestinians still think with their Good Heart so they can be deceived as the Zionists did with the help of traitors Arabs in 1948 and before, NO Sarah , We've learned and we've grown up, Waiting for you to wake up from the arrogance of power.
15. the devestation of Oslo we still suffer daily
jan ,   jerusalem,Israel   (12.06.10)
So great, it's out there ,admitted and known-Oslo was a mistake. Cutting my country up into swiss cheese for what? An intifada, three terrorist gangs , and a whole lot of places that I as a Jew can no longer go. As well as promises to Arabs we can never really keep, We need a leader who can run with the truth of this mistake-maybe Mr. Peres himself as he is quite robust, and make sure it goes no further. We beleived the Arab narrative and lost our own. That is not sustainable for any country whether it be as big as the U.S. or just as tiny as Israel. If this was the wortst fire, than Oslo was the worst political disaster whose consequences still reverberate everyday.
16. To Nour & Salma
Rachel ,   US   (12.06.10)
Jordan is Palestine.
17. ??
Dave ,   Raanana   (12.06.10)
The author could twist any event to defend his original thesis about not evacuating jewish homes. Just admit this is a religious issue, don't try pretend it's strategic.
18. to #14 a heart can also deceive
ghostq   (12.06.10)
since you weren't a nation prior to the establishment of Israel, you were created by the arab world only than cause they didn't like the idea of not getting what they want, and that is total domination in ME, even though they never really owned the place, just to prove my point the grandfather of king jordan wasn't king only when British in 1914 conquered the area they decided that this Bedouin ruller aka shakh will become king by the British. so you see salma you got no past never had. and before 1948 jews still lived in Israel. no erogance, just facts.
19. :: Sarah BS contradicts her on words
Matty Groves ,   Fairport   (12.06.10)
Once again Sarah BS demonstrates how far removed from reality she is but more so how she actually disagrees with her own words . She claims that the entire world has 'written off' the Palestinians, that they are "yesterday's news" and that they are "not a key issue to anyone". Now let us take a look at reality as recognized by the world majority rather than Sarah BS's minority opinion. "Not a key issue to anyone": 1) The Arab World has made it very clear (ie: conditional) that it will consider the Arab-Israeli conflict over *only if* Israel accepts the establishment of an independent and sovereign Palestinian state in the occupied territories. 2) Palestinians currently receive more international aid and support than at any other time. 3) The largest Superpower in the world (the Obama Admin) has clearly made the resolve to the Palestinian-Israeli conflict a 'key issue'. 4) Within Israel the 'Palestinian Issue' has been and continues to be the core concern of any Israeli Gov. 5) And nobody can deny that the Palestinians continue to be core issue for the UN, EU, NGOs, HR Orgs, etc. As for yesterday's news: Only a day or two ago Brazil announced that it recognized the State of Palestine based on the pre-1967 borders. In fact it is quite rare to read any mainstream news report about Israel which does not contain mention of the Palestinians. Heck lets frame this within a logical context: if the Palestinians are "yesterday's news", "not important to anyone", "not a key issue to anyone" and "don't even rate a footnote in passing" why is it that Sarah BS can hardly go a day without mentioning the Palestinians!? Clearly the Palestinians are very important to Sarah BS as she continues to make them central to her postings here on this website.
20. To: No. 14
Sarah B ,   U.S.A. / Israel   (12.06.10)
"We've learned and we've grown up" No, you haven't. The only growth you are experiencing is that you are growing increasingly fragmented with each passing day. Sixty-two years have taught you nothing. Have you noticed how deafening the silence has been from the international community with respect to the most recent settlement freeze circus? Have you noticed that NO ONE except the discredited lame-duck American president is urging Israel to extend the freeze? Pay attention; it's kind of important. Abbas is an empty suit; he thinks he can exact more and more concessions from Israel without making any, not even the simplest request to acknowledge the right of the State of Israel to exist in its ancient homeland; or to repudiate the Fatah charter calling for the destruction of the State of Israel and the extermination and/or expulsion of the Jewish people; or to acknowledge the State of Israel as the Jewish State. Do you think his recalcitrance on this has not come to the attention of the international community? Oh, it has. Oh, it most certainly has. You do not have nearly as many friends in the world as you seem to think. On the other hand, Israel has far more friends in the world than you seem to realize. I reiterate: sixty-two years have taught you nothing, Salma. And that is really rather sad. You are, however, the architects of your condition, so I’m not all that sympathetic. You go on living your delusional fantasies. We expect nothing less; reality has never been part of the make-up of the ersatz "Palestinians." There's no reason to think that will change.
21. to #13 lol before 1890 the turks rulled the area
ghostq   (12.06.10)
IF you want to be Turkish citizen you r more than welcome, hope you understand shabtai zvi story to know that jews were in the area even back than. anyway from the river to the sea fantasy, never existed, never will, judeh was real it exist not only in jewish sources, but in other sources. herolds tomb is in the judeh desert. we all know it's there. ti hi.
22. to #12 the arabs were the one who started
ghostq   (12.06.10)
the war in 1948.
23. To: No. 14 -- Second Attempt
Sarah B ,   U.S.A. / Israel   (12.06.10)
"We've learned and we've grown up" No, you haven't. The only growth you are experiencing is that you are growing increasingly fragmented with each passing day. Sixty-two years have taught you nothing. Have you noticed how deafening the silence has been from the international community with respect to the most recent settlement freeze circus? Have you noticed that NO ONE except the discredited lame-duck American president is urging Israel to extend the freeze? Pay attention; it's kind of important. Abbas is an empty suit; he thinks he can exact more and more concessions from Israel without making any, not even the simplest request to acknowledge the right of the State of Israel to exist in its ancient homeland; or to repudiate the Fatah charter calling for the destruction of the State of Israel and the extermination and/or expulsion of the Jewish people; or to acknowledge the State of Israel as the Jewish State. Do you think his recalcitrance on this has not come to the attention of the international community? Oh, it has. Oh, it most certainly has. You do not have nearly as many friends in the world as you seem to think. On the other hand, Israel has far more friends in the world than you seem to realize. In some places that would surprise you (Did you read last week where Pakistani intelligence services tipped Israel off to a potential terrorist attack? Did you? Did you?). I reiterate: sixty-two years have taught you nothing, Salma. And that is really rather sad. You are, however, the architects of your condition, so I’m not all that sympathetic. You go on living your delusional fantasies. We expect nothing less; reality has never been part of the make-up of the ersatz "Palestinians." There's no reason to think that will change. What better proof than your silly comments on this forum?
24. To: No. 13 -- Second Attempt
Sarah B ,   U.S.A. / Israel   (12.06.10)
1. If my comments seem "quite consistent, repetitive and tediously boring" to you, just imagine how I feel at constantly having to repeat myself for the sake of the education of others. That said, how do you think the Jews feel? I assure you that we have found the ersatz "Palestinian" glorification of violence and terror and endless whining to be quite tedious indeed. Things are never your fault, are they? Don't you realize that after sixty-two years, everyone recognizes that your so-called "victimization" is exclusively of your own making? 2. Oh, no one expects you to "disappear." The Jews are not like the ersatz "Palestinians," and, unlike your lot, we do not endlessly trumpet our intent to destroy anyone. Then again, why would we? The ersatz “Palestinians” are doing a splendiferous job of self-destructing. Then again, at some point, you will have to face reality (something you have not quite managed to do for sixty-two years) and accept that your future, such as it were, rests elsewhere. 3. Brazil. A great nation. You think? A country where 1% of the people control 99% of the wealth and tens of millions of people live in favellas is not a great nation. And did you happen to glance at the international reaction to the Brazilian announcement? Laughter. You cannot recognize a state which does not exist. Moreover, what achievements of your so-called political "leadership?" Arafat (may his name be cursed throughout eternity) managed to acquire over $1 billion in wealth, while the people he purported to "represent" languished -- and continue to languish -- in displaced persons camps. His widow lives grandly in Paris, thanks to a multi-million dollar monthly stipend. Abbas has multiple lavish homes throughout Europe, several personal offshore bank accounts and a private Gulfstream jet. What's the unemployment rate in the PA, Nour? Has it reached 40% yet? I know it's been flirting with that number. And Hamas is no different. Individual unrepentant terrorists pretending to be deeply religious, while engaging actively in violence and living on the backs of the ordinary Gazan people. 4. Dream on. First of all, you are completely irrational and delusional if you think that Latin America, Asia, Africa, the Middle East, Russia and Eastern Europe are going to do what you suggest. Israel's economy has never been stronger. Latin America, Asia, Africa, Eastern Europe, Russia and even countries in the Middle East are chomping at the bit to trade with Israel (particularly in the military-industrial complex). Whatever the public perception may be, the fact of the matter is that Israel enjoys excellent relations with all of the regions you name. Israel powerless? Surely you jest. (Actually, you probably don’t which, however sad, is pretty typical of ersatz “Palestinian” flights of fancy.) 5. I don't know to break this to you, dear, but August 2010 is over and done with. As usual, the ersatz "Palestinians" are moving in reverse! Nothing new there. And just exactly who is going to "eject" Israel from anywhere? 6. Any way, you lose. You've been the same, tired old dog for nearly seventy years; cannot teach you any new tricks. Besides, those same nearly seventy years should have taught you that you are incapable of learning. Even if you have not learned, the international community surely has. All those WikiLeaks cables, all those top-secret memoranda following meetings between leading American diplomats with foreign heads of states – and nary a mention of the ersatz “Palestinians” to be had. Remember – forget public announcements. It is what is said in private that really matters. It would appear that the ersatz “Palestinians” matter to no one.
25. :: Salma - #14 - As you know...
Matty Groves ,   Fairport   (12.06.10)
...always treat Sarah BS's claims with a big pinch of salt. You know that once Sarah BS makes such an sweeping statement like this that it must be false. What she really means is "no one" except: "UN Secretary-General Ban Ki-moon called on Israel to freeze settlement activity" - 29/11/2010. Sri Lanka also called on Israel to freeze all settlement building on 29/11/2010. William Hague week restated his commitment to a new West Bank settlement freeze 11/11/2010. Germany asked US to force settlement freeze on Israel - WikiLeaks cable, 01/12/2010 "Two senior Israeli cabinet ministers warned yesterday that failure to renew the settlement construction freeze would strengthen the Palestinians and jeopardise Israel", 15/11/2010 I am sure I could cite more example but I think these 5 examples rubbishes Sarah BS's claim that "NO ONE except the discredited lame-duck American president is urging Israel to extend the freeze".
26. to 13# "indigenous population"??
ilan ,   nazareth   (12.06.10)
"palestinian" common family names: The family names of Arabs who now occupy judea reveal their country of origin: "Masri" =from Egypt-Hamas member of Parliament, Mushir al-Masri (the word "masri" littelery means "the egyption" in arabic !). "Khamis"= Bahrain "Salem Hanna Khamis" "al-Faruqi"= Mosul iraq "al-Araj" = Morocco,a member of the Saadi Dynasty "Hussein al-Araj" "al Lubnani" =the lebanese "al-Mughrabi" = the Moroccan "al-Djazair" =the Algerian "al-Yamani" = the Yemeni "al-Afghani" = the Afghan "al-Hindi" =the Indian "Iraqi" =from Iraq. "Tarabulsi"= Tarabulus-Tripoli, Lebanon. "Hourani" =Houran Syria. "al-Husayni" =saudi arabia. "Saudi" =Saudi Arabia. "Metzarwah"=egypt. "Barda­­­­­­­­­­­wil" ="salah bardawil" HAMAS legislator in gaza,egypt Bardawil lake aria. "Nashashibi" = syria. "Bushnak" =bosnia "zoabi"= from iraq "Haneen Zoabi". "Turki" =turky "Daud Turki" "al-Kurd" = kurdistan. "Haddadins" = YEMEN descended from Ghassanid Christian Arabs. "Arab Abu-Kishk" = Egypt.(Bedouins) "Arab al shakirat" = Egypt (Bedouins) "Arab al zabidat" = Egypt (Bedouins) "Arab al aramsha" = Egypt (Bedouins) "Abu Sitta" =In Arabic' Abu means father and sitta means six. Translated it actually means father of six. The Abu Sitta family primarily received this name because around the year 1700, a well known knight of the large Al-Tarabeen tribe always had six slaves (i.e. fedawyah, bodygaurds), 3 on each side, with him. They were with him wherever he went, day or night. Hence the name "ABU SITTA." =Egypt (Bedouins) "Salman Abu Sitta " Even "Arafat", the most famous fakestinian and leader of the terrorist grup the  P.L.O, is not native to judea. He called himself a "Palestinian refugee" but spoke Arabic with Egyptian dialect. He was born in 1929 Cairo, Egypt. He served in the Egyptian army, studied in the University of Cairo, and lived in Cairo until 1956 ! Arafat's full name was Mohammed Abdel Rahman Abdel Raouf Arafat al-Qudwa al-Husseini. "Al-Qudwa" tribe origin?
27. SOLUTIONS
Marcella   (12.06.10)
A "Jordan is Palestine" conference is taking place in Tel Aviv. Organized by MK Aryeh Eldad, it has the support of Geert Wilders, who gave a speech at the start of the conference. He said: " the Middle East is not a conflict over territory, but rather an ideological battle." Please check the Israel National News website for coverage. This conference is important because it focuses on solutions. Although it's important to continue to present facts and arguments against partition, it is critical now to start working on an Israeli-made solution. Being always on the defensive is detrimental to Israel's best interests.
28. #6 Who is a has been, you sitting in US or Sal in Palestine?
Ken ,   Burma   (12.06.10)
29. #9 why do you treat Salma the way most Israelis
Ken ,   Burma   (12.06.10)
believe the rest of the world treats them. Isn't that antisemetic?
30. since this is only an opinionated column,
joseph   (12.06.10)
I'll spend my 2 cents in it. Diplomats spend time spying on each other, gabbing, lying, cheating, and nothing to show for it?. I stand to reason, when one looks at the type, caliber, of US, EU, S.American imbeclies looking up for themselves, fighting for the 'garbage' called media's attention,as well as front page portraits, a la Ahmadinejad. While all they do is disseminate the latest from terrorists groups, with some cash added,and supporting a worthless, corrupt, UN guided by a disaster for a boss. It's an open secret that quite a few countries, banks, companies continue to to support Iran, and Amerca keeps pounding for more sanctions --- for the last 10 years? A monumental failure. Same as N.Korea and others who wish to have their own '" toy ". For cash, these experts can convince these greedy diplomats that the eath is flat and it will pass with a great majority. Iran,N. Korea laugh at you America, Obama, so does the rest of the world.
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